nav[aria-label="Primary Navigation"] { padding: 0; & ul { list-style: none; width: 100%; display: flex; flex-direction: row; justify-content: start; align-items: start; gap: 30px; padding: 0; & li { margin: 0; } & ul li { list-style: none; } } }

We want to hear from you: please tell us about your experience of the online community.

How does a PIP review work if your initial claim was won at tribunal?

Becky93

From reading threads about PIP reviews, it makes me a little anxious thinking how they work if your initial decision was won at tribunal. It sounds like effectively you are re-assessed as per the original assessment. The issue with this though is what exactly is stopping them from coming to the same conclusion they came to the first time, and ignoring your reasons you should be eligible for PIP?

In effect does the tribunal from the original claim even get taken into account for why you should still be eligible for PIP.

This is particularly concerning in my case because the DWP completely ignored the parameters I was saying I should be assessed on the first time around, so why wouldn't they do so again, when it seems doing so is very common place in particularly with mental health conditions.

Find more posts tagged with

Comments

JBS2022

You will usually get asked to reapply for PIP instead of an automatic review

Becky93

JBS2022 said:

You will usually get asked to reapply for PIP instead of an automatic review

Which even more so drives a fear they will just come to the same conclusion they did the first time surely?

Like if you even mention you won on tribunal last time on effect the same claim, will this even be taken into account? As I can already see their line being how they have to judge you on how you are now, rather than an assessment years ago.

JBS2022

I can't understand why they can't just review you normally instead of being asked to reapply, especially since you were awarded successfully at tribunal. I've never understood this.

janer1967

It's like a new claim as its dwp you are applying to and they didn't make the decision on your award the tribunal did

You can mention you won at tribunal and why they ruled in your favour

Becky93

JBS2022 said:

I can't understand why they can't just review you normally instead of being asked to reapply, especially since you were awarded successfully at tribunal. I've never understood this.

And of course your benefits will be cut in the mean time!

I have absolutely zero faith the DWP wouldn't just award me 0 points in a re-assessment, as they showed zero understanding last time of their own regulations even when I continually pointed them out. I would talk about apples, and they'd come back writing about oranges. So it seems absolutely ludicrous if they don't even take into account that they lost a tribunal on the same case for the same reasons before.

It's also the stress the process actually places on you. It is extremely stressful to feel like your banging your ahead against the wall with assessors who it doesn't even feel like are reading what you are saying about the parameters you should be getting judged upon.

JBS2022

janer1967 said:

It's like a new claim as its dwp you are applying to and they didn't make the decision on your award the tribunal did

You can mention you won at tribunal and why they ruled in your favour

I didn't know that, thanks.

janer1967

They will only take into account how your condition is now

Becky93

janer1967 said:

It's like a new claim as its dwp you are applying to and they didn't make the decision on your award the tribunal did

You can mention you won at tribunal and why they ruled in your favour

Do you have any recommendations for how far in advance you should apply before your ending date in this scenario?

The issue here is right now of course it takes about a year to actually get from applying to PIP to a tribunal, but if you apply a year before your end date, you're being judged back to a date you were already receiving PIP in the first place, so surely you can't actually apply for PIP if you are already receiving it.

janer1967

You should get a letter reminding you that you should reapply about 14 weeks before

If you apply early and they make a new decision your current award will end so if its not in your favour your payments would end

Also bear in mind you may not end up at tribunal so it may not take a year

I would suggest you get some expert advice from welfare rights or cab before doing anything

Becky93

janer1967 said:

You should get a letter reminding you that you should reapply about 14 weeks before

If you apply early and they make a new decision your current award will end so if its not in your favour your payments would end

Also bear in mind you may not end up at tribunal so it may not take a year

I would suggest you get some expert advice from welfare rights or cab before doing anything

Thank you.

From that it seems the optimal time to reapply will be around 12 weeks before then, as that's about how long it appears them to take to get to an initial decision to begin with.

When you say your payments would end, if you hypothetically apply 12 weeks before your end date, and they then say you were due nothing, they won't say you have to pay back the 12 weeks of benefits you were paid in the mean time will they?

Becky93

janer1967 said:

They will only take into account how your condition is now

I understand this. My issue is given my dealings with the DWP last time, my feeling is I could write the exact same things as last time and give the same answers in an assessment tomorrow, and they would come to the exact same conclusion they did last time of awarding 0 points.

Without the tribunal decision having any influence in their decision making, I would not expect them to change their minds, as they did not appear last time to understand how to apply regulation 4 2(A) in cases, and from research online this is common place and normal as it's claimed most assessors are not aware of the regulation, and that to claim on it you will likely end up at tribunal.

