PIP refused with zero points after assessor lied!! MR upheld original decision!

ScrFta · November 2018

Hi, I registered here after reading through many of the stories and it appears to be quite common what my partner is being put through.

I'll try to be as brief as I can but apologise for rambling on.

My partner has suffered with anxiety, depression, agoraphobia and many other stress related conditions for most of her adult life now, she is currently 43 years old and it started when she was 17.
We took the decision to apply for PIP this year because she has gotten worse in the last two years, only being able to leave the house on a handful of occasions, every time I have to accompany her and coax her beforehand. She is unable to socialise at all, rarely contacts anybody outside of immediate family who she lives with and never speaks to anybody she doesn't know.
Because she does not go out at all her physical health is also suffering, she has always had lower back pain but this has become much worse in the last 2-3 years.

She had her face to face assessment at home in October this year, the assessor seemed understanding and asked various questions about what she can and cannot do which we answered honestly.
Upon receiving the assessment report back we were astounded by the sheer volume of lies in the report. The assessor had basically filled in the blanks without consulting us at the assessment and blatantly lied about things we had told him and about the physical assessment!!

I won't go through each point but in the physical examination he asked my partner to cross her arms and turn the upper part of her body from side to side, she was unable to do this. She was then asked to stand and touch her toes, she couldn't even reach her knees so the assessor told her "That's OK You can sit down"

In the report she apparently touched her toes with no problems, stood on one foot and balanced while raising her other leg and then repeated with the other foot!! She is unable to do any of this and wasn't even asked to do so.

The assessment consisted of numerous questions which I am sure you are all aware of here such as ability to prepare and cook meals, dress unaided etc. My partner attended the assessment in pyjamas and a dressing gown because I did not have time to help her dress but apparently she could dress unaided and prepare and cook a simple meal which we told them she could not do as she is unable to stand for any length of time. They also concluded that she appeared well kempt and dressed appropriately!!!!
They also stated that her short term and long term memory was good being able to recall historic events. No questions were asked about her past either recent or long term. Sometimes she forgets that she has left a tap running after a visit to the bathroom.

Anyway there was a lot more in the assessment but I have rambled on enough about that.

We applied for a mandatory reconsideration based on the fact that the assessor had not been truthful and that many of the questions were not asked and we could prove that they were lying. We have now received the mandatory reconsideration notice which has upheld the original decision with zero points for everything.

I know the next step is a tribunal as stated on the notice we received today but I am unaware of what this entails. My partner is not aware that I am writing this as I have not yet told her of the reconsideration notice because I am afraid of the impact it will have on her mental state. I know I have to tell her but I want to find out as much information as possible about where we go from here.

What exactly is involved with a tribunal? Is it something she has to attend herself or is written evidence enough?

Any advice you can give would be most welcome as I am currently in a state of complete bemusement that an organisation employed by the government is allowed to lie to this extent and continuously get away with it.

Apologies again for the long post.

Pippa_Alumni · November 2018

Hi @ScrFta, and a warm welcome to the community!

Thanks for sharing this with us, and I'm so sorry to hear about your partner's experiences. It must have been a tough process for you both. I'm sure many others will be able to relate and will be along to advise soon, but in the meantime, here is Scope's guidance on appealing DWP decisions. Have a read, and do come back to us with any questions!

https://youtu.be/2WEvbFVlQOc

poppy123456 · November 2018

Hi,

Only 17% of MR decisions change. Basing the MR letter request on the lies and untruths told in the report isn't that way it should be done. DWP and a Tribunal will not be interested in any lies told in the report.

What you need to do is look at the PIP descriptors to see where you think she should have scored those points and your reasons why. Then give 2-3 examples of what happened the last time she did or tried to do that activity. Medical evidence is of no use unless it tells them how her conditions affect her ability to carry out the activities based on the PIP descriptors.

She now has 28 days to request the Tribunal by filling out the form and sending this MR decision letter with the form to HMCTS.

Appearing in person will give her the best chance of a decision in her favour. She will have to speak for herself during the Tribunal because they will want to hear it from her how her conditions affect her. Backlogs from Tribunal hearing dates are huge and some are waiting in excess of 1 year.

I'd advise her to get further help and advise from welfare rights or a law centre. If she can get a representative then even better.

