The future for the disabled claiming UC/ESA, etc - budget march 2023

MadCow1

Thanks @poppy123456 for your quick reply.
You've put my mind at ease. There was that much to take in. Now I am going to stop reading about it,as it just drives you mad.

worried33

Thought about this some more.

The government line is "scrapped the WCA"

But what have actually done is scrapped ESA altogether (IR version) and the new health topup is basically a disability premium akin to SDP.  They sold it as scrapping the assessment to get the public onside.

apple85

MadCow1 said:

Hi

Just a bit confused, I've read on the forum that it will be a few years yet before the new UC system will be implemented,but I've also read on 2 reports that says it will start spring 2023,but won't be rolled out nationally until 2024. Which is the right one?

https://www.turn2us.org.uk/Jargon-buster/Managed-Migration

Also @worried33 - yes the reform will be carnage if fully implemented BUT with a start date no earlier than 2026 (and ramping up in 2029) the one huge thing we’ve got in our favour is time (time to stop the reforms even making it to the starting line)

it was a given that the tories were going to sugar coat it (you just need to read ids article from yesterday to get that) - the tories also know that the majority of people already dealing with disability benefits won’t fall for it and neither will most disability/illness charities (apart from those on the gov payroll of course) 

the sugar coating is solely for the average member of the British public who will only read the headlines and not look into it further as it doesn’t affect them. Those who have researched or been told all the small print are pretty disgusted by the whole thing. The more people who know the small print the better possible outcome for this community 

and the upcoming election may change things again

so I’d recommend exhaling at least till after the next election as nothings going to happen till that is concluded 

worried33

I have sent a email to my MP (Labour and is a shadow minister, so likely to be in government next election), asked for her to support maintaining a safety net for those who will now lose it.

worried33

apple85 said:

MadCow1 said:

Hi

Just a bit confused, I've read on the forum that it will be a few years yet before the new UC system will be implemented,but I've also read on 2 reports that says it will start spring 2023,but won't be rolled out nationally until 2024. Which is the right one?

https://www.turn2us.org.uk/Jargon-buster/Managed-Migration

Also @worried33 - yes the reform will be carnage if fully implemented BUT with a start date no earlier than 2026 (and ramping up in 2029) the one huge thing we’ve got in our favour is time (time to stop the reforms even making it to the starting line)

it was a given that the tories were going to sugar coat it (you just need to read ids article from yesterday to get that) - the tories also know that the majority of people already dealing with disability benefits won’t fall for it and neither will most disability/illness charities (apart from those on the gov payroll of course) 

the sugar coating is solely for the average member of the British public who will only read the headlines and not look into it further as it doesn’t affect them. Those who have researched or been told all the small print are pretty disgusted by the whole thing. The more people who know the small print the better possible outcome for this community 

and the upcoming election may change things again

so I’d recommend exhaling at least till after the next election as nothings going to happen till that is concluded 

I have already started the ball rolling by contacting my MP.  just because its 3 years away it doesnt mean everyone should just wait, that 3 years will fly by before you know it.  In addition if enough public opposition is shown it might make Labour make it a policy in their manifesto to protect the safety net.

worried33

apple85 said:

Becky93 said:

barton85 said:

I get lcwra element but not pip feel like this news will be a real problem for me 

Long term it might be bad, but it seems current claimants will be protected for now at least. Especially when they're saying 2029 earliest for this to be implemented.

Plus at least 1 general election - there is time to figure this out for everyone if we work together as a community 

This couldnt be more true, I remember when the WCA came out the charities didnt oppose it well and were caught with their pants down, there should be no waiting or patting the government on the back, when you consider what they have done which is effectively abolish ESA, this country now has no sickness benefit (after this kicks in).

When they first announced WCA been removed I assumed would be replaced by a harsher assessment not to get rid of the benefit altogether.

worried33

Hi guys

I had a look at the planned migration of IR ESA to UC, as no doubt many here know now it got announced to be delayed in the autumn budget.

However when I looked at the government website I noticed the claims to be migrated on the new later data in 2028 is a small number (I think less than half of total ESA claims), in the notes above this there is a note that any ESA claims that involve tax credits will still be moved at the original dates, this is to facilitate shutdowns in HRMC.