In effect my case becomes a pure legal one, as if the assessor does not apply the above part of the regulations correctly they will never rule in my favour, as me saying I shower and wash myself, but it takes me 2 hours to do so as a result of condition will only ever qualify me for PIP if they take into account this part of the regulations.

poppy123456

Becky93 said:

From that it seems the optimal time to reapply will be around 12 weeks before then, as that's about how long it appears them to take to get to an initial decision to begin with.

At the moment decisions are taking a lot longer than 12 weeks. 12 weeks is the time it takes from when the report was returned to DWP. Most people have assessments so it's likely you'll need another of those.

Becky93 said:

I understand this. My issue is given my dealings with the DWP last time, my feeling is I could write the exact same things as last time and give the same answers in an assessment tomorrow, and they would come to the exact same conclusion they did last time of awarding 0 points.

If you did this the next time then yes they could come to the same decision they did before. My advice would be to put as much detail as possible when filling out the forms. Include a couple of real world incidents of exactly what happened the last time you attempted each descriptor that applies to you. Adding detailed information such as where you were, what exactly happened, did anyone see it and what the consequences were.

A lot of people are refused because of poorly completed claim packs.

nasturtium

Becky93 said:

Without the tribunal decision having any influence in their decision making, I would not expect them to change their minds, as they did not appear last time to understand how to apply regulation 4 2(A) in cases, and from research online this is common place and normal as it's claimed most assessors are not aware of the regulation, and that to claim on it you will likely end up at tribunal.

Hello Becky

You need to spell out in detail why you cannot do the PIP activity under regulation 4 2(A).

Regulation 4(2A) of the main PIP regulations provides - Where [a claimant's] ability to carry out an activity is assessed, [the claimant] is to be assessed as satisfying a descriptor only if [the claimant] can do so - (a) safely; (b) to an acceptable standard; (c) repeatedly; and (d) within a reasonable time period. https://pipinfo.net/issues/reliably

So lets say for example we take the activity of preparing food then you need to expain in detail including some examples of when things went wrong or it was unsafe and who witness the event (if anyone did) as your anicdotal evidence on your form. Remember you need to link your problems to a condition.

So for example if you had arthritis in your hands you could say:-

I have long term arthritis in both hands and cannot prepare a simple meal safely because...... I need to use the aid of a auto chopper to safely cut and slice fresh ingredients because I am prone to injuring myself and the last time I tried to cut vegetables I cut my finger and it took 15 minutes to stop the bleeding and my husband/wife/partner had to hold a towel on my finger to sto the bleeding. Although I use the aid of a auto chopper my husband/wife/partner has to cut the items for the auto chopper for me so they will fit into the auto chopper.

The above is just a very brief example I just made up but it is upto you to give a more accurate and detailed description based on your condition/conditions.

You can then go on to say in detail why it takes you a long time?

Can you do the activity repeatedly throughout the day? If not why can you do it repeatedly?

What aids you use, if you use aids why do you use those aids, what function do the aids replace, what would happen if you did not have those aids?

What assistance or supervision do you need? Why do you need that assistance or supervision? What would happen if you did not have assistance or supervision?

I can go on and on but it is a matter of understanding the activity, the descripters and the limitations of your condition/conditions to complete the 12 PIP activities under Regulation 4(2A).

Hope that helps

Nasturtium

Becky93

poppy123456 said:

Becky93 said:

From that it seems the optimal time to reapply will be around 12 weeks before then, as that's about how long it appears them to take to get to an initial decision to begin with.

At the moment decisions are taking a lot longer than 12 weeks. 12 weeks is the time it takes from when the report was returned to DWP. Most people have assessments so it's likely you'll need another of those.

Becky93 said:

I understand this. My issue is given my dealings with the DWP last time, my feeling is I could write the exact same things as last time and give the same answers in an assessment tomorrow, and they would come to the exact same conclusion they did last time of awarding 0 points.

If you did this the next time then yes they could come to the same decision they did before. My advice would be to put as much detail as possible when filling out the forms. Include a couple of real world incidents of exactly what happened the last time you attempted each descriptor that applies to you. Adding detailed information such as where you were, what exactly happened, did anyone see it and what the consequences were.

A lot of people are refused because of poorly completed claim packs.

Thank you, but I'm not convinced it will make much difference with many assessors.