CockneyRebel · November 2018

Many people, having gone through the assessment process, then the Mandatory Reconsideration are still let down by the system.
In order to get justice and the award they deserve, the final stage is to appeal to a tribunal.

Usually, a tribunal is a panel made up of a judge, a doctor and a disability specialist. This is an independant panel, given the task of looking at all the evidence from both parties, and come to an unbiased decision. In many cases, the panel will want to clarify with the claimant some of the evidence, or give the claimant the chance to explain.

If you are able to attend the hearing this is more easily achieved, however to some, the accumulated stress makes this impossible and a hearing can be held based just on the paper evidence with out the need to attend. It is also possible now to request a telephone or skype hearing

In all cases, the judge will notify you before the hearing if he believes that the current award is unsafe, which means that you may lose points and your current award. If this happens you do have the option to withdraw your appeal and keep the award you have.

This all sounds so scary that many people don't progress to this stage and settle for a lesser award than they deserve. Having already sent in all your possible evidence, what else can you do to persuade the "court" that you deserve a higher award ?

The simple answer is nothing. You have done everything you can.

Or have you ?

Often, the problem is not your evidence, which proves beyond doubt that your condition is real and affects the way you complete the daily tasks in line with the decriptors.

The problem is with how your evidence is presented.

Think about it. If you were a DM or a tribunal panel, would you want to read through the equivalent of War and Peace in medical evidence ? Would you even be able to stay awake to do so ?

Presentation to an appeal panel is made easy for you. You have already done all the work of collecting and submitting your evidence and GP letters where possible. The DWP has sent you back a copy of everything, "the bundle", all you need to do is present your case in an idiot proof form.

Make it easy for the panel to understand why you deserve the award.

We have all had the HCP report that at best can be described as a work of fiction. Attacking the HCP will not score you any points
The panel don't care ! The job of the panel is to make a judgement on your functionality and your job is to present your reasons in a straight forward manner.
Complaints about assessors are a separate matter and have no place in appeal submissions.

My "how to template", a formula put together over a year and eight successful PIP claims, may be of use if you want to give it a try. It is not magic, it is not a guarantee of success. You may think it is a load of ****, feel free to disgard it or make comments.
If it makes sense to you and helps you to appeal in a less stressful way, feel free to use it.

Template for appeal submission

MY best advice is, make it simple and idiot proof.
You do not need to try and find even more paperwork, you have already sent in all your relevant evidence

Write a brief history of your claim, condition and how it affects your daily life.

Example:

I am 61 years old and have had rheumatoid arthritis, multiple joint osteoarthritis and lupus for most of my life. The condition is permanent and deteriorating despite medication to slow the process. The painkillers I take have an effect after a few hours but before they kick in, I have difficulty washing and dressing and the pain make it very hard to get around.

You may agree with some of the points awarded, in which case say so and reference these to the bundle so the panel can easily find the information if they want.

Example;

Undisputed descriptors

Managing toilet needs 2 points (page 64 of the bundle)
Communicating verbally 0 points ( page 66 of the bundle )
etc.

Next move on to the descriptors that you are disputing. Again reference each point to the bundle.
State what you were awarded. What you believe you should have been awarded and why.

Example:

Disputed activity
Preparing and cooking food
I was awarded 0 points for preparing and cooking food ( page 60 of the bundle )
I believe that I should have been awarded 4 points for this activity
I need help to cook food, I can prepare vegetables whilst sitting but I cannot reliably, safely and for the majority of time, lift hot pans due to limited dexterity, poor grip and pain in my wrists and hands ( ref GP1, GP3 of the bundle. GP's letter ) There is a clear danger that I will drop things and scald myself and therefore need my wife to do this when necessary.
The assessment took place at 09:00 when I was fully rested and with the benefit of full pain medication. The HCP stated that I had a normal power and pinch grip at the time ( pages 59 & 60 of the bundle ). However ,I do not believe that the assessor took into consideration the effect of fatigue and the diminishing effect of my pain relief during a typical day, especially at meal times later in the day.

Do this for each descriptor that you dispute.

Finally write a brief summary of the above.

