Hi, my name is Andywheels56! - Page 2 — Scope | Disability forum
Please read our updated community house rules and community guidelines.

Hi, my name is Andywheels56!

2

Comments

  • Andywheels56
    Andywheels56 Community member Posts: 45 Connected
    Yes Janer , they are all in my kitchen, as well as my perching stool. I've got grab rails going up the stair's and their is something to get me socks on and off in the bedroom.

    poppy, what if I only talk to people I actually know. What if I need prompting from a family member/friend. Does that cross the threshold between Activities 7 and 9.


    Unfortunately my quest for further advice has fallen on deaf ears. The local CAB is only doing appointments for peeps who have had their benefits cut or stopped, and their website is only giving general advice, although I must admit it is very good. Same thing for the local council welfare service. None are doing face to face consultations. 








  • Andywheels56
    Andywheels56 Community member Posts: 45 Connected
    As regards Activity 7 - who do they mean when they say "communication support"
  • Andywheels56
    Andywheels56 Community member Posts: 45 Connected
    Ah double post. Already been answered by poppy.
  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Community member Posts: 53,333 Disability Gamechanger
    In your first post you said you have Tinnitus, is that correct? Then further on in the thread you mention aids around your home so now i'm confused, May i ask why you need the aids? Were they recommended by an Occuptional Therapist or did you buy them yourself?

    Why do you need prompting to communicate with others?
    I would appreciate it if members wouldn't tag me please. I have all notifcations turned off and wouldn't want a member thinking i'm being rude by not replying.
    If i see a question that i know the answer to i will try my best to help.
  • Andywheels56
    Andywheels56 Community member Posts: 45 Connected
    It was just a bit of blue sky thinking, that's all. Yes, I have tinnitus. It affects my daily living in ways that I could never have imagined. Having read the thread back again I realise that instead of trying to fit the descriptor to the tinnitus it should be the other way around. It should be how my tinnitus impacts me, and see if it is relevant to any of the descriptors.

    You are right poppy, why do I need prompting. I probably don't but I am by nature a quiet shy bloke, and having tinnitus just makes it more awkward. You have a feeling something is wrong with you i.e. you have a decease or something but the medical people tell you there isn't anything physically wrong, it's all phsychological, it's all in your head. No wonder I'm going bl***y stir crazy.
  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Community member Posts: 53,333 Disability Gamechanger
    Oh i see. You can't make the descriptors fit you, that's not going to work. There are disabled people out there that don't qualify for PIP but it doesn't mean they aren't classed as disabled.

    For PIP you need to be affected at least 50% of the time over a 12 month period. There's very little point in taking it to Tribunal if you don't fit those descriptors because it will be a waste of time.
    I would appreciate it if members wouldn't tag me please. I have all notifcations turned off and wouldn't want a member thinking i'm being rude by not replying.
    If i see a question that i know the answer to i will try my best to help.
  • Adrian_Scope
    Adrian_Scope Posts: 10,821 Scope online community team
    Hello @Andywheels56.
    To have your daily life impacted so significantly but not in a way that appears to neatly fit within the criteria of the PIP descriptors must be especially frustrating. Unfortunately as Poppy has said, many people whose daily lives are heavily impacted don't necessarily fit the descriptors.
    I know you're struggling to find advice and while Scope don't offer face-to-face guidance, our Helpline team would be happy to discuss this all further with you. 

    You can contact Helpline on:

    Phone: 0808 800 3333.

    Textphone: dial 18001 then 0808 800 3333.

    Calls are free from UK landlines and mobiles.

    Email: helpline@scope.org.uk.

    They're open Monday to Friday, 8am to 7pm. Saturday and Sunday, 10am to 6pm.

    Community Manager
    Scope
  • Andywheels56
    Andywheels56 Community member Posts: 45 Connected
    Think also that there might be some mental health issues which I haven't properly addressed. The 2 employers I have had in my forty years of working life recognised this. Was referred to physchologist's for talking therapy but found it to damned hard. I was in bits and just couldn't cope with talking about the way I was feeling. Begining of this year I referred myself to  counselling run by local hospital trust, and when they rang to arrange an appointment I convinced myself that I was alright and I didn't need them. Just had to get this off my chest after chatting to the friendly girl from scope helpline.


    Thanks for listening Georgia.
  • Tori_Scope
    Tori_Scope Scope Posts: 12,488 Disability Gamechanger
    I'm really glad you called the helpline, and that you found them helpful @Andywheels56 :) They're a great team!