I don't really think lack of detail was the problem with my claim last time. Because of my prior experience with the work capability assessment I went into the PIP assessment very well prepared from the off. I didn't really add any extra detail from start to finish on how my condition affects me, it was already there from the beginning. The main thing I added in mandatory reconsideration and appeal was about the regulations that apply to my case and the case law supporting it, but my case had always been about those regulations from the off, I just didn't think it wise to openly mention it from the start as it sounds then like you're gaming the system/telling them how to do their job. The DWP just plain ignored this/didn't take it into account, which is why they lost the tribunal as they literally just aren't apply the law in my case. It doesn't matter how much detail I give about how slow I am undertaking tasks if the DWP do not recognise that as qualifying you for PIP which was my experience of them. Indeed one of the DWP's main arguments going into the appeal last time was that my condition didn't qualify me for PIP, as it didn't prevent me actually completing the tasks in the descriptors.

So with that in my mind I don't really see what I can do, other than cross my fingers and hope I get an assessor who has some kind of understanding of this area of the law. I can of course mention my prior tribunal and hope that makes a difference, but like I say it's kind of difficult to go in from the start and say you need to judge my ability to undertake the descriptors taking into account Regulation 4 2(A) of the PIP regulations as it will look extremely patronising I imagine.

Becky93

nasturtium said:

Becky93 said:

Without the tribunal decision having any influence in their decision making, I would not expect them to change their minds, as they did not appear last time to understand how to apply regulation 4 2(A) in cases, and from research online this is common place and normal as it's claimed most assessors are not aware of the regulation, and that to claim on it you will likely end up at tribunal.

Hello Becky
You need to spell out in detail why you cannot do the PIP activity under regulation 4 2(A).
Regulation 4(2A) of the main PIP regulations provides - Where [a claimant's] ability to carry out an activity is assessed, [the claimant] is to be assessed as satisfying a descriptor only if [the claimant] can do so - (a) safely; (b) to an acceptable standard; (c) repeatedly; and (d) within a reasonable time period. https://pipinfo.net/issues/reliably
So lets say for example we take the activity of preparing food then you need to expain in detail including some examples of when things went wrong or it was unsafe and who witness the event (if anyone did) as your anicdotal evidence on your form. Remember you need to link your problems to a condition.
So for example if you had arthritis in your hands you could say:-
I have long term arthritis in both hands and cannot prepare a simple meal safely because...... I need to use the aid of a auto chopper to safely cut and slice fresh ingredients because I am prone to injuring myself and the last time I tried to cut vegetables I cut my finger and it took 15 minutes to stop the bleeding and my husband/wife/partner had to hold a towel on my finger to sto the bleeding. Although I use the aid of a auto chopper my husband/wife/partner has to cut the items for the auto chopper for me so they will fit into the auto chopper.
The above is just a very brief example I just made up but it is upto you to give a more accurate and detailed description based on your condition/conditions.
You can then go on to say in detail why it takes you a long time?
Can you do the activity repeatedly throughout the day? If not why can you do it repeatedly?
What aids you use, if you use aids why do you use those aids, what function do the aids replace, what would happen if you did not have those aids?
What assistance or supervision do you need? Why do you need that assistance or supervision? What would happen if you did not have assistance or supervision?
I can go on and on but it is a matter of understanding the activity, the descripters and the limitations of your condition/conditions to complete the 12 PIP activities under Regulation 4(2A).
Hope that helps
Nasturtium

Thank you.

The issue is I did this last time. So in effect I had been told that I would qualify for PIP under regulation 4 2(A) before I applied. For the daily living activities it nearly entirely relates to the time it takes me to do the tasks. From the very beginning in my application I was very detailed in how long it takes me to complete each descriptor, meaning in some cases I simply don't do them eg. cooking meals, as it's not practical and stressful to repeatedly undertake the task as a result of the time it would take me. The DWP's argument was pretty much this does not qualify me for PIP as I am able to complete the tasks. When I then subsequently pointed exactly to regulation 4 2(A) stating that you have to be able to complete the tasks in a "reasonable time period" defined as no longer than twice as long as someone without a medical condition, and case law of prior cases in tribunal showcasing this standing up in court it was simply ignored. At no point across at least 3 assessors did any of them accept this meant I qualified for PIP.

The tribunal used the same information to award me maximum points on 4 of the daily living descriptors after the DWP had awarded me 0 all of them. If I cannot get the DWP to apply the relevant law I think it's near certain they will award the same points again, no matter how much detail I give. Even for the 10 points I was awarded on planning and following a route at the tribunal, a portion of it it relates to the time it takes to me to prepare to go out, but again the DWP continually ignored/did not accept this was relevant in terms of qualifying under the descriptor.