In conclusion, due to the snapshot nature of the assessment, I believe that the assessor did not take into consideration how my conditions affect me during a typical day or how the effects of fatigue and diminishing pain relief impact on my capability to carry out the activities as the day wears on.
I believe that I should have been awarded XX points for the care component and as agreed 12 points for moving around.
My conditions are permanent and deteriorating yearly ( GP 1 ) with no chance of remmission. As my condition varies from day to day, I request that the hearing takes place on the paper evidence as I am unable to ensure my attendance.

Your faithfully.

These are true examples from a submission used which resulted in a higher award being given.

I hope this helps some of you tro realise that tribunals don't have to be scary or hard to do.

CR

clivelate · November 2018

ScrFta said:

Hi, I registered here after reading through many of the stories and it appears to be quite common what my partner is being put through.

I'll try to be as brief as I can but apologise for rambling on.

My partner has suffered with anxiety, depression, agoraphobia and many other stress related conditions for most of her adult life now, she is currently 43 years old and it started when she was 17.
We took the decision to apply for PIP this year because she has gotten worse in the last two years, only being able to leave the house on a handful of occasions, every time I have to accompany her and coax her beforehand. She is unable to socialise at all, rarely contacts anybody outside of immediate family who she lives with and never speaks to anybody she doesn't know.
Because she does not go out at all her physical health is also suffering, she has always had lower back pain but this has become much worse in the last 2-3 years.

She had her face to face assessment at home in October this year, the assessor seemed understanding and asked various questions about what she can and cannot do which we answered honestly.
Upon receiving the assessment report back we were astounded by the sheer volume of lies in the report. The assessor had basically filled in the blanks without consulting us at the assessment and blatantly lied about things we had told him and about the physical assessment!!

I won't go through each point but in the physical examination he asked my partner to cross her arms and turn the upper part of her body from side to side, she was unable to do this. She was then asked to stand and touch her toes, she couldn't even reach her knees so the assessor told her "That's OK You can sit down"

In the report she apparently touched her toes with no problems, stood on one foot and balanced while raising her other leg and then repeated with the other foot!! She is unable to do any of this and wasn't even asked to do so.

The assessment consisted of numerous questions which I am sure you are all aware of here such as ability to prepare and cook meals, dress unaided etc. My partner attended the assessment in pyjamas and a dressing gown because I did not have time to help her dress but apparently she could dress unaided and prepare and cook a simple meal which we told them she could not do as she is unable to stand for any length of time. They also concluded that she appeared well kempt and dressed appropriately!!!!
They also stated that her short term and long term memory was good being able to recall historic events. No questions were asked about her past either recent or long term. Sometimes she forgets that she has left a tap running after a visit to the bathroom.

Anyway there was a lot more in the assessment but I have rambled on enough about that.

We applied for a mandatory reconsideration based on the fact that the assessor had not been truthful and that many of the questions were not asked and we could prove that they were lying. We have now received the mandatory reconsideration notice which has upheld the original decision with zero points for everything.

I know the next step is a tribunal as stated on the notice we received today but I am unaware of what this entails. My partner is not aware that I am writing this as I have not yet told her of the reconsideration notice because I am afraid of the impact it will have on her mental state. I know I have to tell her but I want to find out as much information as possible about where we go from here.

What exactly is involved with a tribunal? Is it something she has to attend herself or is written evidence enough?

Any advice you can give would be most welcome as I am currently in a state of complete bemusement that an organisation employed by the government is allowed to lie to this extent and continuously get away with it.

Apologies again for the long post.

Hello ScrFta

Pretty much the same thing happened to me, been on ESA support group since around 1993.

My mental health has gotten worst this year, i can hardly leave the house now when a year ago, i had problems on a lot of tasks, but it was just now and again, now it is pretty much all of the time,so decided to apply for Pip.

The report i got was lets say in a nice way full of fiction, i have now got a double appointment with my GP next month, i showed her the report and she was shocked at the things she read, while in my case no decision has been given yet, i know what is coming as the nurse gave me no points, the dm will just rubber stamp her findings, which is total fiction.

I have no contacted my local MP, written a very strong worded letter of complaint to Atos and also sent a letter to the DWP complaining of the standard of the report.

I have no problem wiht the DWP awarding me no points if this is what they decide to do, because if i read the report, and i didnt know better, you would think there is nothing wrong with me.

