DWP Fraud, Error and Debt Bill - ongoing thread
I’ll imagine we’ll hear more in coming months as there’s not much now (hopefully someone will get through to ministers how discriminatory this is towards disabled ppl and amendments will be made) - I’m hoping some common sense will prevail:
Comments
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This was an interesting read on the topic.
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i fail too see what's wrong with this stopping criminal gangs and fraudsters thats a good thing no? if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to worry about
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@apple85 I believe this bill simply extends the same powers to the DWP that have been available to HMRC for many years. Our bank accounts have been monitored for a long time, with any unusual transactions flagged, regardless of whether someone is rich or poor, able-bodied or disabled, and that information passed to HMRC. This surveillance is nothing new, it just means that the DWP will now also have access to the same information.
The statement from the new Fraud, Error, and Debt Bill suggests that its primary aim is to detect patterns within transaction data, a process already in place for bank accounts for quite some time. It explicitly states that It will not give DWP access to any bank accounts, nor any information on how claimants spend their money.
The new bill, while extending fraud prevention measures, must uphold privacy and trust. It should not shift the balance towards invasive surveillance. The commitment to protecting claimant's personal spending is a step in the right direction, but robust safeguards and transparency are needed to ensure just implementation.
Privacy is a fundamental human right, not just for those with something to hide. Constant surveillance creates an environment of fear and self-censorship, where innocent actions can easily be misinterpreted. Everyone deserves the freedom to live without unwarranted scrutiny.
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It's ridiculous how criminals are doing this to vulnerable people there should be stricter punishments
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The issue imo isn't the checking of eligibility just be checking someone's balance, it's the undisclosed algorithm for 'markers of fraud' and the fact that all of this is going to be handed over to an AI computerised system which will in turn report to the DWP AI computerised system which will be given ?powers? to what, suspend benefits awaiting investigation? Call claimants for under caution interviews? Stop rent payments?
For example, I have two accounts, obne basic cash account & one current account, it helps me manage my problems with impulse spending and helps me to save money for white goods, insurance etc. I often transfer money between these two accounts, sometimes several times a week. Will this be picked up and flagged by an algorithm? Some people get gifts of cash from relatives, marriages change surnames, many might live abroad even, will this be flagged? How many people could this affect, what might the AI system have the power to do to us while we wait, presumably for months or even years for a humans being to clear us and save us from destitution? How many of us will lose our homes while we wait??
All reasonable and so far unanswered questions. It's no good just saying "if you've nothing to hide you'll be fine" Tell that to the post office workers who lost everything! Surely we've been taught a lesson there about accusing innocent people, haven't we?
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They did state any flagged accounts Will be checked thoroughly by humans before jumping the gun.
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As said by Joseph Goebbels, the well known Nazi.
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There is always the tug between freedom from your privacy being intruded upon and ability of the government to tackle certain issues. It's likely we all draw the line in different places, but giving up freedom of privacy it should always be carefully considered and debated first. It is much harder to regain it than to keep it.
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I am the same. I am always transferring money from my current to savings account and vice versa as it helps me manage and not overspend as I am on such a tight budget. I sometimes get a bit confused with money and numbers these days. By trying to be sensible and frugal I fear it might go against me. Also, what if you get a refund for a return? Will that be flagged up? It is all very worrying and it's feeding into my paranoia. I do not trust anything or anyone anymore, especially if its anything to do with the government.
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They won't just check your bank accounts for no reason. A refund from something that you've bought and returned is not income so will not affect your UC entitlement.
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The new system will not allow the DWP to access your bank accounts or details about your spending habits. Your bank's algorithms are already familiar with the usual amounts that are deposited into your account and how you typically use your funds.
Transferring funds between your current and savings accounts is a common practice for millions of people managing their finances and is not viewed as suspicious. Similarly, receiving refunds is a routine part of everyday banking.
Receiving birthday or Christmas money from family members shouldn’t look suspicious. These are common and expected transactions, especially during holidays or special occasions, the bank knows your date of birth. Banks typically recognise these deposits as normal gifts and do not flag them as unusual activity. So, Meg, I wouldn’t worry about it, just carry on as you are and forget about it!
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I have thought about this some more, and I do understand the merits from it.
I expect the majority of fraud and error is means testing related.
This might eventually change to a fully automated efficient system where payments would automatically get adjusted month to month for people with savings between the two thresholds, without anyone having to report anything or fill in forms. Of course this is the DWP we are talking about, maybe it wont run as smooth as I believe it can.1 -
in my honest opinion I’m questioning if liz Kendall has succumbed to madness as it seems like she’s almost gone ‘drunk’ on power (otherwise known as the ‘liz truss power trip’)
(I’m honestly not sure how much I’m joking or being sarcastic - the woman seems like a mix of mcvey and truss which is a terrifying mix imo)
I know some are calling to give Labour more time to make changes and clarify things and too an extent I’m okay with that
but it’s taken Kendall 4 months to reach the same level of crackpot ideas it took the tories 14 years to reach (and she’s now surpassed this and gone into ‘stride wet dreams’ territories this past week)Reeves will have the final call in terms of budget (and bcos of the Tory leadership upcoming ragnarok like situ I understand the importance of giving Labour as a whole party rather than individuals alone a chance to fix things - it’s in all our interest they have some success)
but my minds made up on Kendall and honestly she’s not fit (or smart enough if I’m honest) for any minister role but especially the work&pensions brief)
and if starmer fires her from the role within the next 12 months (and not appoint worse) I’m happy to give him a clean slate (obviously that means sod all to prehaps the most ruthless pm since thatcher!)1 -
agree with everything you said 1,000% this woman is unhinged and dangerous and that truly is the politest I can do
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I've crashed and burned this is terrible absolutely terrible how much more can we take anxiety through roof
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these are the daily mail version of the telegraph story I posted last night and the comments which make interesting reading….
left leaning will certainly be against this type of policy and if readers of right leaning media is bringing things up like ‘breaking human rights’ and ‘opens the door for policy abuse and the net be widened over time’ - it sounds like the British public will be mostly on the same side on this one (abet for different reasons)I think there’s a good chance there will be major backlash from the uk public as a whole once officially announced and yet another major scandal for Labour
(Which would be good news for us as it means things won’t be buried and it puts backtracking/u turns on the table as a possibility)
Of topic but the guardian think that Labour targeting disability cuts will be labours next major scandal (scandals bring exposure and that is good news for the disabled community as it suggests ppl not directly affected by this may backlash on this - the ‘angry mob’ may work in our favour on this)
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Thankyou for sharing this
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Can't thank you enough for that info
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The initial article is no longer factually correct, as of Oct 2024. The DWP are routinely requesting bank statements for UC reviews; in addition to your passport and driving license. They don't need direct access to your bank account(s), if you don't share the information willingly, you loose your benefit. They are also asking questions about how you spend your money. Being disabled is tough, even if you've done nothing wrong, the stress of the process is horrible.
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