Breacon

nasturtium said:

Becky93 said:

Without the tribunal decision having any influence in their decision making, I would not expect them to change their minds, as they did not appear last time to understand how to apply regulation 4 2(A) in cases, and from research online this is common place and normal as it's claimed most assessors are not aware of the regulation, and that to claim on it you will likely end up at tribunal.

Hello Becky
You need to spell out in detail why you cannot do the PIP activity under regulation 4 2(A).
Regulation 4(2A) of the main PIP regulations provides - Where [a claimant's] ability to carry out an activity is assessed, [the claimant] is to be assessed as satisfying a descriptor only if [the claimant] can do so - (a) safely; (b) to an acceptable standard; (c) repeatedly; and (d) within a reasonable time period. https://pipinfo.net/issues/reliably
So lets say for example we take the activity of preparing food then you need to expain in detail including some examples of when things went wrong or it was unsafe and who witness the event (if anyone did) as your anicdotal evidence on your form. Remember you need to link your problems to a condition.
So for example if you had arthritis in your hands you could say:-
I have long term arthritis in both hands and cannot prepare a simple meal safely because...... I need to use the aid of a auto chopper to safely cut and slice fresh ingredients because I am prone to injuring myself and the last time I tried to cut vegetables I cut my finger and it took 15 minutes to stop the bleeding and my husband/wife/partner had to hold a towel on my finger to sto the bleeding. Although I use the aid of a auto chopper my husband/wife/partner has to cut the items for the auto chopper for me so they will fit into the auto chopper.
The above is just a very brief example I just made up but it is upto you to give a more accurate and detailed description based on your condition/conditions.
You can then go on to say in detail why it takes you a long time?
Can you do the activity repeatedly throughout the day? If not why can you do it repeatedly?
What aids you use, if you use aids why do you use those aids, what function do the aids replace, what would happen if you did not have those aids?
What assistance or supervision do you need? Why do you need that assistance or supervision? What would happen if you did not have assistance or supervision?
I can go on and on but it is a matter of understanding the activity, the descripters and the limitations of your condition/conditions to complete the 12 PIP activities under Regulation 4(2A).
Hope that helps
Nasturtium

Oh my dear Nasturtium, that's the best explanation I have read in 7 months, how brilliantly explained, for me, to try & understand, what PIP are looking for in my answers.
That really does give me an insight.
Would it be possible to give a scenario in terms of washing/bathing. My daughter washes my hair, lower legs feet & back. I tend to **** wash & hold onto the sink, it takes me forever, but I manage, my daughter or sister help me with a shower 1 x weekly, I explained this, to the assessor, but diddnt score any points....I'm not in the shower long, as standing can be difficult.....I would very much appreciate your advice or input.
I am at a total loss.

Cartini

Breacon said:

nasturtium said:

Becky93 said:

Without the tribunal decision having any influence in their decision making, I would not expect them to change their minds, as they did not appear last time to understand how to apply regulation 4 2(A) in cases, and from research online this is common place and normal as it's claimed most assessors are not aware of the regulation, and that to claim on it you will likely end up at tribunal.

Hello Becky
You need to spell out in detail why you cannot do the PIP activity under regulation 4 2(A).
Regulation 4(2A) of the main PIP regulations provides - Where [a claimant's] ability to carry out an activity is assessed, [the claimant] is to be assessed as satisfying a descriptor only if [the claimant] can do so - (a) safely; (b) to an acceptable standard; (c) repeatedly; and (d) within a reasonable time period. https://pipinfo.net/issues/reliably
So lets say for example we take the activity of preparing food then you need to expain in detail including some examples of when things went wrong or it was unsafe and who witness the event (if anyone did) as your anicdotal evidence on your form. Remember you need to link your problems to a condition.
So for example if you had arthritis in your hands you could say:-
I have long term arthritis in both hands and cannot prepare a simple meal safely because...... I need to use the aid of a auto chopper to safely cut and slice fresh ingredients because I am prone to injuring myself and the last time I tried to cut vegetables I cut my finger and it took 15 minutes to stop the bleeding and my husband/wife/partner had to hold a towel on my finger to sto the bleeding. Although I use the aid of a auto chopper my husband/wife/partner has to cut the items for the auto chopper for me so they will fit into the auto chopper.
The above is just a very brief example I just made up but it is upto you to give a more accurate and detailed description based on your condition/conditions.
You can then go on to say in detail why it takes you a long time?
Can you do the activity repeatedly throughout the day? If not why can you do it repeatedly?
What aids you use, if you use aids why do you use those aids, what function do the aids replace, what would happen if you did not have those aids?
What assistance or supervision do you need? Why do you need that assistance or supervision? What would happen if you did not have assistance or supervision?
I can go on and on but it is a matter of understanding the activity, the descripters and the limitations of your condition/conditions to complete the 12 PIP activities under Regulation 4(2A).
Hope that helps
Nasturtium

