Train drivers....

Wibbles

Train drivers are going on strike on Saturday to hit the FACup final etc
They are paid an average of £55k and want more!! 
They do nothing in their job, that your average school leaver couldn't do, they press a button to move the train 
What should be done about the situation? 

bg844

I think they’re very greedy, £55k isn’t something to be snubbed at!

rustledjimm

If their job is so vital then why shouldn't they be paid appropriately?

I feel like in this country we so often focus on people who are less well off trying to make their situation better and not on the extremely wealthy who merely inherit their wealth and actually sit down and do nothing all day.

Driving a train you are responsible for potentially hundreds of lives in a fast-moving vehicle.

Nearly everyone here has far more in common with a train driver on £55k than they do with a billionaire who dodges their tax via tax havens. We should support all workers on getting better wages instead of trying some form of "I have it worse" competition that only divides us and benefits those who want us distracted from the poverty they help cause.

WelshBlue

Wibbles said:

What should be done about the situation? 

They're free to look for jobs that will pay them the wage they want. 

But won't because they're on a good whack for what they do.  Responsibility or not. 
Are they really worth that much more wage wise than any of the emergency services ?  Two of which hold lives literally in their hands every day and not just pressing buttons

Too many past governments have capitulated and given railway workers that sense of entitlement.
Modernisation and streamlining is the only way the networks will survive ... the unions won't have that, they'd rather hold the country to ransom to maintain an outdated service

JMO

rustledjimm

Why must the option be between railway workers and emergency services?

They should both be paid more, the emergency services 100% deserve far, far higher wages.

I don't understand this zero-sum game thinking. There are corporations skimming billions from us collectively but we're trying to focus on a group of people doing a vital job? This divide is exactly what they want to cause. From what I can see railway workers are asking for a 7% rise, below inflation even! They're just trying to keep their salary roughly in line with what they earned last year.

Yet while supermarkets, oil and power companies are all showing record profits during this year of massive inflation we're being told it's the workers who are at fault for wanting to earn the same as they did last year.

WelshBlue

A pay rise is all well and good - no problems with that.  
It's the extra demands that cause the issue for me with all railway workers.
No compulsory redundancies, free travel for family members, improved pensions etc.

Why should the public pay through the nose for their tickets, sometimes not really being able to afford them,  when others are going free just because a family member works on the railways ?

But it's all opinions thankfully we're still allowed them

rustledjimm

Being that it's a negotiation they're usually expecting to get less than they demand.

It's like when you haggle, if you're buying you start lower than you expect as you expect to go up a bit, or if you're selling you start higher as you expect to be pushed down a bit.

Personally I am all for much cheaper rail travel, a lot of private companies are profiting off our extremely expensive rail network. The most expensive in Europe. No surprise we're one of the few countries with heavy privatisation of our network.

Privatise the profits, socialise the costs. It's the way the UK has been run since the 80s, and it's cost the public so much.

WelshBlue

@rustledjimm ... I will concede to your points there

Privitisation ... of all utilities etc means we're all bent over a barrel in one way or another.  
The great UK dream.  Fine for them who have, not so great for the have nots

... then again, not sure I'd trust any current MP's of any side to organise a party in a brewery let alone keep us on the move/ in light, with heat ... and water to drink

Wibbles

Slightly Linked to this 

Why was the FA cup final not held in Manchester or say Liverpool (to avoid favouratism) rather than Wembley - because there's going to be havoc on the roads today with no trains.....

I mean - almost 100,000 people (50,000 cars) - there's bound to be a lot of disappointed fans - who don't even make it due to delays and accidents.

Wibbles

WelshBlue said:

A pay rise is all well and good - no problems with that.  
It's the extra demands that cause the issue for me with all railway workers.
No compulsory redundancies, free travel for family members, improved pensions etc.

Why should the public pay through the nose for their tickets, sometimes not really being able to afford them,  when others are going free just because a family member works on the railways ?

But it's all opinions thankfully we're still allowed them

Don't forget their demands for no changes to working practices/terms and conditions of employment.

rustledjimm

I believe the reason it was held in Wembley is tradition.

That said I'm afraid my concern for people visiting a football game is on a very low rung on my ladder of concerns.

I'm more concerned about people whose only mode of commuting or travelling to medical appts. etc. is via trains.

woodbine

The disputes are not all about pay far more than that, however with inflation at 30 years high then people want more money simple as that really and I hope they continue to strike until they get it, and I include NHS staff in that as well.
Since the railways were privatised they have just gotten worse, four of them so bad that the govt. has had to re-nationalise them again.
We are all now paying the price for Tory austerity hopefully we will now have learnt the lesson and vote anything but Tory in 2024.

rustledjimm

Indeed, the payrise they are asking for is less than inflation even at this point.

