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Up date to Friday's conversation with PIP's Complaints Department.

Further to the conversation with the Complaints department and the sending of information to them over the last 2 weeks and that instead of contacting me had rank the claimant and made an offer over the phone to her which gave her back some benefits of mobility at standard rate when there was no discussion as to what I had sent.  But the claimant was happy to receive something after months of no benefits.
  In ringing back I asked why did you make an offer before sending a hard copy so that I could explain what they had offered, since she has  mental issues and does not take on board what she is being asked, and in my paperwork it stated that no offer over the phone would be excepted by the claimant and in discussing the claim would also want a hard copy to show what was discussed.
  At that time the offer was £60 week care component?
  Today after that call they rang her again and stated that they made a mistake and were now going to pay enhanced rate mobility and enhanced rate Care components back to the same period?
  Why is it so hard to get them to send a copy of the revised or any offer then ring to discuss it?
  The claimant is now happy to get the revised rates but when asked what was the end date, she did not know? 
  Still getting some where just have to wait for the letter some time this week.....
  As I have said the claimant always gets the last word and if she is happy with the paperwork sent then I will E Mail as an electronic signature to state I except on her behalf.
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Comments

  • mikehughescq
    mikehughescq Member Posts: 7,817 Disability Gamechanger
    Do you have consent from your client to post about them on a claimant oriented forum? Are you confident they’re not on here and they or others would not recognise themselves? 

    Outside of that concern, your queries are simple enough to answer. 

    Offers are made verbally because putting them in writing makes people think they have been finalised before they’ve been spoken to. The decision does not exist until the claimant has approved it. Writing to a claimant suggests they need to approve something as written. Talking to them enables them to realise they cam discuss and shape the final decision. 

    The reason DWP did not contact you is that you appear to be an informal representative. Covered very clearly in the guidance. http://data.parliament.uk/DepositedPapers/Files/DEP2021-0672/Quality_Focus_July_2021.pdf
  • onebigvoice
    onebigvoice Member Posts: 217 Courageous
    I have read the link that you have provided and it has saved me a lot of donkey work as every thing I have been saying is in that link.
      1.  As for talking about "clients"/Friends, or people that just need help and talking about their claims, they have given me permission to include their cases in a zoom meeting to be arranged with the appropriate heads of departments and if necessary will be with me to present their cases to them.
      It states in your link that you will try to contact the representative if they have one and in sending in a form with each case a signed letter included access to their medical files at their relevant surgeries since the DWP and PIP's will not show the documents used to assess them?  I have cross reference each page within the bundle that includes MRI scans and details, operation and pending operations and treatment, a full up to date prescription list and cross referenced it with the assessors report.  where it states that the claimant drove to the test centre and walked with a gait and did not seem to breathless or unsteady after walking 200 meters to the test centre reception.
      Strange it didn't say about whether she went straight into to assessment?  Or that she was told they were running late and had to wait 3/4 hour before being called or that she was driven their by her husband that attended ( No mention of him in the report) or that she was in a wheel chair?
      Do you still think I want to have that assessment report logged onto her medical history?  Yes please' OH that's right they can write and give you a medical but can't show any I D or enter the report into the medical history.
      I asked for a copy on Friday of the conversation they had with her in the morning, and they rang in the afternoon ( her) and give back a benefits decision with payments to be in within 48 Hours?  Where was I in all this?  Monday morning waiting for a copy they said they sent first class Friday, she had another TXT from them saying they have reviewed their decision and have now decided to give Enhanced Rates for both PIP's?  So did she receive a hard copy of the agreement for her to sign?, NO.  So if they thought the decision on Friday was correct why did they review there decision before even sending out the reason for the first change? 
      I have just read the link and will now quote this i the two documents going to the Tribunal and one to the DWP/PIP's on another case and ask why is this document not being followed it makes my life easier.
      Since I note it has a parliamentary department link, can I use this or do I need permission to include this link?  
  • onebigvoice
    onebigvoice Member Posts: 217 Courageous
    http://data.parliament.uk/DepositedPapers/Files/DEP2021-0672/Quality_Focus_July_2021.pdf
      As a further comment on this great link who is the writer of this link document?
    Is it some one from the DWP?  As I see no departmental details?
  • onebigvoice
    onebigvoice Member Posts: 217 Courageous
    @mikehughescq,  Thank you for that link, and I know I have replied, but this link was so interesting to me, that is have included it in the Zoom notes that I am writing in Power Point, if that's O K.  As another point of interest in cross referencing that document and its content, I thought you might like to look at these links to information already provided by the parliamentary published documents:
    PIP's Assessment Guide - Part three, Health Profession Performance. 
    Page 148/149 Continuation.
    Correctness.
    3.10.13  Correctness embraces a number of Principles:
    Completeness.
    3.10.15
    Fact verses opinion.  ( a must read, but the whole document must be read)
    3.10.16.
    3.10.19  Opinion of a Third Party.  ( where HP evaluates another HP opinion, and that one criteria is that the original opinion must be MEDICALLY REASONABLE, as unsupported opinions carry NO WEIGHT.
    Page 150.
    3.11  This is a sample of an Quality Audit Performance format.
    Key at top gives rating to each opinion, Information Gathering, Further Evidence, Process.
    these are:
    A -  Acceptable.
    AF - Acceptable with feed back.
    AN - Acceptable with feed back.
    U - Unacceptable. : 