NI based ESA does carry on crediting NI for claimants (So claimant is still a taxpayer but DWP pays on their behalf), its unclear to me, if these tax credits count in that statement potentially meaning those who get NI ESA with IR topups (both), might be moved early.  Or if it just means child tax credits which I dont know if can be had alongside ESA.

Details here

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/completing-the-move-to-universal-credit-learning-from-the-discovery-phase/completing-the-move-to-universal-credit-learning-from-the-discovery-phase

quote

By the end of 2024/25 we will have completed the moves of all legacy cases with tax credits (including those on both ESA and tax credits)

worried33

Rheumgirl59 said:

I wonder what effect it will have on people getting the esa that is not means tested. My understanding is that universal credit is means tested. I know if it happens it is some years off but am curious. As someone facing a wca assessment I like the idea of not having that but I fear what they give with one hand they will take back double!

For those only on NI based ESA, I dont see anything about it, so I believe they will stay put, potentially with no more WCA's as it wont make sense for the government to continue them when scrapping the system.  But they announce plans in the future.

poppy123456

worried33 said:

NI based ESA does carry on crediting NI for claimants (So claimant is still a taxpayer but DWP pays on their behalf), its unclear to me,

That's not correct, DWP do not pay anyones tax. If someone is claiming either contributions based ESA or New style ESA this doens't mean they are a tax payer. If their total taxable annual income is less than the £12,570 they will not pay any tax. If they are just claiming either New style ESA/contributions based they will not pay any tax because Support Group amount is £117.60/week.. annually £6,115.20, therefore no tax is payable.

worried33 said:

if these tax credits count in that statement potentially meaning those who get NI ESA with IR topups (both), might be moved early.  Or if it just means child tax credits which I dont know if can be had alongside ESA.

Tax credits have nothing to do with paying your taxes. Tax credits refers to Child Tax Credits/Working Tax credits (CTC/WTC), which is a benefit paid by HMRC.

There's still some people claiming ESA and tax credits at the same time. For managed migration those that are claiming Income Related ESA will not be migrated across to UC until at least 2028. For those claiming ESA and tax credits then they will still be migrated across to UC sometime up to the end of 2024 (if they achieve that date)

Those that are just claiming either contributions based/New style ESA will not be migrated to UC.

poppy123456

stormy said:

poppy123456 said:

worried33 said:

NI based ESA does carry on crediting NI for claimants (So claimant is still a taxpayer but DWP pays on their behalf), its unclear to me,

That's not correct, DWP do not pay anyones tax. If someone is claiming either contributions based ESA or New style ESA this doens't mean they are a tax payer. If their total taxable annual income is less than the £12,570 they will not pay any tax. If they are just claiming either New style ESA/contributions based they will not pay any tax because Support Group amount is £117.60/week.. annually £6,115.20, therefore no tax is payable.

worried33 said:

if these tax credits count in that statement potentially meaning those who get NI ESA with IR topups (both), might be moved early.  Or if it just means child tax credits which I dont know if can be had alongside ESA.

Tax credits have nothing to do with paying your taxes. Tax credits refers to Child Tax Credits/Working Tax credits (CTC/WTC), which is a benefit paid by HMRC.

There's still some people claiming ESA and tax credits at the same time. For managed migration those that are claiming Income Related ESA will not be migrated across to UC until at least 2028. For those claiming ESA and tax credits then they will still be migrated across to UC sometime up to the end of 2024 (if they achieve that date)

Those that are just claiming either contributions based/New style ESA will not be migrated to UC.

Contribution based ESA pays Nat Insurance Credits, is that what you are thinking of? Im on a joint ESA-UC claim and when my year on contribution based ESA was up and my WCA hadnt been done the ESA folk told me my ESA claim would stay as I would still get the Nat Insurance Credits... then when my WCA gave me LCWRA my contribution ESA payments started up again.

No, that's not what i meant. It doesn't "pay" any NI credits. You receive the class 1 NI credits when claiming ESA. New style ESA can't be a joint claim because it's based on your NI contributions so it can only be a single claim.

Unless placed into the Support Group then it's only paid for 1 year, which is why yours stopped after that time. Payments continue for as long as you remain entitled to it when placed into the Support Group.

UC is means tested so you would be claiming this with your partner. Your ESA will be deducted in full from any UC entitlement.

Becky93

stormy said:

worried33 said:

I too was sceptical the first moment I read it, they were never going to scrap the WCA without replacing it.