    Talking therapy can be really hard, so you're more than welcome to get this off of your chest. Do you think if you were to access some counselling again that you'd be able to give it another go? It's totally fine to go in and say that you find things hard to talk about, and that they might need to help you through that process. That's what they're there for :) 
    National Campaigns Officer, she/her

    Join our call for an equal future.
  • Andywheels56
    Andywheels56 Community member Posts: 45 Connected
    Just reading pipinfo and going through some of the case law there is. Would I be able to use the argument of not being able to use hearing aid due to a sensitivity to the high pitched sounds amplified by hearing aid.
  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Community member Posts: 53,333 Disability Gamechanger
    As you only use 1 hearing aid, unfortunately, this doesn't count.
    I would appreciate it if members wouldn't tag me please. I have all notifcations turned off and wouldn't want a member thinking i'm being rude by not replying.
    If i see a question that i know the answer to i will try my best to help.
  • Andywheels56
    Andywheels56 Community member Posts: 45 Connected
    What about the mild hearing loss in my right ear I have been diagnosed with. Would that alter your view or should I just give up on it as a hopeless case.
  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Community member Posts: 53,333 Disability Gamechanger
    I would say no. Sometimes people just don't qualify because you can't make the descriptors fit you.
    I would appreciate it if members wouldn't tag me please. I have all notifcations turned off and wouldn't want a member thinking i'm being rude by not replying.
    If i see a question that i know the answer to i will try my best to help.
  • yanni
    yanni Community member Posts: 91 Pioneering

    Hi

    Like you I have hearing loss and tinnitus.

     If you have a mild high frequency loss you will probably have difficulty hearing TH S and F sounds which can significantly impact how well you can understand speech. For example  SOMETHING FISHY becomes OMEING IHY if you don’t hear these sounds. Hearing loss can also make it difficult to distinguish between similar sounding words such as bat and mat.

     The ‘mild’ diagnosis is only an indication of what volume of sound you can / can’t hear at a given frequency, it is not an indication of how well you can or can’t understand speech.

     PIP

    To get 4 points for the Communicating activity you need to have difficulty reliably understanding complex verbal information more than 50% of the time.

     The DWP give the example of  “I would like tea please, just a splash of milk and no sugar, as I always have sweeteners with me for when I go out” as an example of complex verbal information.

     To get 8 points you need to have difficulty understanding basic verbal communication more than 50% of the time.

    The DWP give the example of “I would like tea please” as an example of basic verbal communication.

     

    However you do need to be able to do this ‘reliably’. That is repeatedly, to an acceptable standard, in a reasonable time and safely. E.g. if you have to ask people to repeat themselves frequently or you can’t understand or misunderstand what is said, you can not do the activity reliably.

     The assessment should take into account background noise if you encounter these whilst living your normal life e,g. TV, music, other people talking, traffic noise etc.

     Any background noise can be a problem for anyone using a hearing aid as, unlike your natural hearing, the aid can’t tune in on what you want to hear.

     Also the assessment should ignore any lipreading ability you have and if you say you struggle on the phone ( or you find it more difficult to understand someone when they are wearing a mask) this could indicate that you are relying on lipreading to some extent.

     Communication support can be provided by friends or family and it doesn’t matter if you have the support or not it is the fact that you need the support The guidance in the PIP Assessment Guide doesn’t define the nature of this support, it just says people who don’t use sign language may need communication support “in other ways”.

     With regards the hearing aid making things worse / too loud / triggering the tinnitus:

     The DWP PIP guidance says that

    “If a claimant cannot speak or hear to an acceptable standard even with the use of aids then an alternative descriptor should be selected.”

     so the fact the hearing aid makes things worse or not is neither here or there in my view. If a hearing aid does not restore your ability to understand verbal communication to an acceptable standard then the DWP needs to look at the higher level descriptors e.g. communication support.

     The same guidance says that if you have “good reason” not to wear the hearing aid then you should have been assessed without it. The DWP may have decided that not wearing it because it makes the tinnitus worse is not a good reason but a tribunal (where there will be a disability specialist who knows about hearing loss and tinnitus) may decide differently.

     https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/personal-independence-payment-assessment-guide-for-assessment-providers/pip-assessment-guide-part-2-the-assessment-criteria

     

    In terms of anecdotal evidence, think about when you go to the supermarket or post office, do you have problems there?

     You say you have difficulties understanding people at the door or on the telephone - that’s evidence.

    Explain what happened - did you have to ask them to repeat what they said, how many times, did you eventually understand them or did you smile / nod / agree and hope that was the right response?