      These are some of the links I use:  But are not only restricted to these as on the back of every Tribunal notice may be 6 links used by DWP in their assessment process, like the 2013 Social Security Act, and Data Protection Act to name some.
      If you want me to show those links I can by all means, 

  • calcotti
    calcotti Member Posts: 3,372 Disability Gamechanger
    http://data.parliament.uk/DepositedPapers/Files/DEP2021-0672/Quality_Focus_July_2021.pdf
      As a further comment on this great link who is the writer of this link document?
    Is it some one from the DWP?  As I see no departmental details?
    This is one of many papers deposited by DWP in the House of Commons library (strictly speaking I think they are deposited by the Secretary of State). It is very irritating that they never include any reference highlighting this nor any date saying when they were last revised.
    Information I post is for England unless otherwise stated. Rules may be different in other parts of UK.
  • mikehughescq
    mikehughescq Member Posts: 7,817 Disability Gamechanger
    @onebigvoice the link I posted is the new guidance for DWP DMs. Already more breached than observed. 

    The HCP guidance is something I’m fully familiar with thank you. I and others have posted it repeatedly on here. Unfortunately you did not post a link. For anyone interested it can be found at https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/personal-independence-payment-assessment-guide-for-assessment-providers.

    The HCP guidance is useful for front line staff or relatives wishing to support claimants at assessments but at the end of the day it is guidance. It needs to be taken account of but there’s no requirement to follow it slavishly.

    The amount of energy you pour into your approach is however utterly misguided. Must be more than a hundred threads on here pertaining to the fact that the best approach is to:

    - not get a copy of the HCP report as it can be misleading as to the decision and also exacerbate claimant distress.
    - if needed, and it often really isn’t, highlight two or three (at most) irrefutable errors within the HCP report and stop there. 
    - finding 50+ errors in a report helps no-one. The report will not be removed from evidence. At best it will be given less weight. However, it is still weighed and it’s what it’s weighed against which matters. If the evidence for a PIP award is poor in the first place then the claim will still fail even if a report has 100s of errors.
    - anecdotal evidence gets PIP awards rather than rubbishing a HCP or their report.
  • onebigvoice
    onebigvoice Member Posts: 217 Courageous
    @mikehughescq,  Thanks again I forgot to mention that this document was written and updated PIP's Assessment Guide - Part three, Health Profession Performance. on 17th May 2021. and is 33 pages.
    Page 148/149 Continuation.
    Correctness.
    3.10.13  Correctness embraces a number of Principles:
    Completeness.
    3.10.15
    Fact verses opinion.  ( a must read, but the whole document must be read)
    3.10.16.
    3.10.19  Opinion of a Third Party.  ( where HP evaluates another HP opinion, and that one criteria is that the original opinion must be MEDICALLY REASONABLE, as unsupported opinions carry NO WEIGHT.
    Page 150.
    3.11  This is a sample of an Quality Audit Performance format.
    Key at top gives rating to each opinion, Information Gathering, Further Evidence, Process.
    these are:
    A -  Acceptable.
    AF - Acceptable with feed back.
    AN - Acceptable with feed back.
    U - Unacceptable.  