The report was shocking, i was aksed if i use socal media i replied no, i have no interest in that at all, but the report said i use socal media, she cliamed i heard my name being called when she read out my name at the start of the interview, which was also total rubbish, my dad was with me and told me i was being called, she asked if i i could use public transport like a bus, i asked no, she wrote i use public transport, im sure you get the idea, and i bet your report you have, is almost the same.

I could see so much of the report has been copied and pasted as well.

I have written my MR already, but i cant do anything yet, until the DWP tell me i have failed for Pip.

If you hae mental health problems, it seems getting Pip is almost impossible, unless you go to court and let them decide, one thing ithat is almost certain, the report that is written about you will be total fiction, and will have answered to questions twisted that you gave during the interview.

My health has gotten worst already with all this, but i am determined, not to let this get me down, i have enough problems in my life, without this Pip to worry about, stay strong and fight it all the way, sadly it takes about a year for your case to go to court, i have been twice now for ESA and its not an easy thing to do, it is very stressful, the last time i attended the judge didnt even speak to me, he said vai the clark i shouldnt be here, he has been through enough, and is in the support group for 2 years, most judges are ok and fair, i know its not always the case, but most are.

Keep fighting is my advice.

ScrFta · November 2018

poppy123456 said:

Hi,

Only 17% of MR decisions change. Basing the MR letter request on the lies and untruths told in the report isn't that way it should be done. DWP and a Tribunal will not be interested in any lies told in the report.

Thanks for the responses.

I am looking into appealing to a tribunal now but my primary concern is the welfare of my partner. I have now informed her of the decision and she is understandably angry and upset that they do not believe her. How we will actually move forward from this I don't know.

@poppy123456 I didn't base the MR on lies, I simply pointed out for each step that the assessor had lied and falsified information. I also explained my partners capabilities for each point raised for each of the descriptors. They have completely ignored my statements and still insist that my partner is more than capable of a normal day to day existence.

If something were to happen to me, my partner would not be able to cope with daily life. She cannot even open the front door when someone calls because she has no idea who it may be. She has not been inside a shop for about 4 years because she cannot cope with other people around her. She won't answer the telephone at all.

The reason for my rant is because I still cannot believe that the government and the company chosen to carry out these assessments on their behalf are allowed to continue this way. I am seeing first hand how this affects somebody (My partner) with mental health issues. I cannot begin to imagine how this would affect somebody who does not have the support of family members to help them through. Just a few days ago I was reading about the increased suicide rates in people who have had their benefits reduced/stopped and have been forced to attend tribunals when they are clearly not fit to.

My partner is having a decent day today and has informed me that she wants to take this all the way to a tribunal so I will be working on that now. Tomorrow may be too late as she may have a bad day and feel like she cannot cope with round 3!

Anyway, thanks for the help and kind support. Regardless of the outcome I shall stick around here as I firmly believe that many people are being wronged by the actions of these assessors.

ScrFta · November 2018

clivelate said:

Hello ScrFta
Pretty much the same thing happened to me, been on ESA support group since around 1993.

My mental health has gotten worst this year, i can hardly leave the house now when a year ago, i had problems on a lot of tasks, but it was just now and again, now it is pretty much all of the time,so decided to apply for Pip.

The report was shocking, i was aksed if i use socal media i replied no, i have no interest in that at all, but the report said i use socal media, she cliamed i heard my name being called when she read out my name at the start of the interview, which was also total rubbish, my dad was with me and told me i was being called, she asked if i i could use public transport like a bus, i asked no, she wrote i use public transport, im sure you get the idea, and i bet your report you have, is almost the same.

It is unbelievable how similar your report is to my partners.

If you hae mental health problems, it seems getting Pip is almost impossible, unless you go to court and let them decide, one thing ithat is almost certain, the report that is written about you will be total fiction, and will have answered to questions twisted that you gave during the interview.

Couldn't agree more!

My health has gotten worst already with all this, but i am determined, not to let this get me down, i have enough problems in my life, without this Pip to worry about, stay strong and fight it all the way, sadly it takes about a year for your case to go to court, i have been twice now for ESA and its not an easy thing to do, it is very stressful, the last time i attended the judge didnt even speak to me, he said vai the clark i shouldnt be here, he has been through enough, and is in the support group for 2 years, most judges are ok and fair, i know its not always the case, but most are.