     Also think about watching TV, listening to the radio and tannoy announcements - there is no requirement that the communication takes place face to face.

     Are there things you don’t catch or things that you ‘heard’ but don’t make sense? -

     Write them as evidence. One of my examples were I didn’t know if someone had said ‘There is the clove’ or ‘There is the globe’. They were talking about a monument so both could have been correct. Other examples are someone said something and walked away. I didn’t know what they had said.

    As you can’t control where someone speaks to you from, if someone speaks on your right side, can you understand them?

    What if they look away while they are talking to you? What if they have their back to you? (Again this is evidence that you rely on lipreading to understand speech).

    Do you have to ask the staff to repeat what they said? Do you understand the amount the cashier says? If a someone asks you a question do you understand what was said?

    If someone speaks at a reasonable distance can you understand them or do you have to move closer and ask them to repeat themselves? 

    Do you have difficulty understanding women’s voices more than men’s?

    (This is common with hearing loss as women’s voices generally softer and higher pitched and it is the higher pitches that are lost with most people when they start to lose their hearing.)

    Do you have problems understanding your Dad’s voice (elderly) or children’s? Again these voices are often harder to understand.

    Are you aware of occasions where someone was speaking to you and you didn’t realise until too late or until someone else told you that person was trying to talk to you? Perhaps a staff member asking if you need help or someone saying excuse me?

    I keep a note of these incidences when I know my PIP is going to be reviewed soon. If you did this for a week or two you would get some indication as to whether you would meet the criteria for getting more points under the Communicating activity for needing communication support.

    Social Engagement

    With Social Engagement I think you would struggle to get more than 2 points for needing prompting. For social support you need to show that you need support from a particular person and that it is only that person who can provide that support effectively, not just any well meaning friend or family.

    I have severe / profound hearing loss. At the tribunal the DWP argued that I only needed prompting for social engagement and the tribunal agreed (despite giving me 8 points for needing support to understand verbal communication).

    You can’t score points for this activity because of difficulties understanding what people are saying but if you become angry and frustrated with people because you can’t understand what they are saying them this could be seen as behaving in a socially inappropriate manner, which, in turn makes it difficult for you to establish relationships, both of which are covered by this activity. 

    With social engagement it is likely that a tribunal would ask you what you liked to do / what you were like before your hearing loss occurred to in order to assess what impact your ‘disability’ has had on this activity. If you didn’t mix with other people much before it could be difficult for them to see how it is the effects of the hearing loss that causes you difficulties engaging now.

    However mixing with others doesn’t mean you have to be the ‘life and soul of the party’.

    Before your hearing loss did you chat to or listen to your work colleagues? Did you ask where something was in a shop? Talk to someone in a queue? Ask for information / directions/ help?

    Any of this type of interaction which you no longer do, limit or minimise could be evidence of difficulties in this area caused by your hearing loss..

    The activity covers both people you know and people you don’t both in a 1-2-1 situation and in small groups.

    Do / Did you avoid group conversations or conversations with people you don’t know in case you mishear what is said and end up looking silly or do you avoid them because they make you feel frustrated?

    You can get points if engaging causes you anxiety because of looking ‘silly’ when you have to ask people to repeat what they said or you mishear what was said and say the wrong thing in response. I think you can also get points if the difficulties you have causes a lack of motivation to engage with people and you need to be prompted / encouraged to do so.

    As Mike has said, it is unlikely that you would score points for washing and bathing unless your hearing loss is severe enough that you wouldn’t hear a smoke alarm without your hearing aid in.

    Likewise I’ve never heard of someone getting points for preparing food just because they have hearing loss

    You mention a perching stool and, for dressing, a sock aid so I assume you have other difficulties aside from the hearing loss so there may be extra points for you in these activities. I don’t know anything about these activities so I can’t comment.

    Mobility

    Separately you may have a claim for Mobility activity 1 if you can not follow a route safely e,g, cross roads, hear approaching bikes, mobility scooters, reversing vehicles etc.

    As it is your right ear that is poor, this is the side that any traffic approaching comes from what you start to cross a road. You may also have difficulty locating where a sound is coming from - so think a vehicle is approaching from a different direction from where it actually is - and having difficulty judging how far away it is from you.

     If this is the case you may have a claim for enhanced mobility because not being able to hear traffic reliably is a danger whether the journey is familiar or unfamiliar.