Also I do agree that not all of their demands are good. The industry does need to change, from what I can read their concerns about removing staff from platforms or other areas is because there are not yet sufficient practices or technology put into place to cover it.

I can't confirm whether that is true or not but if it is true it's a concern and if it's not true then a touch of shame on them for lying about that. But it doesn't change that inflation is incredibly high and those who are not at least millionaires have had a worse time the past whole decade.

Wibbles

EffinMuppet said:

I'm going to take the middle ground here - I think train drivers (not sure about ALL rail workers!) do a very difficult job; I think they're job may be like air traffic control workers in that they're only allowed to work so many hours a week because it's deemed so stressful and they have to be fresh to concentrate (I may be wrong!), and they have to deal with suicides on the track, the grumpy public and we'd go mad if they made a mistake at work and killed people. I think their wages are fair and they earn what they get. That said, in changing times ALL areas of work have to reform, some jobs (sadly) just DO become obsolete - you can't expect people to run a company in an archaic, unproductive, cost inducing and inefficient way because you don't want to change any of it. I grew up with the miners' strike - who would have known then that we'd now be trying to ban fossil fuels altogether?! I really feel for anyone who's job might be on the line but most of these organisations should be able to try to find their workers alternative roles within the system. We all sometimes have to re invent ourselves and go with the flow - AND I'M AN AUTISTIC PERSON!!! Even I realise it's just not realistic to expect everything to stay the same or how you want it forever. It'd be nice, but it's never going to happen. Progress can be cruel and no one's business is a charity. (But I don't have sympathy with the operators either because the train services are rubbish!). And no one wants less or different hours, but if they can manage on it then maybe just don't be too greedy - everyone's struggling. And if they CAN'T manage on it then that's where the Unions need to step in and make sure workers whose jobs change don't lose out or they get compensated. 
I agree that there are alot of rich people getting away with murder but I don't think that's going to change if the rich people getting away with murder are making the rules because turkeys don't vote for Christmas. And I say that about ALL politicians of every creed, but also other rich folk and system-dodgers. But as we cannot change it I think the general population just has to be less demanding (if it can) of what there is when the resources aren't being given out. I agree with nurses getting more pay but I don't agree with sick people dying and car parks full of ambulances to make the point. Whenever these spats occur only the public lose out - politicians couldn't care less if there's no train because they can pay for something else on expenses and they don't have to queue in a hospital corridor if they've got private medical insurance. I think the strikes are pointless. Yes, you can stir up public feeling and have us all rioting on the streets but nobody cares what we think anyway, they'll just shut the door of number ten, put policemen outside and say 'Very snug!'. As the general population it seems we can only rely on each other, not those in charge, so I think it's up to every one of us to only take what we need although any 'spare' is likely to go in the pockets of those who don't need it so I think we've become reliant on charities, funded by philanthropic kind people in the public space, to sort everything now. Food banks, neighbours, hoping your bank understands, pro bono lawyers, a local business - it's kind of ended up a 'sort it out yourself' society, so we all need to be kinder, less greedy, more generous, more flexible, more understanding, more HUMANE. And that sometimes means not having everything you want so that someone worse off can get what they need. Which might be as simple as a train to get to their minimum wage job.

The train drivers job is not hard - it is a very responsible job but then many jobs are.

It is the union demands that really get my goat

woodbine said:

The disputes are not all about pay far more than that, however with inflation at 30 years high then people want more money simple as that really and I hope they continue to strike until they get it, and I include NHS staff in that as well.
Since the railways were privatised they have just gotten worse, four of them so bad that the govt. has had to re-nationalise them again.
We are all now paying the price for Tory austerity hopefully we will now have learnt the lesson and vote anything but Tory in 2024.

So - anyone demanding more pay and holding the country to ransom because they claim that there jobs are indespensible are entitled to more pay ?

Train Drivers jobs are fairly responsible - but trains are fitted with fail safe devices to shut them off should something go wrong. As are airliners - which can land themselves without human intervention....

