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Pip tribunal declined

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penpo
penpo Community member Posts: 59 Listener
Am very confused, after nearly 12 months since applying for pip due to spondylosis of the spine sciatica depression brachioradial pruritus anxiety & a bleeding condition I had my tribunal today. Originally I received 0 points from dwp, including on the MR I received 8 points but they gave me 2 points for stress incontinence 4 points for mobility & 2 points for panic attacks when having  face to face encounters. I have to buy prepared foods as due to either knocking/cutting my hands or forearms I bleed profusely so it is mainly microwave meals. I get 3 hours sleep a night due to the brachioradial pruritus I am on medication for depression & tension headaches, I only do online shopping I hardly drive now as I panic if I get lost & need help. The call lasted 90 minutes where I had to stop as got too anxious my gp sent a letter explaining how my medical & mental health affect me. They say you can only appeal against this decision if a law is broken, can someone advise what that means please.  Thank you

Comments

  • calcotti
    calcotti Community member Posts: 10,010 Disability Gamechanger
    edited May 2023
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    You say you originally got 0 points. I am not clear if you had 8 points after Mandatory Reconsideration or whether 8 points is tribunal decision.

    You cannot appeal a tribunal decision just because you disagree with the tribunal decision. You can only appeal to the upper tribunal if you believe the first tier tribunal have made a mistake in interpreting or applying the law.
    https://www.gov.uk/administrative-appeals-tribunal
    https://www.gov.uk/appeal-benefit-decision/unhappy-tribunals-decision
    Information I post is for England unless otherwise stated. Rules may be different in other parts of UK.
  • penpo
    penpo Community member Posts: 59 Listener
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    I got 0 for assessment & Mr, the tribunal gave me the 8. Thank you for the link 
  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Community member Posts: 57,115 Disability Gamechanger
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    To find the error in law you must first request the Statement of Reasons and Record of Proceedings from HMCTS and you must do this within 1 month of the date of the decision. Once you receive those you'll need to find an expert to take a look to see if they can find that error in law. You can't just appeal because you disagree with the decision. This link will help you find an advice agency local to you. https://advicelocal.uk/

    A letter from your GP isn't the best evidence to send because they don't spend any time with you to know exactly how your conditions affect you.



    I would appreciate it if members wouldn't tag me please. I have all notifcations turned off and wouldn't want a member thinking i'm being rude by not replying.
    If i see a question that i know the answer to i will try my best to help.
  • rebel11
    rebel11 Community member Posts: 1,669 Pioneering
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  • calcotti
    calcotti Community member Posts: 10,010 Disability Gamechanger
    edited May 2023
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    rebel11 said:
    Try to book an appointment with your local CAB Office.

    https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/about-us/contact-us/contact-us/contact-us/
    Dealing with a possible appeal to upper tribunal is likely to be beyond capability of Citizens Advice.
    Information I post is for England unless otherwise stated. Rules may be different in other parts of UK.
  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Community member Posts: 57,115 Disability Gamechanger
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    calcotti said:
    rebel11 said:
    Try to book an appointment with your local CAB Office.

    https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/about-us/contact-us/contact-us/contact-us/
    Dealing with a possible appeal to upper tribunal is unlikely to be beyond capability of Citizens Advice.
    I think that should have been "likely."

    I would appreciate it if members wouldn't tag me please. I have all notifcations turned off and wouldn't want a member thinking i'm being rude by not replying.
    If i see a question that i know the answer to i will try my best to help.
  • penpo
    penpo Community member Posts: 59 Listener
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    Thank you to all of you I am just so shocked that they gave me points for a stress bladder as its not consistent but nothing for the main things that affect me daily. I was given lcwra due to my depression.panic attacks Brachioradial pruritus & the blood/bruising thing. It seems so odd.
  • calcotti
    calcotti Community member Posts: 10,010 Disability Gamechanger
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    calcotti said:
    rebel11 said:
    Try to book an appointment with your local CAB Office.

    https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/about-us/contact-us/contact-us/contact-us/
    Dealing with a possible appeal to upper tribunal is unlikely to be beyond capability of Citizens Advice.
    I think that should have been "likely."

