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tribunals analogy of (undescribed walks)

boriswhoboriswho Member [under moderation] Posts: 153 Courageous
edited August 2019 in PIP, DLA and AA
im trying to argue tribunals analogy of walks that were used for tribunal decision
1. the panel member that argued distances of different hospitals from parking area's
2. I definatley am better at judging distances than this person(i used to do this measuring cable runs by eye) I would think my judgement would be far superior than this members judgements.

anyway ive utilised google maps etc 
and come up with these.Q: Visit to leazes A&E RVI
You will see from the light Blue/Green dots on google maps(image) a scale of the distances I walked and the red line being where I parked my car to the reception waiting area:  
I parked in position Leazes RVI A&E Visit distances
Distance to reception  Leazes RVI A&E Visit distances
a) From image Google maps ~ 100 yards in BLUE & MY walk in red and green the time taken  I'm guessing I was traveling at least half my normal average speed of 20/30 meters per minute becasue of severe pain and it had taken me approx 6/7 minutes to arrive at the 1st reception where I held onto the desk to support around 3/4 mins, and then a further ~25 meters to the next reception where I had a further wait "supporting my weight on the the desk again" and then a ~5 meter walk to the sitting area where I had a 30minute wait. I was in alot of pain on this A&E visit but i felt i had to get a specialist in healthcare to see me and see the effects my condition has on me as normally Im forced to stay in the house and lie in my bed becasue of the severity of my condition and no-one see this except my partner.
My partner should have been allowed to help me answer I do struggle remember when i have problems becasue there have been so many.
This is my description of the walks that were examined by the tribunal members with several flaws in the analogy from these tribunal members.


or this journey:

 
again the blue is a scale of google maps & the red line is the walk that i done.
Q, Hospital trip a&e  after fall off ladder.?  (see attachment A&E Visit Rake lane & report)
A, parked in position  (see attachment A&E Visit Rake lane). Distance to reception & estimated time to stop & then rest. 
You will see from the light blue dots on google maps(image) a scale of the distances walked and the red line being where i parked my car to the reception waiting area:
A) 42 steps(~1/2 meter steps) time taken ~approx 4 minutes( I had alot of difficulty weight bearing both sides limbs the rhs being the worst affected). I was able to sit once inside and thereafter i was taken to a through to be seen 10 meters from sitting area (this walk was very painful) where i was placed on a bed and taken to xray I still suffer from the same issues today when I walk in excess of 20 meters upwards and my issues worsen the more repeatedly i do walk now including instability issues which have the affect of being the same as this my fall from height  some 2 years ago.

Im trying to use the above as reference and dismissing the tribunals perception of this walk.
would i be right im my thinking of this?
 could this be used against tribunals decision and incorrect analogy of these walks i have not described very well at tribunal?
Ive already sent to tribunal i just hope they look at it

Replies

  • boriswhoboriswho Member [under moderation] Posts: 153 Courageous
    and to mention the tribunals assessment of distance of the probably daily walk that they do into the tribunal chambers

    analise this walk ? 100 yard blue line
    i probably parked closer than the red dot suggest.
    is theyre thinking as to walking into a tribunal is flawed also?
    should they judge a walk in the day of tribunal
  • boriswhoboriswho Member [under moderation] Posts: 153 Courageous
    here is the 50 meter walk i apparently done to my lcw assessment?
    the blue line is 67 meters
    my red line is how far i walked probably over estimated but as rough guide.
    its certainly not 50 meters as a nurse suggested so why are they lieing to stop people getting support


  • boriswhoboriswho Member [under moderation] Posts: 153 Courageous
    Here is the answer to my own question of how accurate is Google Maps.

    https://www.quora.com/How-accurate-is-Google-Maps-distance-calculator
  • boriswhoboriswho Member [under moderation] Posts: 153 Courageous
    boriswho said:
    here is the 50 meter walk i apparently done to my lcw assessment?
    the blue line is 67 meters
    my red line is how far i walked probably over estimated but as rough guide.
    its certainly not 50 meters as a nurse suggested so why are they lieing to stop people getting support


    im going to use this against the assessors report of me at next tribunal. wise? not so?
    id like to know if she judged this by her eye only? or she had a tape measure out
    or wether it was from my car or the front door of the buidling? would the room that we had an assessment in have been recorded ? should we do this when we are assessed?
    somewhat of a scandal isnt it
  • wilkowilko Member Posts: 2,261 Disability Gamechanger
    Hello, the acessor knows the distance from the nearest car parks. Bus stops to the assessment center and from the waiting room to their office. So I think you could be on to a no win battle. 
  • boriswhoboriswho Member [under moderation] Posts: 153 Courageous
    Hmm still ?
    what actually is correct in the real world :
    they're measurements of these 
    or the correct version with precision engineering ie google maps?
    If it's the 1St then
    why are they able to make they're own distance up as rough estimates?
    @ilovecats haha sorry to drag u into this 