Keep fighting is my advice.

I will keep fighting. I have addressed a couple of points in your quote above.

No mention was made about social media but the other things are almost identical. It's as if they have a script to work from like a sales person.

Mental health problems are still being treated as something that should not be spoken about which in 2018 is an absolute disgrace. Without meaning to sound prejudiced in any way because I am most certainly not, it is completely outrageous that we have made so many advances for the rights of so many other minority groups in this country but people with mental health problems are still being treated like some sort of underclass!

ellea · November 2018

ScrFta said:

Hi, I registered here after reading through many of the stories and it appears to be quite common what my partner is being put through.

I'll try to be as brief as I can but apologise for rambling on.

My partner has suffered with anxiety, depression, agoraphobia and many other stress related conditions for most of her adult life now, she is currently 43 years old and it started when she was 17.
We took the decision to apply for PIP this year because she has gotten worse in the last two years, only being able to leave the house on a handful of occasions, every time I have to accompany her and coax her beforehand. She is unable to socialise at all, rarely contacts anybody outside of immediate family who she lives with and never speaks to anybody she doesn't know.
Because she does not go out at all her physical health is also suffering, she has always had lower back pain but this has become much worse in the last 2-3 years.

She had her face to face assessment at home in October this year, the assessor seemed understanding and asked various questions about what she can and cannot do which we answered honestly.
Upon receiving the assessment report back we were astounded by the sheer volume of lies in the report. The assessor had basically filled in the blanks without consulting us at the assessment and blatantly lied about things we had told him and about the physical assessment!!

I won't go through each point but in the physical examination he asked my partner to cross her arms and turn the upper part of her body from side to side, she was unable to do this. She was then asked to stand and touch her toes, she couldn't even reach her knees so the assessor told her "That's OK You can sit down"

In the report she apparently touched her toes with no problems, stood on one foot and balanced while raising her other leg and then repeated with the other foot!! She is unable to do any of this and wasn't even asked to do so.

The assessment consisted of numerous questions which I am sure you are all aware of here such as ability to prepare and cook meals, dress unaided etc. My partner attended the assessment in pyjamas and a dressing gown because I did not have time to help her dress but apparently she could dress unaided and prepare and cook a simple meal which we told them she could not do as she is unable to stand for any length of time. They also concluded that she appeared well kempt and dressed appropriately!!!!
They also stated that her short term and long term memory was good being able to recall historic events. No questions were asked about her past either recent or long term. Sometimes she forgets that she has left a tap running after a visit to the bathroom.

Anyway there was a lot more in the assessment but I have rambled on enough about that.

We applied for a mandatory reconsideration based on the fact that the assessor had not been truthful and that many of the questions were not asked and we could prove that they were lying. We have now received the mandatory reconsideration notice which has upheld the original decision with zero points for everything.

I know the next step is a tribunal as stated on the notice we received today but I am unaware of what this entails. My partner is not aware that I am writing this as I have not yet told her of the reconsideration notice because I am afraid of the impact it will have on her mental state. I know I have to tell her but I want to find out as much information as possible about where we go from here.

What exactly is involved with a tribunal? Is it something she has to attend herself or is written evidence enough?

Any advice you can give would be most welcome as I am currently in a state of complete bemusement that an organisation employed by the government is allowed to lie to this extent and continuously get away with it.

Apologies again for the long post.

My assessment / decision makers report was not honest..lots of stuff about left out about severity of symptoms and medical evidence. I don't see how they come to the conclusion that -even if someone can lean forward and or grip assessors hand for a couple of seconds- those actions equate to being able to hold and use kitchen equipment utensils or shopping etc which not the same thing! And doing those things safely and without pain is not taken into account..its like thy make it up as they go along!

clivelate · November 2018

ScrFta said:

clivelate said:

Hello ScrFta
Pretty much the same thing happened to me, been on ESA support group since around 1993.

My mental health has gotten worst this year, i can hardly leave the house now when a year ago, i had problems on a lot of tasks, but it was just now and again, now it is pretty much all of the time,so decided to apply for Pip.