Oh my dear Nasturtium, that's the best explanation I have read in 7 months, how brilliantly explained, for me, to try & understand, what PIP are looking for in my answers.
That really does give me an insight.
Would it be possible to give a scenario in terms of washing/bathing. My daughter washes my hair, lower legs feet & back. I tend to **** wash & hold onto the sink, it takes me forever, but I manage, my daughter or sister help me with a shower 1 x weekly, I explained this, to the assessor, but diddnt score any points....I'm not in the shower long, as standing can be difficult.....I would very much appreciate your advice or input.
I am at a total loss.

Hi Becky93,

As well as the comprehensive advice Nasturtium has given you, I hope this will help; this is what I put in my application (I have spondylosis and stenosis):

**********************

On the days I`m not in the mood for a shower, I have to force myself to have a “bird bath”; a **** wash using the bathroom sink. This in itself is not hazard free, I use the sink or the towel rail next to the sink for stability when facing the sink; when I wash my feet I lift and rest them on the bath side and hold the sink with one hand for stability.

Facing the sink isn`t pain free; I have to bend slightly to rinse my hands, face and the face cloth that I use. This causes a vice like grip that starts as a dull ache and then gets worse the longer I stoop.

***********************

You need to emphasise safety (hence my hazard comment above) or what worries you from a safety point of view. I no longer have baths, so I put this in my application:

***********************

I don`t have baths anymore; I found it too difficult to get in & out of the bath and as my spondylosis worsened I didn`t feel safe having a bath; I constantly worried about slipping / falling and hurting myself. As a child I did slip in the bath - I have a scar to the left of my left eye as a reminder of that day (I still have an image of a bath with lots of blood in it).

***********************

As for showering:

***********************

As my spondylosis started to get worse, I had a grab-bar fitted in the bathroom to assist climbing into, and out of, the bath. Even with a grab bar, it`s getting more and more difficult to get my legs over the bath side (to use an “over the bath” shower).

Despite having a grab bar, I don`t always feel safe using it. I worry about slipping when I`m getting out of the bath (after using an "over the bath shower") in that I have to **** one leg then the other while moving sideways to get out of the bath (I have to go sideways to prevent twisting at the base of my spine). I`m concerned that, with my hands being moist, I may lose my grip and fall. This really worries me. A walk in shower would remove the potential danger of a slip fall. Unfortunately a walk-in shower is out of my financial reach. Living on my own, I`m always concerned about having a shower. I would much rather have the reliability of someone helping me in and out of the shower than relying on a grab-bar with a wet hand.

***********************

I hope this gives you a bit of help. My comments most likely won`t fit your scenario completely, but hopefully they`ll help you in other ways.

If you have any questions, please fire away.

Andy

Becky93

I guess one of main other questions is if you apply say 3-4 months before you current PIP award ends, and they assess you as not qualifying for PIP will they expect you to pay to pay 3-4 months of PIP you have been paid since you applied.

I ask this as a follow up basically to being told that if you aren't successful you will lose your award, and obviously if this is the case it makes it not remotely in your interests to apply until your PIP reward is over.

Breacon

Thank you so much for your advice, it is sooooo very much appreciated, in fact, it has made me very emotional, that I at long last are having a better understanding, as what I need to relay to pip.
I feel, they have totally disregarded everything I have said to them, & certainly never been offered the opportunity to explain fully, they interrupt, twist & turn everything I try to say, I then clam up, & they have taken full advantage of my poor knowledge in terms of pip, to the point, They think I'm inconsistent, & not telling the truth.
Looking back, I'm surprised they haven't tipped me over the edge to be honest.
The whole system & process, needs to be reformed, but it has given me a great boost been on this site, & I can't thank you all enough, its great not to feel so alone.
I've learned more tonight, than I have over 7 months.
A big thank you to Poppy also, for sending me the link, which was very informative also.
Thank you all again.

janer1967

No you won't have to pay anything back if you lose your award

You need to bear in mind tho how long applications are taking to process I know it's a balance when to re apply