Now we know there is to be a fitness to work assessment in its place.

The problem is, just because you can maybe occasionally make phone calls or type a few thing son a computer it doesnt mean you employable.  Or that you can do it regularly at full time hours without there been a negative impact on your health.

I am guessing all the Legal precedents set during the WCA's reign are now invalidated as well? So all those errors will be made again.

Ironically I think its Labour who started the current process, they announced at the start of the year they felt the number of people getting back to work in the support group was unacceptable low and the Tories have jumped on it knowing there would be limited opposition to it.

Employers just arent set up to allow the kind of flexibility some conditions require; if flexibility isnt available you end up with excess sick leave which is considered "unreasonable" and you get fired (after being put through the wringer of written warnings).

So you are in full flare and you quit or got fired because you tried to work... been there too many times! Its not something that helps your mental health.

This is a big part of the problem of leaving more of the decision making on what work you can do to work coaches. Right now, work coaches are not trained to be able to do this, or at least if they are, the training is nowhere near good enough, they are just box ticking.

In a vacuum there's a degree of truth in saying a lot of people could do some kind of work, but in practice getting those people actual employers willing to employ them won't happen. For example my condition is such that if you could find me a job I could exclusively work from home in, where there was flexibility and acceptance that I will have bad days where I cannot work (and at short notice) I could theoretically do the job. The issue is in practice employers won't touch someone of that description with a barge pole, they will look elsewhere, and I understand it from their pov. So in practice you end up unemployable because of your condition.

The issue will be there will be a lot of deep suspicion that work coaches will use this to try and set you up with jobs you are deeply unsuitable for or send you on wild goose chases chasing jobs that will never employ you.

Becky93

stormy said:

Becky93 said:

stormy said:

worried33 said:

I too was sceptical the first moment I read it, they were never going to scrap the WCA without replacing it.

Now we know there is to be a fitness to work assessment in its place.

The problem is, just because you can maybe occasionally make phone calls or type a few thing son a computer it doesnt mean you employable.  Or that you can do it regularly at full time hours without there been a negative impact on your health.

I am guessing all the Legal precedents set during the WCA's reign are now invalidated as well? So all those errors will be made again.

Ironically I think its Labour who started the current process, they announced at the start of the year they felt the number of people getting back to work in the support group was unacceptable low and the Tories have jumped on it knowing there would be limited opposition to it.

Employers just arent set up to allow the kind of flexibility some conditions require; if flexibility isnt available you end up with excess sick leave which is considered "unreasonable" and you get fired (after being put through the wringer of written warnings).

So you are in full flare and you quit or got fired because you tried to work... been there too many times! Its not something that helps your mental health.

This is a big part of the problem of leaving more of the decision making on what work you can do to work coaches. Right now, work coaches are not trained to be able to do this, or at least if they are, the training is nowhere near good enough, they are just box ticking.

In a vacuum there's a degree of truth in saying a lot of people could do some kind of work, but in practice getting those people actual employers willing to employ them won't happen. For example my condition is such that if you could find me a job I could exclusively work from home in, where there was flexibility and acceptance that I will have bad days where I cannot work (and at short notice) I could theoretically do the job. The issue is in practice employers won't touch someone of that description with a barge pole, they will look elsewhere, and I understand it from their pov. So in practice you end up unemployable because of your condition.

The issue will be there will be a lot of deep suspicion that work coaches will use this to try and set you up with jobs you are deeply unsuitable for or send you on wild goose chases chasing jobs that will never employ you.

Yes I even tried self employment for a while thinking if I was my own employer I could be flexible with myself LOL.

But self employment is hard work, there is so much of its thats unpaid hours so if you are limited in how many hours you can do in order to stay flexible enough to cope with illness you can find yourself not having enough hours to earn money after all the self employment clerical stuff. UC assumes certain hourly rates for self employment too.

I had one bit of work from a local organisation that was flexible enough and not overly burdened with unpaid extra hours; but it didnt pay enough for me to be able to declare my heating costs for sitting at the desk and still leave me with a minimum hourly wage rate of pay (this was a few years ago now).
Heating costs are of course even higher now which is going to make desk work from home very difficult as most of the self employed work in that area is quite low pay to start with (if not min wage to start with). 

