Permitted Work - varied earnings.

darinfan

Hi all.  New here, so bear with me.  I've had a bit of a trawl through previous threads, but not quite found the answer I'm looking for.  So, hopefully someone here will be able to give guidance, as I'm sure someone will have experienced a similar situation. 

I'm on ESA (support), and I write books (self-published).  I was told at the job centre that if my earnings didn't go over £20 a week, I was in the clear.  Didn't need to worry.  A couple of occasions they went over by a fiver and I didn't worry about it, as I knew it wasn't a trend.  But now they're creeping over £20 a week on a regular basis, and I need to do something about it.  I've tried constantly to keep my earnings under by making sure I earn as little as possible from each book sold (just to make life simple!), but now I need to kick myself in the backside and stop that and apply for it to come under permitted work.

The thing that has always put me off is the disruption to routine.  I have bipolar as well as severe arthritis, and my bipolar hates changes to routine!  So, my earnings would obviously vary each week - although I never foresee it going over £152 a week (I wish!).  And my hours aren't a problem.  I only write for an hour or so each day.  I have had some advice from the CAB - saying my hours would be averaged out over several weeks anyway, and my earnings would probably be averaged out over a longer period of time (they suggested a year!).  That's all fine.  

But I have two questions that are important for me due to stress levels etc.

1.)  Would I have to send evidence of my earnings in some way each week or each month?  How would that be done - through a print out of what money I've made, or a copy of a bank statement etc?  

2.)  And this is the important one!  Will the regularity of my ESA payments be disrupted?  I've never had a delayed payment in five years.  And I don't know how I would cope with payments being delayed or stalled because of the processing of the info I have to send every week/month/whatever.  That would send my bipolar crashing through the roof, I think.  

So has anyone else been in a similar varied-earnings situation, and how did it work in practice - because that's the bit that none of the guidance seems to tell us!

I'm aware that we're all going to be moved across to UC at some point - although I retire in 20 years, and at this rate it might not have happened by then anyway!  But I think if I can work up my income before that move, it will help me anyway.  I'd love to see if I can eventually make a living from it.  But, right now, I can't even "see what happens" unless I apply for the permitted work upper limit. 

Many thanks for reading that essay and any shared experiences and help!

darinfan

Sorry, not meaning to bump, but thought I could edit what I wrote yesterday.  So, another question:  how long does the processing of a PW1 form for permitted work take?  I'm assuming it's not very long considering people sending it in are hoping to start work?

poppy123456

I don't know what you mean by "£20 per week earnings" this doesn't apply when claiming ESA. If you're the main claimant then permitted work rules apply and you mustn't earning anymore than £152/week.

As self employed you will need to report your earnings and expenses, most likely each year. I'm not familiar with self employed and permitted work rules.

It may take a few weeks for the PW1 form.

calcotti

poppy123456 said:

I don't know what you mean by "£20 per week earnings" this doesn't apply when claiming ESA.. 

£20 applies to Supported Work earnings limit but was rendered largely irrelevant when the general PW rules were relaxed several years ago.

darinfan

calcotti said:

poppy123456 said:

I don't know what you mean by "£20 per week earnings" this doesn't apply when claiming ESA.. 

£20 applies to Supported Work earnings limit but was rendered largely irrelevant when the general PW rules were relaxed several years ago.

I was told by the job centre that anything under £20 was fine - but yes, that was quite a while back, when I first claimed.  If that has changed or wasn't right, I hope they're not going to ask me to repay it all!!!

Are there many cases where permitted work is refused (when it wasn't breaking the 16 hour/£152 a week rule)?  I haven't found any examples online, and I'm assuming somebody's forum post about being refused would appear in a search at some point!

calcotti

They can’t refuse it - it’s permitted if it meets the rules. 

darinfan

calcotti said:

They can’t refuse it - it’s permitted if it meets the rules. 

Thank you.  Once everything goes through fine (fingers crossed), I'll try to make a post on here somewhere saying how it worked out, as there's lots of queries on forums from people asking these questions about how craft and creative self-employment works, but very few answers or follow-ups to say what happened.  Hopefully any such post will then crop up in a Google search.  

Tori_Scope

That'd be great @darinfan As you've said, we do occasionally get people posting about this. So I'm sure people would find it helpful to read your story.

darinfan

Well, it's all filled in now, and when I needed more space to explain (such as varied earnings), I've directed them to the info I've included in a covering letter.  I can't see any other way to cover that, as there's no room on the form.  Wish me luck!  I'm hoping for a nice Christmas present from them!  And thanks for everyone's help.

L_Volunteer

Glad to hear it's all filled in now @darinfan - that sounds really positive. I am also glad to hear that when you needed more space to explain you directed them to the info you've included in a covering letter. 

It sounds like you did what you needed to do, especially given the lack of room on the form. Wishing you the best of luck with this.

Please feel free to let us know how it goes and if you need any further support. We are all here for you and listening to you 

darinfan

L_Volunteer said:

Glad to hear it's all filled in now @darinfan - that sounds really positive. I am also glad to hear that when you needed more space to explain you directed them to the info you've included in a covering letter. 

