Universal Income Trial

rebel11

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/jun/04/universal-basic-income-of-1600-pounds-a-month-to-be-trialled-in-england

rebel11

Yes, just a Trial, but it will take away the daily anxiety and stress levels people feel.
No doubt people's well-being will improve. 

Wibbles

Is the UBI designed to replace all income or is it in addition to any private pensions etc ?

rebel11

Wibbles said:

Is the UBI designed to replace all income or is it in addition to any private pensions etc ?

It won't replace private pensions.

2oldcodgers

Whilst I can agree with you all as regards the social reasoning I doubt that it will give those who can work but won't/don't who are healthy and well. 
If I was claiming to be unemployed on UC and someone offered me nearly £400 a week with no strings attached I would jump at the chance. I cannot see those being handed a golden opportunity to find meaningful work.

michael57

stormy said:

2oldcodgers said:

Whilst I can agree with you all as regards the social reasoning I doubt that it will give those who can work but won't/don't who are healthy and well. 
If I was claiming to be unemployed on UC and someone offered me nearly £400 a week with no strings attached I would jump at the chance. I cannot see those being handed a golden opportunity to find meaningful work.

Frankly I think it would be doing everyone a favour if only those who wanted to work did- Im so sick of people blagging instead of doing their jobs! Maybe the blaggers would just stay out of work given the choice- and people who want to do a good job would replace them.

But onother way to look at it is the people who were to think £400 per week is ok to live on that will push the wages up on those who do want to work hence raising the cost of living up even more making £400  per week seem a very little amount people claiming poor people working richer never ending circle 

rebel11

2oldcodgers said:

Whilst I can agree with you all as regards the social reasoning I doubt that it will give those who can work but won't/don't who are healthy and well. 
If I was claiming to be unemployed on UC and someone offered me nearly £400 a week with no strings attached I would jump at the chance. I cannot see those being handed a golden opportunity to find meaningful work.

O.K. I'll give it a hypothetical context, AI and robots are going to take over millions of jobs, it's going to happen, even the jobs of the future that the Government and opposition are talking about will / could be done by AI and robots. So what will happen when there are huge numbers of people who can't get jobs? simply because they won't exist.   

michael57

rebel11 said:

2oldcodgers said:

Whilst I can agree with you all as regards the social reasoning I doubt that it will give those who can work but won't/don't who are healthy and well. 
If I was claiming to be unemployed on UC and someone offered me nearly £400 a week with no strings attached I would jump at the chance. I cannot see those being handed a golden opportunity to find meaningful work.

O.K. I'll give it a hypothetical context, AI and robots are going to take over millions of jobs, it's going to happen, even the jobs of the future that the Government and opposition are talking about will / could be done by AI and robots. So what will happen when there are huge numbers of people who can't get jobs? simply because they won't exist.   

Ah then arnie and his robot mates will kill all the humans because they wont need us job done 

rebel11

michael57 said:

rebel11 said:

2oldcodgers said:

Whilst I can agree with you all as regards the social reasoning I doubt that it will give those who can work but won't/don't who are healthy and well. 
If I was claiming to be unemployed on UC and someone offered me nearly £400 a week with no strings attached I would jump at the chance. I cannot see those being handed a golden opportunity to find meaningful work.

O.K. I'll give it a hypothetical context, AI and robots are going to take over millions of jobs, it's going to happen, even the jobs of the future that the Government and opposition are talking about will / could be done by AI and robots. So what will happen when there are huge numbers of people who can't get jobs? simply because they won't exist.   

Ah then arnie and his robot mates will kill all the humans because they wont need us job done 

Well, it just takes a 'rouge nation' to create the wrong type of AI / robots with bad intentions, that will happen too. Just look at the 'rouge nations' in the world today.  

michael57

rebel11 said:

2oldcodgers said:

Whilst I can agree with you all as regards the social reasoning I doubt that it will give those who can work but won't/don't who are healthy and well. 
If I was claiming to be unemployed on UC and someone offered me nearly £400 a week with no strings attached I would jump at the chance. I cannot see those being handed a golden opportunity to find meaningful work.

O.K. I'll give it a hypothetical context, AI and robots are going to take over millions of jobs, it's going to happen, even the jobs of the future that the Government and opposition are talking about will / could be done by AI and robots. So what will happen when there are huge numbers of people who can't get jobs? simply because they won't exist.   

Ah then arnie and his robot mates will kill all the humans because they wont need us job done 

michael57

rebel11 said:

2oldcodgers said:

Whilst I can agree with you all as regards the social reasoning I doubt that it will give those who can work but won't/don't who are healthy and well. 
If I was claiming to be unemployed on UC and someone offered me nearly £400 a week with no strings attached I would jump at the chance. I cannot see those being handed a golden opportunity to find meaningful work.

O.K. I'll give it a hypothetical context, AI and robots are going to take over millions of jobs, it's going to happen, even the jobs of the future that the Government and opposition are talking about will / could be done by AI and robots. So what will happen when there are huge numbers of people who can't get jobs? simply because they won't exist.   

Ah then arnie and his robot mates will kill all the humans because they wont need us job done 

rebel11

I'm not sure why you've posted the same post three times.

WelshBlue

My understanding of the trial in Wales is that income tax will be paid on the £19,200 Basic Income for 500 Care leavers ... the article doesn't say if tax will be paid on the English trial 

Taking tax, rent, c. tax, utilities into account  ... £400 is a lot on one hand, but not a lot on the other

rebel11

WelshBlue said:

My understanding of the trial in Wales is that income tax will be paid on the £19,200 Basic Income for 500 Care leavers ... the article doesn't say if tax will be paid on the English trial 

Taking tax, rent, c. tax, utilities into account  ... £400 is a lot on one hand, but not a lot on the other

What ever the amount, it needs to be an amount that people can actually live on.

michael57

rebel11 said:

I'm not sure why you've posted the same post three times.

please accept my apologies i am rather sight impaired since my strokes 

2oldcodgers

rebel11 said:

What ever the amount, it needs to be an amount that people can actually live on.