I know from that experience with flexible self employment that chronic illness and trying to work can be way too much to juggle emotionally if you illness is affecting basic life tasks. I was completely burnt out by it and lowered my hours to the minimum to try to cope before eventually spending about three months "off sick" in bed.
This country doesnt have the support in place for us to live decently with chronic illness, it leaves in state where we are not coping and the pressure of trying to work on top can really mess you up.

And of course the issue will be because of deep mistrust of work coaches, there will be a feeling that if you start telling work coaches what you could hypothetically do in a vacuum, they will use this to say you can work and cut your benefits, while the reality being no-one would actually employ you because of your health condition.

Indeed the system already pretty much works like that in the work capability assessment to begin with, and it will be even worse with work coaches making the decisions and having the ability to issue sanctions.

JBS2022

The government has stated they will be opening up 50,000 work placements a year for the disabled. So that restricts the amount of jobs they can force people to get, I suspect this will be initially aimed at the disabled who want to work but don't because they fear getting benefits stopped. I seriously doubt they will just force millions of people to get a job.

apple85

stormy said:

Yes I even tried self employment for a while thinking if I was my own employer I could be flexible with myself LOL.

But self employment is hard work, there is so much of its thats unpaid hours so if you are limited in how many hours you can do in order to stay flexible enough to cope with illness you can find yourself not having enough hours to earn money after all the self employment clerical stuff. UC assumes certain hourly rates for self employment too.

I had one bit of work from a local organisation that was flexible enough and not overly burdened with unpaid extra hours; but it didnt pay enough for me to be able to declare my heating costs for sitting at the desk and still leave me with a minimum hourly wage rate of pay (this was a few years ago now).
Heating costs are of course even higher now which is going to make desk work from home very difficult as most of the self employed work in that area is quite low pay to start with (if not min wage to start with). 

I know from that experience with flexible self employment that chronic illness and trying to work can be way too much to juggle emotionally if you illness is affecting basic life tasks. I was completely burnt out by it and lowered my hours to the minimum to try to cope before eventually spending about three months "off sick" in bed.

Neither the tories or labour are looking at the bigger picture (or refusing to):

- the public (and employers) stereotypes of the sick and disabled is the lowest it’s been in my adult life (part of this is because the tories have been successful in painting the majority on benefits as scroungers, lazy and lazy) many employers don’t want to touch us because we seem too much trouble, those who do may underpay us compared to our fully able colleagues or not adjust to our needs (when you grow up with a disability you are told people will make adjustments for you when the opposite is true - if we have a job it’s like having 2 jobs at once, the actual job and also being as normal as possible and adapt to others needs……it’s exhausting)
Before a government should even attempt anything like this reform they need to change public perception of sickness and disability to something more emphatic and in all honestly that will take years, if not decades

- if the government is serious about getting the long term disabled into the working world then currently self employment is their best bet. However 2 things totally destroy this - the minimum income floor and the risk that if you try to work you may no longer be seen as ‘disabled’ 
For this reason everyone with a diagnosed disability should be exempt from the minimum income floor regardless of what benefits they are (the wrag and uc equivalent get exactly the same as the fully abled claimant so it should be doable) I don’t agree in photo ID cards but prehaps being issued one when you officially get diagnosed that the dwp can’t argue against may be a possible answer

- I honestly believe that encouraging volunteer work should be a priority for the long term sick/disabled rather than paid employment with no threat of losing benefit or triggering a new assessment. There is more flexibility in volunteer work and it’s still a contribution which is what public want. For example we know that school children are struggling after covid, classes are overstuffed and teachers are expected to do too much. What if an online service was created where anyone could log onto when they had time or was feeling well enough and could help in a topic they are confident in via a service like zoom (obviously police checks would need to be done but that was only £20 last time I checked)
prehaps that was a bad idea but point is that the disabled shouldn’t be the solution to filling job vacancies as we are most likely the least suitable but via volunteer work we can fit into our disability needs we could really give something back to this country


thats just me - many of you will probably disagree or think it’s a pipe dream. But it’s no worse than what the tories and labour are coming up with!

apple85

@Becky93

100% this and I think a lot of us would agree with you 

sadly we have a lot of politicians who stick their fingers in their ears and go ‘lalala’

i may do what a few on here is doing and write to my most local mp (pointless writing to a Tory mp in my experience but I’ve had help from labour mps that weren’t even my constituency in the past)