The report was shocking, i was aksed if i use socal media i replied no, i have no interest in that at all, but the report said i use socal media, she cliamed i heard my name being called when she read out my name at the start of the interview, which was also total rubbish, my dad was with me and told me i was being called, she asked if i i could use public transport like a bus, i asked no, she wrote i use public transport, im sure you get the idea, and i bet your report you have, is almost the same.

It is unbelievable how similar your report is to my partners.

If you hae mental health problems, it seems getting Pip is almost impossible, unless you go to court and let them decide, one thing ithat is almost certain, the report that is written about you will be total fiction, and will have answered to questions twisted that you gave during the interview.

Couldn't agree more!

My health has gotten worst already with all this, but i am determined, not to let this get me down, i have enough problems in my life, without this Pip to worry about, stay strong and fight it all the way, sadly it takes about a year for your case to go to court, i have been twice now for ESA and its not an easy thing to do, it is very stressful, the last time i attended the judge didnt even speak to me, he said vai the clark i shouldnt be here, he has been through enough, and is in the support group for 2 years, most judges are ok and fair, i know its not always the case, but most are.

Keep fighting is my advice.

I will keep fighting. I have addressed a couple of points in your quote above.

No mention was made about social media but the other things are almost identical. It's as if they have a script to work from like a sales person.

Mental health problems are still being treated as something that should not be spoken about which in 2018 is an absolute disgrace. Without meaning to sound prejudiced in any way because I am most certainly not, it is completely outrageous that we have made so many advances for the rights of so many other minority groups in this country but people with mental health problems are still being treated like some sort of underclass!

Hi, i even had an ESA court order which was from 18 months ago (not not that recent but not that old either based on some peoples reports), but it clearly said i cant talk to people out on the street and suffer badly from incontinence, yet that wasn't even listed on the evidence she had seen when she wrote what evidence she had considered when writting the report, we know for a fact the wonderful nurse saw it, she told us so, when my dad asked her before we even entered her interview room.

I will be seeing my GP, but not sure it iwll be of much use as she dont live with me, but she has seen me shaking, and crying many times when i have been waiting to see her.

The nurse i saw seemed so nice and helpful to my face, she even told us i was down playing my disabilites, it then appears once we left the building she wrote something very different to the DWP.

Once my case comes to court which im pretty sure will happen, i would love her to attend, i would love to be able to speak to her, in front of the 3 panel memebers, some how i cant see that happening, but boy i wish it would, she has done me so much harm already,and its only been a month since she saw me, i keep wondering if i explained myself well at this interview, but my dad who came with me, keeps telling me you explained everything fine.

She even wrote on the report i could give directions to members of the public if asked,when or if i go out for a walk, that is impressive, she never even asked that question, and i know i could never do that, if i saw someone out and about on my own, i would almost certainly run away, maybe they could run with me, and i could give them directions while we are both running.

teacakes · November 2018

I don't feel they've any intention of holding fair f2f assessments, just focused on cutting the claimant numbers.

Its worth taking it to tribunal, i was terrified but the panel I had were alright & asked reasonable questions to gain further insight on treatments & how conditions effect me re descriptors. I felt it was fair & more what I'd expected from f2f

It took about 7 months for my tribunal from sending appeal application. I scored 0 point's in assessment and MR. I was awarded what was expected & DWP have to backdate to when you put in claim.

Try to see welfare rights/law advisor to help with your case as support makes it so much easier to navigate.

poppy123456 · November 2018

teacakes said:

I don't feel they've any intention of holding fair f2f assessments, just focused on cutting the claimant numbers.

That's not correct. Not everyone has a bad assessments. I've had 3 PIP assessments and 2 ESA ones and never experienced anything bad in any of them. Truthful reports from all of them, with decisions in my favour.

Yadnad · December 2018

I had 3 PIP face to face assessments that were conducted unfairly with the assessors only wanting answers to statements they raised. No time was allowed for any explanations. All 3 resulted in 0 points. The first 2 decisions changed to enhanced Care & mobility at MR stage, the 3rd remained the same so I closed the claim down.
I had an ESA face to face assessment in 2009 which resulted in being told that I was fit for work. The DWP changed it at MR stage to Support Group for 3 years. The ESA review in 2012 I ignored as it was only months before I was to become 65 and the ESA would have stopped anyhow.

PIP refused with zero points after assessor lied!! MR upheld original decision!

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