ESA - WCA Assessments to be scrapped in future?!

ElsieC1

Thought I would share this with everyone - this wil spark a major debate. Gov White Paper to be drawn up soon.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/sickness-benefit-kept-workforce-crisis-0cklxvs50

calcotti

Your headline isn’t what the article says.

ElsieC1

Ministers claim the current assessment process is 'perverse' - if you read it the 'inference' is that the capability for work assessment in its current form is seen as not 'fit' ( no pun intended) for purpose and would be scrapped - by scrapped of course we mean tweaked in favour of the Treasury - not in favour of those genuinely too ill / disabled to work.

I am certain we will be hearing more about this as the year progresses. Watch this space. 

calcotti

As I read it this is focused on reassessing people who obtain work. In reality it takes quite some time (a long time at the moment) to reassess people so people are retaining UC LCWRA element for a long time after returning to work. As usual I’m not sure that ministers understand the process. They could achieve their objective simply by producing a regulation or guidance that says that a reassessment should not be carried for a minimum of x months after a claimant returns to work. It clearly isn’t tenable for people to keep disability elements indefinitely. 

ElsieC1

I agree - it isn't tenable. The government, however, is right that the present assessment process is 'perverse'- the lengths to which some claimants - particularly, as I understand it, those with mental health issues

- have to go in order to prove their right to an out of work benefit.

ElsieC1

More on the Government's probable scrapping / overhaulling of the capability for work assessment and general disability benefit shake up this Spring.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/jan/12/disability-benefits-shake-up-still-claim-return-work

ElsieC1

Government's probable scrapping / overhaulling of the capability for work assessment and general disability benefit shake up this Spring. Important news for all on this forum.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/jan/12/disability-benefits-shake-up-still-claim-return-work

poppy123456

Duplicate thread here. https://forum.scope.org.uk/discussion/100856/esa-wca-assessments-to-be-scrapped-in-future#latest @Cher_Scope @Alex_Scope @Hannah_Scope maybe it's worth joining the threads together to save confusion.

Cher_Alumni

Thank you for sharing this @elsie I'm sure it's a topic that will spark interest and conversation amongst our members.

I've merged the two threads together to help us keep track of the ensuing discussion.

calcotti

Encouraging a return to work has long been government policy. It would be a change if there was more focus on incentives and/or removing disincentives rather than sanctions. However the narrative still seems to be driven by an underlying belief that there are lots of people who are malingering or ‘skiving’.

calcotti

More here
https://www.rightsnet.org.uk/welfare-rights/news/item/government-expected-to-publish-health-and-disability-white-paper-before-the-spring-budget-setting-out-ambitious-and-extensive-reforms
and from labour yesterday
https://labour.org.uk/press/jonathan-ashworth-speech-at-the-centre-for-social-justice/

Cher_Alumni

@calcotti Absolutely, there's an undertone of the 'undeserving poor' to these narratives isn't there? 

apple85

firstly I think the below link could be viewed as a preview for the disability white paper coming soon:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/out-of-work-disability-benefit-reform/out-of-work-disability-benefit-reform

second, if the dwp do rid of the current wca assessments (which are designed to trip people up and assessors at times pretty much lie or spin on the orders of above to wrongly fail people to save money) what would their guide in determining whether a person is ill or has a lifelong condition/disability? - surely an official diagnosis from professionals would be the fair thing to do (but as we are talking about the tories and the dwp I imagine it will be something worse than the current wca assessment systems - ie the new and ‘improved’ warm home discount criteria!)

third - way is Jonathan ashworth complaining that the tories are stealing his idea? - if the tories like your idea then it’s probably a bad and/or cruel idea (nothing to boost about) - first time I’ve wondered if there is some truth in those saying labour is no different than the tories (think tagline of AVP - “whoever wins we lose” - the ‘we’ being the sick and disabled)


Lastly as I doubt a person with real life experience of the current system is helping writing the nitty gritty - why don’t disability charities like scope compile their own white paper? 

The one thing the politicians are right about is the majority of disabled people do want to contribute to society either via work or volunteering or both.
Problem is that there’s a reason so many of us are scared of disclosing this to the dwp and I’ve read nothing from the Tory/labour disability reform speeches this week to think anything will change for the better

id put money on any reform ideas that the disabled/ill come up with would be significantly better than what a political comes up with

apple85

And yes, everytime this country needs to save money - the response always seems to be lets cut money or make life difficult for those that health isn’t good and can’t fight back and paint them as scroungers or undeserving to the media so they’ll get public support!

it’s getting old and as someone with disabilities I’m not sure how much more of this my sanity can take

calcotti

apple85 said:

.. why don’t disability charities like scope compile their own white paper? 

There has been no shortage of suggestions for reform made by charities and others over the years.

apple85 said:

firstly I think the below link could be viewed as a preview for the disability white paper coming soon:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/out-of-work-disability-benefit-reform/out-of-work-disability-benefit-reform

Sadly there is a long history of the government ignoring/rejecting suggestions put forward by SSAC.

durhamjaide2001

I think it will make the whole system easier 

rebel11

When you have decisions being overturned at the Appeal stage, then you know things aren't quite right with the process, you have the DWP potentially looking at the same claim three times.  That has a lot of consequences for everyone. Add the wasted resources to everything else.   

apple85

calcotti said:

apple85 said:

.. why don’t disability charities like scope compile their own white paper? 

There has been no shortage of suggestions for reform made by charities and others over the years.

apple85 said:

firstly I think the below link could be viewed as a preview for the disability white paper coming soon:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/out-of-work-disability-benefit-reform/out-of-work-disability-benefit-reform

Sadly there is a long history of the government ignoring/rejecting suggestions put forward by SSAC.