      
     

  • calcotti
    calcotti Member Posts: 3,372 Disability Gamechanger
    I am sure Mike is quite familiar with the PIP Assessment Guide.
    Information I post is for England unless otherwise stated. Rules may be different in other parts of UK.
  • mikehughescq
    mikehughescq Member Posts: 7,817 Disability Gamechanger
    @onebigvoice I simply don't see the relevance. Your approach to PIP claims focuses on the HCP report. It is poor practice and you could save 90% of your time and energy by focusing on the thing which PIP is actually about i.e. the consequences of health conditions as applied to descriptors and as demonstrated by anecdotal evidence. 

  • onebigvoice
    onebigvoice Member Posts: 217 Courageous
    @mikehughescq,  Thank you for that link, and I know I have replied, before and am sure that you are well conversant with not only this link but like me many others as well.  I am not here to cause problems as we are all looking for the same result, and if your way suits you and you get results that you need then who am I to argue.  Its that what I do works for me.
      As a recent statement and email:
    I have had an E-Mail from Stephen Doughty MP's office and from Ruba his secretary who is also an A.M.  about the Zoom Meeting request I asked for last week, and its now on for Tomorrow 2.30pm the content to be discussed tonight and early morning as some documents will be sent to him E-Mail.
       As for your comment:
      The HCP guidance is useful for front line staff or relatives wishing to support claimants at assessments but at the end of the day it is guidance. It needs to be taken account of but there’s no requirement to follow it slavishly.
      Documents are at the end of the day is for guidance.
    An observation:  When you enter a building or work place you are given guidance for fire safety and what to do in case of a fire, this guidance would also show the quickest exit route or if the fire is in front of the exit route where the next exit is and of course the assembly point when a head count is taken, as a basic document, and I do know its more involved 
      This document is law and would only come into place should it be needed.  If you state that you are  working in a place that has not given you this safety talk, can this document still be used when the HSE come in to find out how people were injured in a fire?   Yes, so it's not just guidance.
      

  • onebigvoice
    onebigvoice Member Posts: 217 Courageous

      

      focusing on the thing which PIP is actually about i.e. the consequences of health conditions as applied to descriptors and "as demonstrated by anecdotal evidence."

      
    anecdote
    [ˈanɪkdəʊt]
    NOUN
    1. a short amusing or interesting story about a real incident or person.
      "he told anecdotes about his job"
      synonyms:
      • an account regarded as unreliable or hearsay.
        "his wife's death has long been the subject of rumour and anecdote"
      • the depiction of a minor narrative incident in a painting.
        "the use of inversions of hierarchy, anecdote, and paradox by Magritte, Dali, and others"
        
    I'm talking about facts?  and don't need to use Anecdotal evidence.
      There HCP assessor completed a medical examination after he assessed mental and Spinal functions even though he scored Zero and my doctor had been treating me for a collapsing spine and had been sectioned twice?  Not mentioned in the reports or any medical evidence he had?
      Is this what you mean?
  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Member Posts: 24,773 Disability Gamechanger
    If you continue to focus on the assessors report you will continue to have issues and by doing so could seriously damage your case. This has been said multiple times to you accross many different threads.
    Anecdotal evidence has got me 3 paper based assessments since April 2020. Two were for PIP and one was for work capability assessment.
  • calcotti
    calcotti Member Posts: 3,372 Disability Gamechanger
    1. a short amusing or interesting story about a real incident or person.
      "he told anecdotes about his job"
      synonyms:
      • an account regarded as unreliable or hearsay.
        "his wife's death has long been the subject of rumour and anecdote"
      • the depiction of a minor narrative incident in a painting.
        "the use of inversions of hierarchy, anecdote, and paradox by Magritte, Dali, and others"
    i suggest the relevant bit is interesting story about a real incident.
    Information I post is for England unless otherwise stated. Rules may be different in other parts of UK.
  • mikehughescq
    mikehughescq Member Posts: 7,817 Disability Gamechanger
    You have still failed to grasp that medical facts are things like diagnosis, prognosis, symptoms, treatments etc. PIP is not determined by any of those issues and it’s rare that DWP dispute any of those things. You’ve certainly not presented any argument that they were. You don’t need a diagnosis for PIP; a prognosis may help with a review date but symptoms etc. tell you a very limited amount about functional ability. 