  • boriswhoboriswho Member [under moderation] Posts: 153 Courageous
    I supposed if you prove at a tribunal the actual distance then does this not then cause doubt in the mind of the panel as to the assessors ability to accurately to judge people across all areas and would be a good starting point.
  • boriswhoboriswho Member [under moderation] Posts: 153 Courageous
    As well as the assessor is viewing you also from the waiting area where as mine was from the front door 
    And she has not seen me walk upto the door ??(or did she)so should half of the distance be disregarded if they judged on a prior measured distance? As they only seen half?
  • boriswhoboriswho Member [under moderation] Posts: 153 Courageous
    I give up u ppl are so one track minded 
  • boriswhoboriswho Member [under moderation] Posts: 153 Courageous
    edited August 2019
    No u have not helped me with getting tribunal decision overturned either this sites full of jumped up little [removed by moderator]
  • boriswhoboriswho Member [under moderation] Posts: 153 Courageous
    And whoever thought your post here was awesome is another one I could certainly take guess as to who it was 
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    edited August 2019
    You have made multiple threads regarding your PIP claim and have been given lots of advice in all of them. You just keep continuing to go around in circles. You're making the whole thing more difficult than it really needs to be. There's no other advice anyone can give you, other than what's already been advised.

    No one can help you get the Tribunal decision overturned because we don't know anything about your case.
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • Chloe_ScopeChloe_Scope Scope Posts: 10,652 Disability Gamechanger
    Hi @boriswho,

    I am sorry you feel like we have been unable to support you through the tribunal. The community relies on the personal experiences of others and the resources that we have available.

    However, we do not always have all of the answers as we are not benefit specialists. As a result, the advice can be limited for those with more complex situations. We'd appreciate it if you didn't take it personally when no more advice can be given, and respect the other members who have given you all the help they can.

    Many thanks,
    Chloe
    Community Partner
    Scope

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    Complete our feedback form to help us to improve your community.
  • bracabraca Member [under moderation] Posts: 85 Pioneering
    @boriswho Have you tried other benefit forums who may have a better understanding regarding your mobility issues as you seem to be banging your head against a brick wall on this forum, and my own opinion is some members are trying to run you off the site with their flippant comments...
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    braca said:
    @boriswho Have you tried other benefit forums who may have a better understanding regarding your mobility issues as you seem to be banging your head against a brick wall on this forum, and my own opinion is some members are trying to run you off the site with their flippant comments...
    That's very harsh. Boris has received a lot of advice on this forum from various members but it's a constant go round in circles thing here. There's only so much help and advice people can give on a public forum.
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,728 Disability Gamechanger
    There are a number of problems with the approach being taken as follows: 

    1 - You have mixed yards and metres. There are significant differences and you can’t expect a tribunal to spend time converting from one to another. As an approach it instantly makes your evidence look muddled and undermines credibility. 

    2 - Your argument ought to be that you walk a short distance so slowly that you can’t do so in a reasonable time. The overall distances covered you talk about undermine that case. If they were walked there and back then you do not qualify and that’s really the end of the matter. 

    3 - Bearing in mind the above two points there’s little point in trying to argue your estimation of distance is better than a panel member. However, even in isolation this is a fools errand. Humans are generally terrible at estimating distance and the science shows that the more confident we are the worse the outcome. It’s simply not a credible argument to begin with but it’s also an error as regards the approach to a tribunal. The latter are independent of DWP and you’re kicking at an open door as regards the quality of HCP reports. They are widely acknowledged as being dismal and as recently as today the evidence remains that they fall well short of competence in a significant minority (to use the Work and Pensions committee phrase) of cases. Most tribunals can see the manifest flaws in HCP reports before you’ve even walked in the room. They need only hear maybe two examples of clear cut error before they want to move on.

    There are two aspects to that moving on. Firstly, proving a HCP wrong is not the same as being entitled to PIP. It’s perfectly possible to destroy a HCP report but not qualify because you’ve not made out what your case for entitlement actually is. However, it’s also the case that you’re not going to get an award if you antagonise one or more members of the panel. Telling them you’re better than them at estimating distance whilst simultaneously giving clear evidence which suggests you won’t score the points is not a winning strategy. 

    4 - It’s highly likely one or more panel members will know where you live; the approach to the assessment centre; tribunal venue etc. and will have used Google Maps or more. Their “perception”  may be wholly factual. Errors do get made but at the distances you’re talking they wouldn’t be relevant anyway. I’ve heard of tribunals looking up the wrong home address and walk to the bus stop just like HCPs in certain areas mysteriously all work in buildings with 15m or 35m corridors and “randomly” pick 200m as the distance a claimant ought to be able to walk. All interesting stuff but nothing to the point that you walk too far to qualify based on the facts as you present them.