     People will say that you can look for traffic if you can’t hear it but that is not the case. You can’t see round corners, over hills, through buildings, fences, parked cars etc.

     You may have difficulty following a route on public transport because you don’t understand announcements of early terminations, diversions etc.

     If there was background noise, would you be able to ask someone for directions if you became lost or assistance from a member of staff and understand what they were saying?

     You can send in any extra information and anecdotal evidence to the tribunal. The DWP will receive a copy of anything you send to the tribunal and the DWP will review the evidence before the tribunal (and do occasionally make an offer of an award before the tribunal takes place).

     I also only got 2 points for Communicating at both the assessment and mandatory reconsideration but I knew that this was completely wrong so went to tribunal and won. So if you think you meet the criteria it is worth continuing to tribunal.

     However if you don’t feel you meet the criteria it is better to let it go because the tribunal can only find in your favour if they have evidence that you meet enough of the descriptors to get an award no matter how much sympathy they have for your difficulties. 

    Hope this is helpful to you.

  • Andywheels56
    Andywheels56 Community member Posts: 45 Connected
    Yanni, I cannot thank you enough my friend. In your opening paragraph you have just described my symptoms perfectly i.e. high frequency loss. It may take me a while to read and fully absorb all the points you have made but you have given me renewed hope in my quest for PIP. 

    Just as an aside, and I know this isn't the correct thread, but could the same arguments be used for ESA. Applied in Jan, got accepted and just waiting for my work capability assessment which should be soon. Phoned the health advisory service yesterday and they said I was still on the list and it wouldn't be long now.
  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Community member Posts: 53,333 Disability Gamechanger
    edited October 2020
    The work capability ass3essment is totally different to PIP, with different criteria. See descriptors for both groups here.

    For NsESA you need to be placed into the Support Group, otherwise payments stop after 365 days.




    I would appreciate it if members wouldn't tag me please. I have all notifcations turned off and wouldn't want a member thinking i'm being rude by not replying.
    If i see a question that i know the answer to i will try my best to help.
  • Andywheels56
    Andywheels56 Community member Posts: 45 Connected
    Mike, I appreciate your openness and honesty, so I will share mine as regards the talking therapy. I have always been afflicted by what you might term as depression, never really felt good about myself, no self confidence whatsoever. You might not think so reading my threads but anybody can hide behind a keyboard. I have never been formally diagnosed by a doctor with it but have been prescribed various tablets through the years for it. My last employer recognised I had a problem as I kept having time of work. They paid for 6 meetings with a lady shrink through a company they use in warrington. I only went to 2 as I was in bits, I was a real mess and I couldn't carry on with the meetings. I convinced my company that I was fine and everything was alright but in reality it really wasn't.


    After I had been diagnosed with hearing loss and tinnitus I had a meeting with the senior nurse at the hospital. Prior to the meeting I had to fill in a questionnaire about the way I was feeling and how it had affected me. The senior nurse read my answers and said she wanted me to keep me in as they were concerned about my welfare. Again I convinced them otherwise and we talked about a plan of action going forward and we would review it at regular intervals. Christmas didn't go to well(it never does) so in january I referred myself to the primary care psychological therapy service run by our local hospital. The senior nurse had given me their details. In march they contacted me by phone to set up a meeting and yep, you guessed it, I chickened out again. I guess I am not destined to ever face up to talking about my demons.



  • yanni
    yanni Community member Posts: 91 Pioneering
    edited October 2020

    Mike 

    Andy has said several times that he has a mild hearing loss as well as the tinnitus.

    The loss was enough to cause him to seek medical intervention and the tinnitus bad enough to be referred to a tinnitus nurse which suggests it has had an impact on his ability to hear.

     If you have normal hearing you can’t know what extra impact tinnitus has on being able to understand what people are saying when you have hearing loss. This is especially true if the sound is buzzing, popping or crackling.

     With hearing loss you are trying to hear over the tinnitus noise with hearing that isn’t great to start with. My hearing test results have certainly worsened since my tinnitus started.


    A hearing aid doesn’t work for some people - hence the high number of people issued with a hearing aid who say it doesn’t help them and shove it in a drawer.

    A hearing aid can only use the remaining natural hearing. If the hair cells which transmit the high frequency sounds are damaged or dead no hearing aid will restore hearing to normal.

     As I said above, a mild high frequency loss makes it difficult to hear or distinguish sounds such as TH S and F so 

     “Even now though I’m struggling to think of a single PIP activity” can sound like

    “Even now    ough I’m  truggling to    ink of a  ingle PIP activity”

     Not being able to hear TH impacts words like THIS THAT THOSE THEY THERE THOUGHT THINK THING etc.