    Thanks, just In time for me to correct!
    Information I post is for England unless otherwise stated. Rules may be different in other parts of UK.
  • nasturtium
    nasturtium Community member Posts: 376 Pioneering
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    Hello Penpo
    Because you do not have an award you can make a new claim but first I would advise you to get help to understand what the activities are and the descriptors based on those activities.
    You need to do all of the activities Reliably "safely, repeatedly, in a timely manor and to an acceptable standard" https://pipinfo.net/issues/reliably The "Reliably" criteria is enshrined in law so it is very important for your to explain in detail on each activity:-
    why it is not safe, why it takes you a long time to complete the activity
    why you cannot do the activity repeatedly
    why  you cannot do the activity to an acceptable standard (pain? discomfort? breathlessness? nausea?)
    Then explain again in detail what descriptor applies to you to complete the activity Relaibly:-
    Do you need an aid?
    Do you need Supervision if yes who supervises you if you do not have supervision but need it then say so?
    Do you need Assistance if yes who provides assistance you if you do not have assistance but need it then say so?
    So let's look at an example of Preparing food:-
    penpo said:
    I have to buy prepared foods as due to either knocking/cutting my hands or forearms I bleed profusely so it is mainly microwave meals.
    So you said that you have to buy prepared food because cutting your hands would mean you bleed alot. There is a safety risk there so you need to explain in detail that there is a significant risk of serious injury manually cutting vegetables. You did not say you had a poor grip so you can hold a knife to cut food manually. You can get chopping machines that would chop vegetables and this would be classed as an aid. Also you you can get metal anti cut cloves that protect your hands from being cut when sclicing and cutting food. These would be classed as an aid. This means these aids would allow you to complete the activity of cutting food (or preapring food) safely and you would score 2 points under the descriptor "b. Needs to use an aid or appliance to be able to either prepare or cook a simple meal. 2 points" https://pipinfo.net/activities/preparing-food
    This is just one example to give you an idea on what PIP is about and what they are looking for. The main thing is you must write a detailed PIP2 Questionnaire explaining in detail what I have mentioned above. If you make a new claim before you start the claim write out the your verbal evidence in detail so you have the claim ready BEFORE you make the claim. It will give you time to gather all of your evidence and for your to understand the activities and the descriptors and to match them to your limitations and restrictions.
    I wrote a detailed reply explaining what to put into a MR Letter here https://forum.scope.org.uk/discussion/comment/680205/#Comment_680205 the infor mation would also apply to a new claim and the PIP2 Questionnaire form.
    Citizens advice has a link that explains in detail what is required on the PIP2 Questionnaire form https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/benefits/sick-or-disabled-people-and-carers/pip/help-with-your-claim/fill-in-form-pip/
    The key things you need to do in my opinion for a successful claim is the following:-
    1.) Before you make your claim do your reseach on the activities and the descriptors.
    2.) Before you make your claim gather any medical evidence, supporting letters or write a disability/mental health diary. This will also help you to fill in the form with accurate verbal evidence and you can use the diary as supporting evidence to show your daily struggles, problems and how your condition impacts your daily living activities.
    3.) Remember the very important word RELIABLY I explained about above.
    4.) Make sure you stick to the descriptors. Include real world events that have happened to you recently when doing the activities. Expalin what happened, who witnessed it and what were the consequences.
    Those are the main points to think about.
    Hope that helps.
    Nasturtium
    How to challenge a PIP award that has been reduced at Review https://forum.scope.org.uk/discussion/comment/696285#Comment_696285
  • penpo
    penpo Community member Posts: 59 Listener
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    That was very interesting thank you. I did tell the hearing I use an electric chopper, I also explained using a knife or peeler if caught on my skin does either bleed profusely of bruising she advised using plastic knifes etc I don't think she fully understood it is very har to explain this bleeding thing sometimes I don't even know I am cut till I see blood,  one thing can you tell me why they asked if I get lcwra?  I tried to tell her I did but they stopped it to give to my partner so I could then get carers element with universal credit, but the lady cut in after. I said ' i did but' so she never let me finish .  My benefit rep has requested a statement of reasons.  They weren't interested in my panic attacks where I cannot face to face interaction and have to get home urgently but gave me 2 points stating I need prompting to interact ????  I get 3 hours sleep at night due to the brachioradial pruritus so am tired constantly again not interesred ??? All this hearing has done has increased my depression.
  • nasturtium
    nasturtium Community member Posts: 376 Pioneering
    edited May 2023
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    Hello Penpo
    Just to confirm that you got 4 points for daily living and 4 points for mobility at tribunal?
    If that is the case then you do not have an award and you are back at the bottom of the ladder which maybe in your opinion a bad thing but infact it might be a good thing in disguise. As the saying goes "Every dark cloud has a silver lining"
    Why is it a good thing? No award means you are not tied to an award that is not representative to your needs and it means you can start a new claim but before you dash off and start the new claim please take time and understand why you did not get an award with your first claim.
    My advice is to wait for the statement of reason because that can be a gold mine of information on why your failed there is normally indications on what not to include on your next claim because using the same Personal Verbal evidence everytime on new claims that have been unsuccessfull only results in another failed claim. What you need to do it to include the Personal Verbal detailed written evidence on your PIP2 Questionnaire form and not at the telephone assessment because then it is in black and white ink and your evidence that you have these problems and you need the help (according to the descriptors).
    Because you are at the bottom of the wooden ladder what I would do personally is to break up the old wooden ladder and get a brand new ladder that will be stronger but do not buy the wooden ladder from a shop build it yourself with knowledge and tools that you have learnt. (a metaphor for a new strong claim)
    So instead of allowing this bad experience make your depression worse use it as a learning curve to make you stronger knowing that the knowledge is out there and there is help if you need it.
    You can do this but it will take time.
    Take care Penpo and dont feel as though all is lost because it is not it is only just begining :)
    Nasturtium  

    How to challenge a PIP award that has been reduced at Review https://forum.scope.org.uk/discussion/comment/696285#Comment_696285
  • penpo
    penpo Community member Posts: 59 Listener
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    Hopefully I will get the statement transcript soon. I am still confused as to why they asked re lcwra & didn't let me finish explaining???
  • rebel11
    rebel11 Community member Posts: 1,669 Pioneering
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    calcotti said:
    rebel11 said:
    Try to book an appointment with your local CAB Office.

    https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/about-us/contact-us/contact-us/contact-us/
    Dealing with a possible appeal to upper tribunal is likely to be beyond capability of Citizens Advice.
    https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/benefits/sick-or-disabled-people-and-carers/pip/appeals/your-hearing/

    You’ll be sent a guide with an official notice that explains your options. Sometimes it’s possible to appeal to a higher level of tribunal, called the Upper Tribunal, if you think your tribunal made a mistake in law, but you can’t appeal just because you disagree with the result.

    If you’re thinking about challenging the decision, get advice from your local Citizens Advice in England and Wales or in Scotland to check if you have grounds to appeal again.

  • penpo
    penpo Community member Posts: 59 Listener
    Options
    Hi calcotti. Thank you yes I understand re difficult to question the appeals decision, as said my benefit rep has already requested transcript statement to see if amisfake in law has been made. I am just curious to know why they referred to if I receive LCWRA ???
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