What about Police, Fire, Ambulance, Doctors, Nurses, Army, Navy, RAF etc etc - it just goes on and on - there is only a limited amount of money available and when all of these vital services, receive what they demand - inflation increases which leaves the rest of us worse off - so the whole things starts again... the next year more groups decide that they are vital (taxi drivers etc) - at some point, it has to stop or the country will be broke with hyper inflation - like Germany pre-WW2....

woodbine

Wibbles said:

EffinMuppet said:

I'm going to take the middle ground here - I think train drivers (not sure about ALL rail workers!) do a very difficult job; I think they're job may be like air traffic control workers in that they're only allowed to work so many hours a week because it's deemed so stressful and they have to be fresh to concentrate (I may be wrong!), and they have to deal with suicides on the track, the grumpy public and we'd go mad if they made a mistake at work and killed people. I think their wages are fair and they earn what they get. That said, in changing times ALL areas of work have to reform, some jobs (sadly) just DO become obsolete - you can't expect people to run a company in an archaic, unproductive, cost inducing and inefficient way because you don't want to change any of it. I grew up with the miners' strike - who would have known then that we'd now be trying to ban fossil fuels altogether?! I really feel for anyone who's job might be on the line but most of these organisations should be able to try to find their workers alternative roles within the system. We all sometimes have to re invent ourselves and go with the flow - AND I'M AN AUTISTIC PERSON!!! Even I realise it's just not realistic to expect everything to stay the same or how you want it forever. It'd be nice, but it's never going to happen. Progress can be cruel and no one's business is a charity. (But I don't have sympathy with the operators either because the train services are rubbish!). And no one wants less or different hours, but if they can manage on it then maybe just don't be too greedy - everyone's struggling. And if they CAN'T manage on it then that's where the Unions need to step in and make sure workers whose jobs change don't lose out or they get compensated. 
I agree that there are alot of rich people getting away with murder but I don't think that's going to change if the rich people getting away with murder are making the rules because turkeys don't vote for Christmas. And I say that about ALL politicians of every creed, but also other rich folk and system-dodgers. But as we cannot change it I think the general population just has to be less demanding (if it can) of what there is when the resources aren't being given out. I agree with nurses getting more pay but I don't agree with sick people dying and car parks full of ambulances to make the point. Whenever these spats occur only the public lose out - politicians couldn't care less if there's no train because they can pay for something else on expenses and they don't have to queue in a hospital corridor if they've got private medical insurance. I think the strikes are pointless. Yes, you can stir up public feeling and have us all rioting on the streets but nobody cares what we think anyway, they'll just shut the door of number ten, put policemen outside and say 'Very snug!'. As the general population it seems we can only rely on each other, not those in charge, so I think it's up to every one of us to only take what we need although any 'spare' is likely to go in the pockets of those who don't need it so I think we've become reliant on charities, funded by philanthropic kind people in the public space, to sort everything now. Food banks, neighbours, hoping your bank understands, pro bono lawyers, a local business - it's kind of ended up a 'sort it out yourself' society, so we all need to be kinder, less greedy, more generous, more flexible, more understanding, more HUMANE. And that sometimes means not having everything you want so that someone worse off can get what they need. Which might be as simple as a train to get to their minimum wage job.

The train drivers job is not hard - it is a very responsible job but then many jobs are.

It is the union demands that really get my goat

woodbine said:

The disputes are not all about pay far more than that, however with inflation at 30 years high then people want more money simple as that really and I hope they continue to strike until they get it, and I include NHS staff in that as well.
Since the railways were privatised they have just gotten worse, four of them so bad that the govt. has had to re-nationalise them again.
We are all now paying the price for Tory austerity hopefully we will now have learnt the lesson and vote anything but Tory in 2024.

So - anyone demanding more pay and holding the country to ransom because they claim that there jobs are indespensible are entitled to more pay ?

What about Police, Fire, Ambulance, Doctors, Nurses, Army, Navy, RAF etc etc - it just goes on and on - there is only a limited amount of money available and when all of these vital services, receive what they demand - inflation increases which leaves the rest of us worse off - so the whole things starts again... the next year more groups decide that they are vital (taxi drivers etc) - at some point, it has to stop or the country will be broke with hyper inflation - like Germany pre-WW2....

The point about next year is that inflation is expected to be around 3-4%, as for the current year when the govt. decided to protect jobs via the furlough scheme they found hundreds of millions to do it and it has to be said that public sector pay DOES NOT increase inflation how could it? As for Germany inflation there in the early 30's was triple digit a lilt like Argentina now where inflation is 100%.
One final point the rail strikes have in a year cost the economy £5 billion far far more than settling the dispute would have cost.