    Not being able to hear S impacts words like SAYS SOME SEE SIT IS ITS SHE HIS and lots, lots more.

     Add some background noise and it gets even harder.

     If the mild loss impacts the mid frequencies P H G and K become difficult to hear so the sentence may sound like:

     “Even now    ou         I’m  tru        lin     to    in     of a  in    le     I     activity”

     [Soapbox lecture over - wish I knew how to add those smiley faces]

     

    My understanding from the PIP guidance is that if the hearing aid can’t be used, the claimant should be assessed without it. Or if the aid doesn’t restore hearing to an acceptable level then a higher descriptor should be considered.

     Would that not be at least 4 points for needing support to understand complex verbal information (assuming it is for more than 50% of the time) ?

     I have not seen anything that says you can only get PIP if you have two hearing aids. The guidance says “a hearing aid”. 

     Andy said he has difficulty hearing on the phone - which suggest some reliance on lipreading - and when there is background noise.

     The use of lipreading is supposed to be excluded and the impact of background noise considered but it seems they rarely are.

    There is also the issue of distance. The assessor sits across a desk from you. In real life people do not usually stand or sit that close to you when speaking.

    The former assessor who used to post on here said words to the effect of ‘ if you can hear in the assessment we assume you can hear everywhere’ . When I asked her how she takes account of background noise and excluding lipreading the response was 'we don’t know about the legal stuff we just assess you'.

      That was my assessment experience. Nice quiet room, assessor facing me and speaking clearly. Not real life at all.

     Assessor decided I can hear with my hearing aids - 2 points.

     Tribunal awarded 8 points for communicating.

     I genuinely can’t see why if Andy has difficulty understanding speech either with his hearing aid or without it if he has good reason not to wear it, he would not qualify for extra points under Communication?

     Then possibly 2 points for needing prompting to engage due to anger and frustration at people when he can’t understand them (not behaving in a socially acceptable manner)? 

    (Not sure why being able to ask someone to repeat something means you don’t have any difficulty engaging with people.)

     And possibly 2 points each for needing a perching stool and a sock aid ? I appreciate he hasn’t explained why he needs these - as is his right - so we can’t know if he would or wouldn’t get points for these.

     I thought long and hard before I posted the above because I don’t want to give anyone the false impression that they will get PIP with hearing loss if they don’t stand a chance but in this case I thought it was more not understanding the descriptors and possibly not having a fair assessment rather than not being (possibly) eligible.

     Would appreciate your thoughts on the above?

  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Community member Posts: 53,333 Disability Gamechanger
    Advice has been given based on the information that was given.

    Even before a claim for PIP was started advice was given that 2 points would be possible and this was from an advice agency, although a score of zero was given once the decision was made, this still isn't enough for an award. If Andywheel had given all the information to the person from the advice agency about how their conditions affect them then i can't see how 8 points will be possible here.

    I have no idea where the aids come into it here because that seemed to be very random. When i asked if aids were bought by them or recommended by an OT i got the reply that "it was just blue sky thinking" so i took that as aids are not needed.

    For hearing aids i do believe it's 2, not just the one.
    I would appreciate it if members wouldn't tag me please. I have all notifcations turned off and wouldn't want a member thinking i'm being rude by not replying.
    If i see a question that i know the answer to i will try my best to help.
  • chiarieds
    chiarieds Community member Posts: 16,007 Disability Gamechanger
    Hi @yanni - & I appreciate you're trying to help with the knowledge you have of your own disorder, & also @Andywheels56 - From what the original poster has said, unfortunately it seems unlikely he would gain a PIP award, & reasons have been given.
    As far as other aids mentioned, such as a perching stool, their use may result in gaining points, but their justifiable use could mean you might lose points, as their theoretical use could mean you could do an activity/descriptor using them. As the OP hasn't clearly mentioned why he got such an aid, we're left with just looking at his tinnitus, & him trying to get the descriptors fitting his needs, rather than his needs fitting the PIP descriptors. Altho tinnitus may impact his daily life, unfortunately, as mentioned, this will unlikely get him an award of PIP.

Brightness

Do you need advice on your energy costs?


Scope’s Disability Energy Support service is open to any disabled household in England or Wales in which one or more disabled people live. You can get free advice from an expert adviser on managing energy debt, switching tariffs, contacting your supplier and more. Find out more information by visiting our
Disability Energy Support webpage.