    5 - you are correct that people who watch you walk at an assessment centre or into/through a tribunal venue will only get a partial picture. If that was all they were judging you on then that will always be a problem. However, they’re also judging you on the claim publicly; evidence and their own experience as well as what you say. What you have said pm this and other threads suggest you don’t score sufficient points to qualify for the mobility element and your approach to presenting the case that you do is muddled and overly complex. No amount of challenges or repeat claims seem likely to change that. 

    I’m not sure there’s anything else I could possibly add. 
  • cristobalcristobal Member Posts: 966 Disability Gamechanger
    edited August 2019
    "Firstly, proving a HCP wrong is not the same as being entitled to PIP. It’s perfectly possible to destroy a HCP report but not qualify because you’ve not made out what your case for entitlement actually is. However, it’s also the case that you’re not going to get an award if you antagonise one or more members of the panel. Telling them you’re better than them at estimating distance whilst simultaneously giving clear evidence which suggests you won’t score the points is not a winning strategy."

    @mikeshughescq - you make two very good points...

    Lots of posts on here talk of their assessment being 'lies', 'riddled with errors' etc and there seems to be a misunderstanding that if they show that the HCP 'lied', or was mistaken, then they will be awarded PIP.

    As you say this is not the case - in my case I was asked if I could walk to a 'phone box down the road. The assessor claimed that it was 200 yards - and if I wanted to I can easily show that it's about 30-40 yards - but proving that she was wrong doesn't take me any further. The onus is still on me to show how far I can walk..

    It's different to a criminal trial where the starting point is 'not guilty' and if the prosecution witnesses are discredited a jury is less likely to find you guilty..

    Secondly it's always a good idea getting people on you side. It shouldn't matter but human nature dictates that no-one likes a barrack-room lawyer telling them that they are wrong - if you do you're less likely to get the result that you want..

    For this reason @boriswho I wouldn't say "I would think my judgement would be far superior than this members judgements."
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,728 Disability Gamechanger
    Only 2 of 5 @cristobal? Damn, must try harder :)

    On a more serious note I agree entirely with your post.
  • boriswhoboriswho Member [under moderation] Posts: 153 Courageous
    1,Sorry once again I stand corrected 
    2,I think the best advice was the kicking at an already open door....
    3,Ofc the rest was good but that bit for me makes sense.
    4,I guess it's just a complicated way of comprehending things, it's not ignorance you can understand my beef with everything as a whole it's like people say its incredibly demoralising as well as detrimental to conditions
    5,I'm worse I'd say without this support so in effective they are costing themselves in the end makes no sense at all unless you die like some people have maybe that's me in the future if they continue in this fashion......
    6,What can I say I've learnt alot in one year via this site....
    7,I've been to proud many years could have had support during a long painful process partly I'd say due to my GP some 20 years ago the last encounter I remember is me telling him "I had very severe back pack at my 3 weeks overdue appointment and him in a not so gentle manor push me out of his room.....
    I blame this person for my years of persecution....."
    He had an article in a local newspaper he's probably dead now good riddens I say....
    Well he probably had a long prosperous life probably never wanted for nothing so what would I care anyhow it's only been 20 years I've been denied support....that I really need now...
    Or the next assessor I consider these people in the sane vain. I have another assessment soon guess what it's gonna be explosive in the assessment room my next appointment....
    I've got more ammunition to fire at these undesirable people I think probably there slot of them on here 

    Oh and got citizens advice they say what with they're 50million pound agreement with the government ........so you wonder why I don't appreciate bad advice.....
  • boriswhoboriswho Member [under moderation] Posts: 153 Courageous
    These people are in cahoot with the dwp gp's shame it used to be an invaluable service they must have had some supremely persuasive lawyers these guys should have been employed by atos etc would have had abetter chance of denying people benefits bunch of scumsucking reprobates lucky for you lot my account is in the process of being deleted and you won't have to see my so called "multiple threads "regarding they're degrading disgrace of a system..... these people are the real gangsters......
  • boriswhoboriswho Member [under moderation] Posts: 153 Courageous
    Unless I just make a new account lol one thing I have is time....
  • Adrian_ScopeAdrian_Scope Testing Team, Scope community team Posts: 7,984 Scope community team
    edited August 2019
    Hi @boriswho, I'm going to be closing this thread.
    I understand you're very frustrated by the system and many of us can relate to that. However, you've received lots of advice regarding your PIP claim and have also received warnings previously about your tone. I would like to again remind you to be civil when you speak to members of our community and be mindful of the types of comments you make. Your most recent one could be perceived to be bordering on a threat, which I've also removed.
    Senior Community Partner
    Scope

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This discussion has been closed.