It sounds like you did what you needed to do, especially given the lack of room on the form. Wishing you the best of luck with this.

Please feel free to let us know how it goes and if you need any further support. We are all here for you and listening to you 

Thank you.  I'm never quite sure if giving more information is better or worse!  My biggest fear is that writing and self-publishing won't count as permitted work - but I have yet to see any evidence online that it won't, or that many people get refused despite sticking within the 16 hour/52 week limit.  I understand entertainers are exempt from doing permitted work, but that's all I've found out in regards to refusals.  
I even found a copy online of the form letter that is sent out if permitted work is refused, and there's no option on there for "this isn't what we class as work" or "we don't like your occupation!" There were only four options on that letter:  earning too much, working too many hours, both of those together, and a final option dating back to when permitted work was only 52 weeks.  

As you may gather, I am utterly paranoid!

darinfan

I had to ring up ESA today over something completely different.  70 minute queue on the phone, got through, then got cut off.  And had to do it all again!  But once I finally spoke to someone, I completed the other business first and then just checked with her that the PW1 hadn't been dealt with yet - I thought I might as well, just in case.  She said that it hadn't, but then she said that I wouldn't hear anything at from them until I had been at work a month or two so they could see if my hours and earnings were working out as I said.  I'm well aware this is incorrect, but it's rather frightening that this kind of advice is being given out.  What if I had assumed that was correct, and started work, and then got a "no" from the DM?  It would have been a right mess.  

poppy123456

For permitted work you do not need to wait for DWP to agree because it's unlikley they will refuse. You've already been doing permitted work anyway by earning that small amount of money. You need to tell them you're working regardless of how small your earnings are.

It may take quite sometime for DWP to contact you anyway. Providing your earnings do not go over the limit then it will be fine. There's no work you can or can't do providing you keep within the rules.

darinfan

poppy123456 said:

For permitted work you do not need to wait for DWP to agree because it's unlikley they will refuse. You've already been doing permitted work anyway by earning that small amount of money. You need to tell them you're working regardless of how small your earnings are.

It may take quite sometime for DWP to contact you anyway. Providing your earnings do not go over the limit then it will be fine. There's no work you can or can't do providing you keep within the rules.

Thanks.  The odd thing is that the woman at the job centre told me I didn't need to inform anyone as long as the earnings were under £20. 

poppy123456

darinfan said:

poppy123456 said:

For permitted work you do not need to wait for DWP to agree because it's unlikley they will refuse. You've already been doing permitted work anyway by earning that small amount of money. You need to tell them you're working regardless of how small your earnings are.

It may take quite sometime for DWP to contact you anyway. Providing your earnings do not go over the limit then it will be fine. There's no work you can or can't do providing you keep within the rules.

Thanks.  The odd thing is that the woman at the job centre told me I didn't need to inform anyone as long as the earnings were under £20. 

Then they were incorrect with their advice. It's still classed as permitted work.

darinfan

poppy123456 said:

darinfan said:

poppy123456 said:

For permitted work you do not need to wait for DWP to agree because it's unlikley they will refuse. You've already been doing permitted work anyway by earning that small amount of money. You need to tell them you're working regardless of how small your earnings are.

It may take quite sometime for DWP to contact you anyway. Providing your earnings do not go over the limit then it will be fine. There's no work you can or can't do providing you keep within the rules.

Thanks.  The odd thing is that the woman at the job centre told me I didn't need to inform anyone as long as the earnings were under £20. 

Then they were incorrect with their advice. It's still classed as permitted work.

I wonder how we would stand if we were "caught" doing something wrong because of their incorrect advice! 

calcotti

darinfan said:

I wonder how we would stand if we were "caught" doing something wrong because of their incorrect advice! 

I don’t think there is actually anything in the regulations that requires you to notify them.

darinfan

calcotti said:

darinfan said:

I wonder how we would stand if we were "caught" doing something wrong because of their incorrect advice! 

I don’t think there is actually anything in the regulations that requires you to notify them.

I find the wording in the govt websites very odd.

Take the words used on the government page where you access the form is slightly strange, I think:

"If you’re claiming ESA, fill in the permitted work form before you start any paid or unpaid work.
Post it to the address at the top of any ESA letters we have sent you. Please do not take this form into your Jobcentre Plus office.
You could lose your benefit if you do any kind of work that doesn’t meet the conditions."

That final line that I put in bold suggests that the PW1 is merely a check to make sure you're not doing work you shouldn't, rather than saying you can't work without sending it in.  

And on their factsheet about permitted work, it's even more confusing:

Before you start any work, whether paid or unpaid, you should fill in a PW1 form. Post it to the address at the top of any ESA letters we have sent you. Please do not take this form into your Jobcentre Plus office.
We will then let you know if the work you want to do meets the permitted work conditions. If you do any kind of work that doesn’t meet the conditions, you could lose your benefit.
If you can’t tell us before you start work, you should fill in a PW1 form and send it as soon as possible after starting work.
If you don’t tell Jobcentre Plus straightaway about any work that you are doing, then you could be paid more ESA than you should. The law states we can take back any money we shouldn’t have paid you and you may have to pay a financial penalty on top of this amount.