    You get PIP by showing you cannot reliably perform set activities. The best way to do that is simply through anecdotal evidence i.e. detailed real world stories of what happened. I’m quite happy to go on record and say that legally you have literally no idea what you’re talking about when you try to distinguish fact from anecdotal evidence. They are one and the same. That is not my opinion. It is a legal fact. PIP is not detained by medical fact. It is determined by fact from whatever source. Facts are determined on the balance of probabilities thus powerful, detailed anecdotal evidence will usually outweigh most other evidence regardless of source. Again, not an opinion on my part. It’s what tribunals do 5 days pw.

    I can’t even begin to respond to your weird analogy with H&S guidance. The AP guidance is not law and never will be. It is guidance. It says it’s guidance and the law says it’s guidance. 

    I note your comment about doing “what works”. To be honest I find it staggering. The thing you’re doing has clearly failed for you every step of the way. Every step. Your case has nothing extraordinary or unjust about it. You got a HCP report you didn’t like and have obsessed on that rather than focusing on proving your case for PIP. Hundreds of posts like yours on here albeit not from people claiming to be representatives.

    And again, for completeness and accuracy please do not misleadingly post that your HCP completed a medical assessment. They did not. They completed a functional assessment. An entirely different thing. 
  • onebigvoice
    onebigvoice Member Posts: 217 Courageous
    So what gives the HCP ( un-named in the report as to any medical background) the ability to complete a Functional Assessment when the person suffers from Rheumatoid and Osteo Arthritis, all over, has walking problems, has balance problems to operations that went wrong, and has a collapsing spine all medically assessed by the NHS and 3 MRI scans, the need for an HCP ( theirs ) to complete another Functional assessment when its all in their medical history for "every one to see?"
      I will not let anyone examine me if I feel uncomfortable, or I have not been sent to them from a referral by some one that is going to help with fixing me.
      This assessment as you say is for access to benefits only.  If he wants to examine me then show me some ID as I am not a performing money for some ones amusement, I have lost all grip in both hands, yet in reading the notes he wants to perform a grip test which is painful enough to type this.
      For what purpose?  Scored me zero.  Walking, I had a home assessment and asked Capita to make sure that the person they send has I D as they will not be let in. due to a spat of robberies, where two people claiming to be reading the gas and electric meters gain access and one want the loo as its been a hard day, and the y are both offered a cuppa, when the leave the room the one up stairs searches for  anything in the bedrooms, and the other raids the living room grabbing jewellery and cash lying round mine when I finally let him in as he said check the register which I did, he slammed the computer onto my fingers and said if your going to do that I will close your claim down when I get back.  Which he did.
      His listing was on the computer and said must not assess until the registration process is completed dated 2010.  In ringing them they stated that they were not on any registration list and had paid an initial fee to get his name on the register but should not be using that title as he has NO I D.
       I challenge any report written by Capita,  Maximus, Concentrix or ATOS, as to the Secretary of State approving the assessors hired by the company on behalf of the Secretary of State to show a proper justified report which also shows what is Medical Fact, ( including their assessment) and what is their opinion, and since its not a medical does the report com under what is their OPINION?
      Because what is the point of hiring them for their medical expertise to write a report for the decision maker for clarity if when asked to produce a simple I D they can't or won't so how is that supposed to support a decision maker who has no medical background?
      Tell me if the Assessment completed by their assessor is a legal document that can be used by the DWP?
      Do not say you don't understand my question since it is this document or report that is used by the decision maker?  

      
  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Member Posts: 24,773 Disability Gamechanger
    So what gives the HCP ( un-named in the report as to any medical background) the ability to complete a Functional Assessment when the person suffers from Rheumatoid and Osteo Arthritis, all over, has walking problems, has balance problems to operations that went wrong, and has a collapsing spine all medically assessed by the NHS and 3 MRI scans, the need for an HCP ( theirs ) to complete another Functional assessment when its all in their medical history for "every one to see?"