Wibbles

woodbine said:

Wibbles said:

EffinMuppet said:

I'm going to take the middle ground here - I think train drivers (not sure about ALL rail workers!) do a very difficult job; I think they're job may be like air traffic control workers in that they're only allowed to work so many hours a week because it's deemed so stressful and they have to be fresh to concentrate (I may be wrong!), and they have to deal with suicides on the track, the grumpy public and we'd go mad if they made a mistake at work and killed people. I think their wages are fair and they earn what they get. That said, in changing times ALL areas of work have to reform, some jobs (sadly) just DO become obsolete - you can't expect people to run a company in an archaic, unproductive, cost inducing and inefficient way because you don't want to change any of it. I grew up with the miners' strike - who would have known then that we'd now be trying to ban fossil fuels altogether?! I really feel for anyone who's job might be on the line but most of these organisations should be able to try to find their workers alternative roles within the system. We all sometimes have to re invent ourselves and go with the flow - AND I'M AN AUTISTIC PERSON!!! Even I realise it's just not realistic to expect everything to stay the same or how you want it forever. It'd be nice, but it's never going to happen. Progress can be cruel and no one's business is a charity. (But I don't have sympathy with the operators either because the train services are rubbish!). And no one wants less or different hours, but if they can manage on it then maybe just don't be too greedy - everyone's struggling. And if they CAN'T manage on it then that's where the Unions need to step in and make sure workers whose jobs change don't lose out or they get compensated. 
I agree that there are alot of rich people getting away with murder but I don't think that's going to change if the rich people getting away with murder are making the rules because turkeys don't vote for Christmas. And I say that about ALL politicians of every creed, but also other rich folk and system-dodgers. But as we cannot change it I think the general population just has to be less demanding (if it can) of what there is when the resources aren't being given out. I agree with nurses getting more pay but I don't agree with sick people dying and car parks full of ambulances to make the point. Whenever these spats occur only the public lose out - politicians couldn't care less if there's no train because they can pay for something else on expenses and they don't have to queue in a hospital corridor if they've got private medical insurance. I think the strikes are pointless. Yes, you can stir up public feeling and have us all rioting on the streets but nobody cares what we think anyway, they'll just shut the door of number ten, put policemen outside and say 'Very snug!'. As the general population it seems we can only rely on each other, not those in charge, so I think it's up to every one of us to only take what we need although any 'spare' is likely to go in the pockets of those who don't need it so I think we've become reliant on charities, funded by philanthropic kind people in the public space, to sort everything now. Food banks, neighbours, hoping your bank understands, pro bono lawyers, a local business - it's kind of ended up a 'sort it out yourself' society, so we all need to be kinder, less greedy, more generous, more flexible, more understanding, more HUMANE. And that sometimes means not having everything you want so that someone worse off can get what they need. Which might be as simple as a train to get to their minimum wage job.

The train drivers job is not hard - it is a very responsible job but then many jobs are.

It is the union demands that really get my goat

woodbine said:

The disputes are not all about pay far more than that, however with inflation at 30 years high then people want more money simple as that really and I hope they continue to strike until they get it, and I include NHS staff in that as well.
Since the railways were privatised they have just gotten worse, four of them so bad that the govt. has had to re-nationalise them again.
We are all now paying the price for Tory austerity hopefully we will now have learnt the lesson and vote anything but Tory in 2024.

So - anyone demanding more pay and holding the country to ransom because they claim that there jobs are indespensible are entitled to more pay ?

What about Police, Fire, Ambulance, Doctors, Nurses, Army, Navy, RAF etc etc - it just goes on and on - there is only a limited amount of money available and when all of these vital services, receive what they demand - inflation increases which leaves the rest of us worse off - so the whole things starts again... the next year more groups decide that they are vital (taxi drivers etc) - at some point, it has to stop or the country will be broke with hyper inflation - like Germany pre-WW2....

The point about next year is that inflation is expected to be around 3-4%, as for the current year when the govt. decided to protect jobs via the furlough scheme they found hundreds of millions to do it and it has to be said that public sector pay DOES NOT increase inflation how could it? As for Germany inflation there in the early 30's was triple digit a lilt like Argentina now where inflation is 100%.
One final point the rail strikes have in a year cost the economy £5 billion far far more than settling the dispute would have cost.

Inflation will NOT drop to 3-4% for years yet... Unless the figures are fudged and huge unaffordable payrises DO affect inflation because they make everyone want more which costs more and has to come from somewhere 
[Removed by moderator - offensive content]

rustledjimm

Can I just first of all say that referring to someone as "Adolf" is incredibly unbecoming of you and you should be ashamed of resorting to that kind of argument.

Life is not a zero-sum game, and there is enough money going around to properly pay all those professions you called out. However the incredibly rich take a massively disproportionate amount. While the economy has grown in the past 10 years only the income of the most wealthy have increased.

More money around than 10 years ago but nearly all of it went to a very small and already wealthy section of society. There is enough money going around.

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