It uses the word "should" fill in the form instead of "must."  I find that really odd.  And then the final paragraph ("if you don't tell Jobcentre Plus straightaway...") again suggests that the form is more to verify what you're doing is within the rules, and you won't be paid too much money from DWP, rather than the form being an absolute necessity.  

For a website from the govt, I find it appalling that the words used could be misconstrued or interpreted in different ways.  I would think that any legal case or sanctions brought against someone who failed to fill in the form and yet had been working within the remits of permitted work could be successfully challenged. 

It's actually this site and entitledto that use the word "must" in their instructions to fill in the form before starting work.  Even in the DMG, there is not even a mention of the form that I can find, other than within examples related to Supported Permitted Work. 

And what's the point in submitting the form if they don't get back to you by the time you're likely to start work?  And, while I am overjoyed to be in the support group, I don't think I've ever been contacted by the DWP other than updates on increases to benefits or reassessments.  There's absolutely no point of contact with them to talk about any issues that may arise (such as this query about Permitted work).  Don't get me wrong, I don't want to be carting off to the jobcentre every week or fortnight, but you'd think there would be contact once or twice a year.  

Sorry all of that is a little off-topic, but I find the whole thing somewhat mindboggling at the almost amateur way in which the DWP is set up and the wording of their factsheets and websites etc.  

darinfan

calcotti said:

darinfan said:

I wonder how we would stand if we were "caught" doing something wrong because of their incorrect advice! 

I don’t think there is actually anything in the regulations that requires you to notify them.

I find the wording in the govt websites very odd.

Take the words used on the government page where you access the form is slightly strange, I think:

"If you’re claiming ESA, fill in the permitted work form before you start any paid or unpaid work.
Post it to the address at the top of any ESA letters we have sent you. Please do not take this form into your Jobcentre Plus office.
You could lose your benefit if you do any kind of work that doesn’t meet the conditions."

That final line that I put in bold suggests that the PW1 is merely a check to make sure you're not doing work you shouldn't, rather than saying you can't work without sending it in.  

And on their factsheet about permitted work, it's even more confusing:

Before you start any work, whether paid or unpaid, you should fill in a PW1 form. Post it to the address at the top of any ESA letters we have sent you. Please do not take this form into your Jobcentre Plus office.
We will then let you know if the work you want to do meets the permitted work conditions. If you do any kind of work that doesn’t meet the conditions, you could lose your benefit.
If you can’t tell us before you start work, you should fill in a PW1 form and send it as soon as possible after starting work.
If you don’t tell Jobcentre Plus straightaway about any work that you are doing, then you could be paid more ESA than you should. The law states we can take back any money we shouldn’t have paid you and you may have to pay a financial penalty on top of this amount.

It uses the word "should" fill in the form instead of "must."  I find that really odd.  And then the final paragraph ("if you don't tell Jobcentre Plus straightaway...") again suggests that the form is more to verify what you're doing is within the rules, and you won't be paid too much money from DWP, rather than the form being an absolute necessity.  

For a website from the govt, I find it appalling that the words used could be misconstrued or interpreted in different ways.  I would think that any legal case or sanctions brought against someone who failed to fill in the form and yet had been working within the remits of permitted work could be successfully challenged. 

It's actually this site and entitledto that use the word "must" in their instructions to fill in the form before starting work.  Even in the DMG, there is not even a mention of the form that I can find, other than within examples related to Supported Permitted Work. 

And what's the point in submitting the form if they don't get back to you by the time you're likely to start work?  And, while I am overjoyed to be in the support group, I don't think I've ever been contacted by the DWP other than updates on increases to benefits or reassessments.  There's absolutely no point of contact with them to talk about any issues that may arise (such as this query about Permitted work).  Don't get me wrong, I don't want to be carting off to the jobcentre every week or fortnight, but you'd think there would be contact once or twice a year.  

Sorry all of that is a little off-topic, but I find the whole thing somewhat mindboggling at the almost amateur way in which the DWP is set up and the wording of their factsheets and websites etc.  

calcotti

darinfan said: I would think that any legal case or sanctions brought against someone who failed to fill in the form and yet had been working within the remits of permitted work could be successfully challenged. . 

There will not be any penalty if the work is within the PW rules. The PW1 form is an administrative matter. If ESA discovered a claimant is working and had not received PW1 they might suspend the claim while making enquiries.

darinfan

Hi again, all.  I promised that I would return and give an update when I had one.  I rang the DWP today, and was told that a decision was made yesterday to approve my permitted work as a writer.  I don't have the letter yet, and that might even be the new year due to strikes, but at least I know. 

I have just written a short letter to the DWP, confirming that my new start date is January 1st.  I originally put an earlier date on the form, but then got cold feet as I didn't yet know for certain that my work would be permitted, and I would rather be safe than sorry - and the hours I would have submitted for December would have been zero anyway.

I hope that writing this follow-up message on here will help someone else looking to do the same thing find a definitive answer that, yes, writing DOES count as permitted work (in my case, at least).

I would like to thank all of you who contributed to this thread for your time and help and reassurance.  It has been much appreciated.  Happy Christmas to everyone, and have a great new year.