    Medical evidence is of very little use for a PIP claim unless it states exactly how your conditions affect you and most medical evidence doesn't. This has been advised many many times to you by various members of the community. I'm still at a loss why you insist on saying otherwise.
    A PIP assessment is not a medical and they don't "examine" anyone during any assessment.
    You can have a disability but if you don't fit the descriptors, you won't score the points needed for an award, it's as simple as that! There are people that just don't qualify and it doesn't matter how many times they apply, they will have constant refusals.

  • mikehughescq
    mikehughescq Member Posts: 7,817 Disability Gamechanger
    With all due respect we’re going round in a very small circle here. You see and seem keen to engage and do battle with complexity where there is literally none. 

    From the top, once more with feeling. 

    - a PIP assessment is not a medical. It is an assessment of the functional ability to reliably perform a prescribed set of activities. See 1.2.1 and 1.2.2 in the guidance you’re fond of citing. Also 1.6.1. You will see no reference to medical assessment and we’re now at the point when you’re potentially making a fool of yourself by publicly making an assertion that most posters, expert or otherwise, on this site plus the administrators know to be untrue. 

    Disseminating false information is ultimately dangerous. Only fair therefore to alert you that the next time you make this false assertion on this site I will not comment publicly but I will report it and ask for it to be taken down.

    - ergo a HCP does not have to be medically qualified and is not completing a medical report. 1.6 in the guidance outlines the role of a HCP. The word “medical does not occur once. So no they have not been hired for medical expertise because that’s not needed. Yes, they have been hired to form and express an opinion. Similarly a DM requires no medical qualifications or experience because they are not making g a medical decision. They are only making a decision on functional ability. 

    - a list of your medical conditions is irrelevant for PIP. PIP firstly does not require a diagnosis and secondly that list tells a HCP and a DM literally nothing about the “functional ability to reliably perform a prescribed set of activities”. That’s why medical records detailing your conditions etc. are not relevant.        

    - a HCP cannot medically examine you. They can perform functional testing which requires a consent separate to that which allows to conduct the functional assessment. Their own guidance, which you’re so keen to tell the likes of me about but don’t actually appear to understand, makes it clear that functional examination is only appropriate where no data is available. Why on earth would no data be available? It should all be in the PIP2 form completed by you. 

    - ergo a grip test will only be requested if you’ve not provided sufficient evidence on the point in your PIP 2. The “purpose” will be to ascertain information you’ve neglected to give them. If the evidence is there in the PIP 2  then simply don’t consent to the request. It’s not rocket science. As you were scored zero I would think it self-evident that you were deemed to have provided insufficient information on your and then declined to allow them to gather the data via a functional grip test. Thus you left them little option but zero. You need to make the case and you didn’t.

    - it is absolutely reasonable to request ID from any visitor to your home but non-essential as Capita have a system whereby you give them a safe word or phrase and your HCP repeats it on arrival. The guidance again makes it clear that a HCP must introduce themselves but there is no requirement for them to refer to ID, qualifications etc. Name and HCP will suffice. Your attempts to suggest otherwise are disingenuous and specious. They are not performing medicals; do not need to be medically qualified and are not governed by any NHS or other rules which you claim apply. Claiming that they lack the right to produce a report because they lack ID is just nonsense. Again, you are posting false information. Next time out I will report that also. 

    - I absolutely understand your question about the status of the HCP report. It is a question founded on a series of basic facts about the PIP process you have repeatedly gotten wrong. 

    For clarity, no, the HCP report is not a legal document but nor does it have to be, and, nor does that make it on any way illegal. It is also not a medical report. It is a report on functional ability at the end of which the HCP makes recommendations which are no more than informed opinion. That’s informed mostly by what you did or didn’t fill in on your PIP 2 and what you did or didn’t say at the assessment. Once completed it goes to a DM who, as previously described, weights it as once piece of evidence amongst possibly many; then has to decide what is or isn’t fact and then has to apply law to those facts. DMs often give little weight to the HCP report both in making awards as well as refusing them. The day a DM refuses to entertain a HCP report because of some spurious point about ID I will eat my own head and implode. 