So perpetuating the age old argument. Why bother working when you can get enough free money at a level that provides for a decent way of life and with no strings attached from the DWP?

DataMat

The benefit system back in the 1960s, through to the 1990s was far less conditional than it would become in 2000s onwards. Conditionality I don't think makes hardly any difference, except it accentuates suffering for those who cannot work for reasons of ill health, mental or physical. Employers will more frequently shun these applicants anyway and the whole process of dealing with the DWP is enough to send one into a spinning wheel of no end. The original intention was noble with Labour's New Deal but it was horribly twisted for political purposes. 

The best thing about UBI is its not conditional and it's always there to keep us from losing the basic ability to eat and have shelter and ability to still function in society. 

Can anyone really give a real genuine reason why we really still need those job centres? Why are they even still there? Where are the job boards? Where are computer search machines? Yes there are computers and that but I bet time limited and the staff in them don't really seem to be that welcoming unless you are there for a specific appointment. Job centres back in the day could be used with no questions asked, it was a public place and people were welcomed to come and go as they please but now its all appointment only and you are very plainly told to go 'online', all UC is now 'online'. So why not just take the natural next step get rid of the physical community job centres and have the whole thing online?

The only reason for job centres are they are used as an instrument of discipline. You are made to feel like a naughty girl or boy and have to have a quick 10 minute chat every week just to repeat the same things essentially. And the offices being open plan is utterly wrong. How to solve this overnight, make all appointments on a phone therefore confidentiality can be maintained. Sometimes people have to go in physically for ID and I get that but that is not going be a huge amount of people all the time.

UBI is criticized by those mostly who have made it and did work hard in many cases. But its a basic fact that you can work as hard as you want but still not make it and be held on the rocks and in trouble. As others said, AI is going to take away the very jobs that people who struggle to get long term employment and are low skilled as a definition. Low skilled doesn't mean low-quality. Low skilled workers are some of the most hard working people you'll meet in many cases and are often from very tough backgrounds.

Cher_Alumni

If you're like me and can't profess to know much about the concept of a Universal Basic Income, this website by the UBI Lab is insightful. 

Interesting convo so far, and your point about job centres being a space of discipline absolutely resounded with me @DataMat

rebel11

2oldcodgers said:

rebel11 said:

What ever the amount, it needs to be an amount that people can actually live on.

So perpetuating the age old argument. Why bother working when you can get enough free money at a level that provides for a decent way of life and with no strings attached from the DWP?

If you like, the 'polar' opposite of austerity, where people are actually looked after, not have to go through the DWP's benefits 'assault course', where you have to jump through 'hoops', if you fall there is another 'hoop' and so on. 

When the country hit's the 'buffers', the governments number one thought is to attack the 'vulnerable', because they are perceived as having no benefit for society. They don't aid GDP, they don't contribute etc.

Note they don't hit the millionaires, the billionaires etc.

rebel11

DataMat said:

The benefit system back in the 1960s, through to the 1990s was far less conditional than it would become in 2000s onwards. Conditionality I don't think makes hardly any difference, except it accentuates suffering for those who cannot work for reasons of ill health, mental or physical. Employers will more frequently shun these applicants anyway and the whole process of dealing with the DWP is enough to send one into a spinning wheel of no end. The original intention was noble with Labour's New Deal but it was horribly twisted for political purposes. 

The best thing about UBI is its not conditional and it's always there to keep us from losing the basic ability to eat and have shelter and ability to still function in society. 

Can anyone really give a real genuine reason why we really still need those job centres? Why are they even still there? Where are the job boards? Where are computer search machines? Yes there are computers and that but I bet time limited and the staff in them don't really seem to be that welcoming unless you are there for a specific appointment. Job centres back in the day could be used with no questions asked, it was a public place and people were welcomed to come and go as they please but now its all appointment only and you are very plainly told to go 'online', all UC is now 'online'. So why not just take the natural next step get rid of the physical community job centres and have the whole thing online?

The only reason for job centres are they are used as an instrument of discipline. You are made to feel like a naughty girl or boy and have to have a quick 10 minute chat every week just to repeat the same things essentially. And the offices being open plan is utterly wrong. How to solve this overnight, make all appointments on a phone therefore confidentiality can be maintained. Sometimes people have to go in physically for ID and I get that but that is not going be a huge amount of people all the time.

UBI is criticized by those mostly who have made it and did work hard in many cases. But its a basic fact that you can work as hard as you want but still not make it and be held on the rocks and in trouble. As others said, AI is going to take away the very jobs that people who struggle to get long term employment and are low skilled as a definition. Low skilled doesn't mean low-quality. Low skilled workers are some of the most hard working people you'll meet in many cases and are often from very tough backgrounds.

Yes, agree, good post. 

rebel11

Cher_Scope said:

If you're like me and can't profess to know much about the concept of a Universal Basic Income, this website by the UBI Lab is insightful. 

Interesting convo so far, and your point about job centres being a space of discipline absolutely resounded with me @DataMat

AI, Robots etc can potentially take over a lot of jobs, think of bus drivers, fully automated buses, will bus drivers be needed? I don't think so. That's just one example, there won't be enough jobs simply because technology will be taking over many, many jobs.