Apologies in advance for the rant below (and any future ones) - it seems a bit pointless to type so much that only a handful of people are going to read but I really believe that if the sick/disabled communities need to decide between (barely) surviving and actually living and mobilizer/organise (and yes I know I sound crazy but sometimes a person needs to risk sounding crazy)

I do agree with you that if history is anything to go by it’s a waste of time to make suggestions (at least in terms of the Tory party) - the previous shadow w&p minister before ashworth seemed halfway decent and Ed davey was/is both a carer for his parents and a parent of a disabled child so in an event of a coalition there may be hope there. As things stand labour may be in charge in 2025 and it will be in their best interest to differ themselves from the tories.

Going back to the waste of time point - believe me I hate doing things that will 99.9% be ignored but if you stop or give up all together then those in power will continue seeing the sick/disabled as the easiest lambs to slaughter and things will continue getting worse

those in the know will be able to tell me if suggestions made by charities in the past have been in the form of a many page official document or a statement or other. Also there are several uk disability charities in the uk, have they ever joined forces (not dissimilar to unions joining together for a general strike) - one united booming voice is going to be more effective than several whispers if you catch my meaning

Another thing is politicians the past few years have been very effective in using the media to smear anyone on the benefits system and giving us all the stereotype of a lazy sponger. Additionally for the sick & disabled there has been an increase in public asking or even just saying ‘it’s a lie that you’re sick/disabled and are faking it’ (obviously certain conditions are getting this attack line more than others) 

im not sure there has ever been a push from disability charities to really push the reality of the benefit situation for someone who is disabled (only really commenting on things the gov is trying to - I don’t see many opinion pieces from charities published in the big newspapers)

we know that politicians u-turn if the negative uproar is too loud - right now the disabled community are lots of little voices that are easy to ignore. How many people are there in the uk with a disability or long term sick - enough to make a large ruckus I imagine. Charities and their communities need to look at the big picture and work together to change the narrative of being just lazy as many see us (many people see the main problem with benefit claimants is they give nothing back to society - they don’t know that in a lot of cases people can’t or at least make it official without potentially losing everything - in many cases involving those with conditions the dwp are the problem, not the individual!)

calcotti

apple85 said: Also there are several uk disability charities in the uk, have they ever joined forces (not dissimilar to unions joining together for a general strike) - one united booming voice is going to be more effective than several whispers if you catch my meaning

Agreed. They do sometimes make joint submissions but, in my pinion, there is an unnecessary amount of duplication between charities (take for example every charity trying o explain the benefits system on their websites).

apple85 said: Another thing is politicians the past few years have been very effective in using the media to smear anyone on the benefits system and giving us all the stereotype of a lazy sponger. 

Agreed - but a large portion of the media appear to need no encouragement from the politicians to do this. Sadly much of the media will ignore information that contradicts their stand point.

calcotti

tomm said: And Due to this NET ZERO Green nonsense  there will be less employment available 

Green zero could produce many more jobs but the ‘green economy’ hasn’t been able to invest reliably because government policies keep changing so an investment cannot be made with confidence,

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1128689/mission-zero-independent-review.pdf
See section 3

darinfan

I think it's probably fair to say that having bits and pieces of the possible changes leaking out to the press in this way isn't particularly helpful because it's only giving parts of the story. 

There was news a month or two back that they were thinking of scrapping the £152 limit on earnings from permitted work, I think (from what I read) because not everyone works at the minimum wage, and that permitted work should perhaps focus on a set number of hours rather than pay.  This makes sense.  For example, if I was tutoring at university, I couldn't even do four hours of teaching a week and manage to keep it under £152.  I don't say that to show off, but just saying that the £152 limit (16 hours at minimum wage) just reinforces the idea that everyone ill or disabled doesn't have much to offer and are going to work at minimum wage and not aim for anything higher. 

And that, I guess, is where the WCA is extremely problematic.  It's based around whether you can lift a cardboard box above your head and pick up a pound coin (probably while doing the hokey cokey) among other things.  It doesn't ask if you can type, for example, or if you can use your English degree (if you have one) and work as a proof-reader.  The assumption it makes is that everyone's going to aspire to work in Poundland or, if you're really lucky, Greggs. 

I'm pretty sure everyone agrees that the current system is pretty awful, but there are dangers to us with regards to changing the WCA to take into account the things I mention, because you may be able to type some days and not others, making you unsuitable for regular work.  And you might only be able to do that proofreading if your mental health is in a good enough place for you to concentrate.  I use those instances just as examples, I might add, obviously everyone has their own individual skill sets.  The other issues is that you might be able to go to work for three hours one day, but then have to stay at home to recover for the two days that follow.  It's all very well concentrating on what you CAN do rather than what you can't, but it's not anything like as simple as that.  

Sadly, I fear the likelihood is that everything will continue to try and pigeon hole us rather than view us as individuals.  Certainly, though, ESA doesn't really work with regards to work.  If you're not on permitted work, you can't work at all.  And if you go £1 over your permitted work, your ESA stops.  That's a ludicrous ruling that makes no sense whatsoever.  Meanwhile, it's not encouraging someone on ESA to try work for a month or two to see how they get on (maybe that semester of teaching I mentioned), when they then have to go on Universal Credit if it doesn't work out, where they'll get considerably less money than they had before they tried work in the first place.  Where's the incentive to work in that?

The system is a mess, and considering the govt has only managed to screw things up over the last twelve years, I don't have much faith in their attempts to change things for the better.  I fear this will be much more an exercise in making the govt look good (if such a thing is humanly possible_ rather than an exercise in helping those who are ill and disabled.  I'd like to be proven wrong, though.