Sexual harassment — Scope | Disability forum
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Sexual harassment

Audinut70
Audinut70 Community member Posts: 133 Pioneering
I need to know, if i approach a woman,say, in a bar to talk to her, she's either going to like me or not. If not, is that sexual harassment? I really dont know how i can meet a woman without potentially harassing her, as things are now. Maybe i could ask the bar tender, or would that still be harassment. 
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Comments

  • Cher_Alumni
    Cher_Alumni Scope alumni Posts: 5,741 Disability Gamechanger
    Hi @Audinut70

    This is an important subject to bring up as there's definitely a distinction between flirting and sexual harassment.  I'd say sexual harassment becomes just that when someone persists despite their intentions and advances being unwanted. 

    This Guardian article about Flirtation or sexual harrassment? also has this check-list which runs through some key things to consider when approaching a prospective partner:
     Is the way in which I'm making this advance likely to scare or alarm the person?
     Has the person already made it clear to me that they are uninterested in my advances?
     Does the speed at which my vehicle is moving rule out any likelihood of a response to this advance?
     Is this "advance" actually just a shouted and uninvited assessment on my part of this person's attractiveness/body/genitals?
     Does the context of this situation (a job interview, for example) make a direct sexual advance offensive or inappropriate?
    So as-long as the signals and verbal cues you are getting make it clear the woman wants your attention you shouldn't be concerned.  
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  • woodbine
    woodbine Community member Posts: 11,521 Disability Gamechanger
    edited March 2021
    If the lady tells you she's not interested and you continue thats harassment, as an adult it's down to us to know the difference and 99% of us do. but it has to be said that harassment can go both way. I have known many women over my long life but I have always known where the line should be drawn.
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  • leeCal
    leeCal Community member Posts: 7,550 Disability Gamechanger
    I met my partner at a party and that may have been an end to it but I knew the office she worked in and sent her flowers. If I hadn’t have done that we might never have got together properly. I only sent them once though, if sent flowers daily and she didn’t respond that would have been pestering and harassment. That’s scary for a woman obviously. It’d be scary for a male too!

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  • Audinut70
    Audinut70 Community member Posts: 133 Pioneering
    woodbine said:
    If the lady tells you she's not interested and you continue thats harassment, as an adult it's down to us to know the difference and 99% of us do. but it has to be said that harassment can go both way. I have known many women over my long life but I have always known where the line should be drawn.
    That goes without saying, watching the news today, the way things are going, well be expected to cross the street, because women get scared at the site of a man on the street, that is their words, not mine. The goal posts keep moving as to what they deem acceptable. 
  • woodbine
    woodbine Community member Posts: 11,521 Disability Gamechanger
    I think the goal post will remain exactly where they have always been, and what was unacceptable yesterday will still be that tomorrow.
    I will tell you this as a man I would think carefully before venturing out in the dark, thats not a comment on me or anybody it's just how it is and I doubt there is anything that can be done to change that.
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  • Audinut70
    Audinut70 Community member Posts: 133 Pioneering
    edited March 2021
    I'm not talking about acceptability, I'm talking about walking down the street! In daylight. So if i pull into a fuel station, do i wait in my car until the women are finished? I'm far from sexist, but the way men are being portrayed is totally unfair. This has gone way beyond harassment, this is saying they'll only feel safe if men are not visible. I would love to know the statistics on abuse to men. I'm one of them. And i mean the true numbers, i wouldn't embarrass myself reporting it, to be laughed at.
  • Geoark
    Geoark Community member Posts: 1,463 Disability Gamechanger
    @Audinut70

    I didn't hear the comment about during the day, as generally  it is more an issue either at night or in some more isolated areas. In part it is also about being aware of your own surroundings and behaviour and the potential affect on others.

    I have never had an issue with crossing a road at night if I am approaching a woman on her own, or even during the day if I think my being there is causing concern. Similarly if I am looking for directions I would not approach a woman on her own to ask.

    Similarly if I see a woman who I think is in distress, needs help or direction I will keep a respectful space when asking if they need help, if they say no I just move on. On the odd occasion where I have serious concerns I would call the local police and let them know, they can then check on the person.

    I do believe most men are decent, but the truth is the lived experience of many women is being harassed in some way by men. Most men are not rapists, sexual predators etc, but as a woman how would you know which are and which are not? It is not about being invisible, it is about being mindful of the potential affects we have on others.

    Also the true figures for abuse on men and women are not known as most of the time neither are reported. Neither is acceptable. While being laughed at would  not be appropriate, for many years women have not been believed, have been made to feel that in some way they were responsible either because of the way they dress, why were they in that area, what did they do to cause what happened. Too often the biggest critics were other women.  Fortunately this is changing but I still hear these things too often.

    From my experience most women are not interested in making men go away, ostracizing or even criminalising them, rather it is just a better understanding of how our actions, intentional or not affect them based on their lived experiences and respecting those. 