    For the sake of all concerned reading these tedious threads please try and make factual points. If you continue to post facts which are demonstrably wrong then from this point forward I think you leave us all little choice but to report those matters. 
  • onebigvoice
    onebigvoice Member Posts: 217 Courageous
    Medical evidence is of very little use for a PIP claim unless it states exactly how your conditions affect you and most medical evidence doesn't. This has been advised many many times to you by various members of the community. I'm still at a loss why you insist on saying otherwise.
    A PIP assessment is not a medical and they don't "examine" anyone during any assessment.
    You can have a disability but if you don't fit the descriptors, you won't score the points needed for an award, it's as simple as that! There are people that just don't qualify and it doesn't matter how many times they apply, they will have constant refusals.

      I do not wish to keep going round in circles with either of you, but does this mean that if I have a Disability that does not fit a descriptor then I don't have a disability?  Or that be sending in 3 MRI scans prior to an operation and 168 page of the results to the surgeon stating the extent of the full body scan which also detailed a collapsing spine and suggestions to which part of the spine to operate on first, or that the blood functions tests (along with the MRI scan) that stated shadows on the liver and functions meant also an operation required, does not count because on the day of the Function ability test/interview, it did not show as outward signs?
      Or the the E Mail in the right of access Bundle that an E Mail stated remove all of my medical history prior to the date before a second assessment for benefits in a MONTH, because they stated that they had lost my medical files, but were sent recorded delivery and signed for, produced at the Tribunal with the Secretary of State having the same bundle and referenced by me could not answer?
      Or the six bullet points raised by the panel member for the respondent to answer within 21 days or sooner information, that they did not bother to reply to and were given an extension to that time of another month and did not answer that, and still have not answered, or the doctor and his report issued by the court to examine me and supply that report to the court with in 10 days of the listing in 2015 giving me back Enhanced rates for both, so that the DWP could remove my benefits again while they checked that doctors reports?  ( The tribunal and that doctor scored me 29 points, which the DWP ignored and still removed my benefits within a month?  for what reason?  NONE give except to check information supplied by the Tribunal.) 
      I have believe it or not complied with every request that I have had to supply information about me and others, but still score ZERO in the out set, with the assessment or their HCP's 
      One final question if the HCP's report is an opinion and medical evidence is of little use in a PIP's claim unless it states exactly how your condition affects you why send in any evidence? or in sending in evidence that a HCP is going to form his own opinion of any way which is what the decision maker will also do why not just give them access to your medical history and ask them to contact the people that treat you, since you may have more that one problem and would it not be better to ask the people that treat you how it affects you daily or your GP that issues you with a monthly script, what is wrong as I have to have a monthly Blood test BEFORE I can have my script issued.
      That's my opinion.

      Last statement:  There are people that just don't qualify and it doesn't matter how many times they apply, they will have constant refusals
       Does this come under hidden illnesses?  If you don't look ill then you can't be ill?  The descriptors say you don't fit our criteria for access to benefits, even when now other things like Fibromyalgia are now being included?
  • calcotti
    calcotti Member Posts: 3,372 Disability Gamechanger
    edited November 25
    onebigvoice said:  I do not wish to keep going round in circles with either of you, but does this mean that if I have a Disability that does not fit a descriptor then I don't have a disability?  
    Of course it doesn’t - but it does mean that’s you will not get any points for it and therefore will not get PIP unless you qualify for sufficient points another way.
    onebigvoice said:  The descriptors say you don't fit our criteria for access to benefits, even when now other things like Fibromyalgia are now being included?
    Not at all clear what you mean by this. Fibromyalgia impacts a person’s ability to carry out the prescribed activities to the required standard, therefore points can be scored and an award made.
    Information I post is for England unless otherwise stated. Rules may be different in other parts of UK.
  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Member Posts: 24,773 Disability Gamechanger
     The descriptors say you don't fit our criteria for access to benefits, even when now other things like Fibromyalgia are now being included?

    PIP isn't awarded based on any diagnosis, yet again this has been said here constantly. There's lots of people awarded PIP because of the way they are affected by fibrmyalgia, including myself and i've been claiming since 2013, with no problems at all.

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