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  • Cher_Alumni
    Cher_Alumni Scope alumni Posts: 5,741 Disability Gamechanger
    @Audinut70 You mentioned that you have experienced abuse and I wondered what happened and if it's ongoing?  If you would prefer to discuss this privately, please email the team at community@scope.org.uk.  There's no shame or embarrassment attached to reporting abuse and the appropriate authorities are there to support you without judgement.  Please don't let any suggestion that this is otherwise stop you if you want to take things further.  
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  • Audinut70
    Audinut70 Community member Posts: 133 Pioneering
    How do i pm you? I can't find any facility for that. 
  • Cher_Alumni
    Cher_Alumni Scope alumni Posts: 5,741 Disability Gamechanger
    Audinut70 said:
    How do i pm you? I can't find any facility for that. 
    If you click on this link and type Cher_Scope in the recipients box and your message in the larger white box below that should work.  Let me know if you have any issues :)
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  • Audinut70
    Audinut70 Community member Posts: 133 Pioneering
    edited March 2021
    I wrote my message and got page 'cant be found' after sending. Ive just tried again, as soon as i open the message box, the recipient's name disappeared. I've lived with this for 28 years, it doesn't matter now anyway. 
     
  • Cher_Alumni
    Cher_Alumni Scope alumni Posts: 5,741 Disability Gamechanger
    edited March 2021
    @Audinut70 Oh no, thanks for informing me of that.  I'll chase it up and see what might be the problem.  If you email me at community@scope.org.uk all communications will be kept private, with only myself and the other team members privy to what you share.  We'd really like to offer you support if we can.

    Edited to add - I've just sent you a PM, if you can check that you've received it okay and get back to me if you have?
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  • Cher_Alumni
    Cher_Alumni Scope alumni Posts: 5,741 Disability Gamechanger
    @Audinut70 Would you be able to email over screenshots of the message that appears when you try to send a message?  We'll pass them onto our techy team to see what's afoot :)   
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  • Audinut70
    Audinut70 Community member Posts: 133 Pioneering
    The recipients name just keeps disappearing when i send,says i need at least one recipient. Cher_Scope, 
  • Kit_
    Kit_ Community member Posts: 31 Connected
    Many people are very emotional about recent events and may say things they don't necessarily mean, for example making comments about how all men are to blame etc, I'm sorry that people have been making you feel ignored or invalidating your experience.
    Many groups who talk about these issues do acknowledge that not all men cause these issues and that anyone can be harassed or abused, regardless of gender. I think we all need to learn how to respect people and their boundaries and act in a way that makes people feel safe, online as well as in real life, and regardless of gender. 
    Unfortunately the research that says that 95% of women have experienced sexual harassment shows that this is something that all women have to think about, and it seems that most women feel unsafe in their day to day lives. If any of us can do something that would make a stranger feel safer, should we not do it?

    I hope you and everyone reading this stays safe
  • Audinut70
    Audinut70 Community member Posts: 133 Pioneering
    I have a question, if the man of a woman's dreams approaches her, for say,a drink, is she going to consider that as unwanted attention, where if it was, her worst nightmare doing the same? As a man, the potential for me being labelled as showing unwanted attention, sexual harassment, depends on whether im good looking enough for her, or not.
  • Kit_
    Kit_ Community member Posts: 31 Connected
    “Attractive” men are definitely capable of harassment, I’m sure you can easily find stories of Hollywood actors who have made women feel uncomfortable and unsafe even though they are on magazine covers. Plus what counts as attractive is different for everyone. 
    If you are genuinely worried about accidentally harassing someone, remember to take queues from them, make sure they have a way to leave if they want to and are in a safe environment with other people present. If you enter into a situation with a respectful attitude and are mindful of how your actions could come across from the other person’s perspective, you are probably not going to be harassing them. 
    I don’t think that most women would consider being asked out by a man they aren’t attracted to as harassment as long as he takes the first no for an answer and doesn’t hold a grudge or continue to ask. Having said that, it is generally best to look for a sign that someone is attracted to you before you approach them. 

    Nobody wants to stop men from speaking to women under any circumstance, but context is important. 

  • Audinut70
    Audinut70 Community member Posts: 133 Pioneering
    edited March 2021
    So will someone make a clear definition of harassment? Unwanted attention. Unwanted by one woman, might be wanted to another. I'm a man, and basically, i wont go up to a woman anymore. We cant walk down the street, or behind, or just be around women without causing some degree of harassment, or fear, anxiety. Pubs and clubs will be separated soon.
    I have to add, i know 3 couples, now married, where the woman told him to go away at first. 
  • Kit_
    Kit_ Community member Posts: 31 Connected
    There is no standard, cover-all definition of harassment because everyone is different and has different boundaries or experiences. Women have men crossing streets to avoid men and changing  their behaviour to feel safe for decades, men are only now realising this and attempting to play their part and having conversations about it.  You do not “have” to do anything different at all but you should care about wanting women to feel safe on the streets and you should want to play your part. 
    Conversations like this one should always be centred around respect and empathy for women, almost all of whom have experienced the traumatic event that is sexual harassment. I don’t feel that you are doing that or engaging with anything that has been said by others so I will not continue to reply. 
  • Audinut70
    Audinut70 Community member Posts: 133 Pioneering
    edited March 2021
    I have to respect! Why is that exactly. Respect is earned, not a right. 2 women almost got me killed through false allegations, ruined my life for life. its ok to slander all men as potential predators, but its being insensitive defending ourselves. Defence, retaliation, is a right. Especially when im being labelled as scum, thats what i think of men that do abuse women.  My attitude to women, i still talk to ex girlfriends from my teens. Ive always tret women right, its a shame i cant say the same about women. 

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