Social Anxiety - PIP - engaging with others

bluefox

I'm trying to help a friend with their review and thinking about my own award. I was diagnosed with social anxiety but was only given 2 points for prompting. Maybe I didn't explain the distress it causes but wouldn't they just evidence that you can talk to another person with encouragement? Despite the fact you have palpitations, feel breathless, nervous etc.

How do you score more points for this activity?

OverlyAnxious

Feeling breathless & nervous doesn't really matter for PIP, as long as you can complete the task reliably, safely and as often as you need to.  (They aren't interested in a bit of discomfort).  But, for example, if the palpitations were so severe that you'd pass out in a social situation, that would no longer be safe.  Equally, if you physically can't speak in a social situation, or can only manage one word answers, that would not be considered reliable.

I haven't managed face to face engagement with any other person in the last 2 years, so would have been very surprised if I hadn't scored the full points in this descriptor this time around lol.

bluefox

OverlyAnxious said:

Feeling breathless & nervous doesn't really matter for PIP, as long as you can complete the task reliably, safely and as often as you need to.  (They aren't interested in a bit of discomfort).  But, for example, if the palpitations were so severe that you'd pass out in a social situation, that would no longer be safe.  Equally, if you physically can't speak in a social situation, or can only manage one word answers, that would not be considered reliable.

I haven't managed face to face engagement with any other person in the last 2 years, so would have been very surprised if I hadn't scored the full points in this descriptor this time around lol.

What about social engagement with those outside of your family. Is this about new relationships or old ones as well. 

What if there’s a risk of a seizure in front of a stranger or severe panic attacks. 

OverlyAnxious

bluefox said:

OverlyAnxious said:

Feeling breathless & nervous doesn't really matter for PIP, as long as you can complete the task reliably, safely and as often as you need to.  (They aren't interested in a bit of discomfort).  But, for example, if the palpitations were so severe that you'd pass out in a social situation, that would no longer be safe.  Equally, if you physically can't speak in a social situation, or can only manage one word answers, that would not be considered reliable.

I haven't managed face to face engagement with any other person in the last 2 years, so would have been very surprised if I hadn't scored the full points in this descriptor this time around lol.

What about social engagement with those outside of your family. Is this about new relationships or old ones as well. 

What if there’s a risk of a seizure in front of a stranger or severe panic attacks. 

It's about all engagement, works on the same 'majority of the time' rule as the other descriptors.  Chances are you're probably meeting people you know more often than strangers.

Risk of seizure will depend on how great that risk is.  How often has it happened in this situation in the past 12 months for example?

Severity of a panic attack is difficult to gauge.  They will want to know how you handle that situation.  Can you still manage to function through a panic attack, keeping yourself & others safe, until it passes?  Or do you end up completely unable to manage, totally reliant on another person to get you home?  

Obviously a lot of this is down to the decision makers discretion, there's no simple answer to scoring more points here.

bluefox

OverlyAnxious said:

bluefox said:

OverlyAnxious said:

Feeling breathless & nervous doesn't really matter for PIP, as long as you can complete the task reliably, safely and as often as you need to.  (They aren't interested in a bit of discomfort).  But, for example, if the palpitations were so severe that you'd pass out in a social situation, that would no longer be safe.  Equally, if you physically can't speak in a social situation, or can only manage one word answers, that would not be considered reliable.

I haven't managed face to face engagement with any other person in the last 2 years, so would have been very surprised if I hadn't scored the full points in this descriptor this time around lol.

What about social engagement with those outside of your family. Is this about new relationships or old ones as well. 

What if there’s a risk of a seizure in front of a stranger or severe panic attacks. 

It's about all engagement, works on the same 'majority of the time' rule as the other descriptors.  Chances are you're probably meeting people you know more often than strangers.

Risk of seizure will depend on how great that risk is.  How often has it happened in this situation in the past 12 months for example?

Severity of a panic attack is difficult to gauge.  They will want to know how you handle that situation.  Can you still manage to function through a panic attack, keeping yourself & others safe, until it passes?  Or do you end up completely unable to manage, totally reliant on another person to get you home?  

Obviously a lot of this is down to the decision makers discretion, there's no simple answer to scoring more points here.

Thanks, @OverlyAnxious

and what about speaking to medical professionals. You kind of have to if you want treatment for some of these problems. 

OverlyAnxious

bluefox said:

OverlyAnxious said:

bluefox said:

OverlyAnxious said:

Feeling breathless & nervous doesn't really matter for PIP, as long as you can complete the task reliably, safely and as often as you need to.  (They aren't interested in a bit of discomfort).  But, for example, if the palpitations were so severe that you'd pass out in a social situation, that would no longer be safe.  Equally, if you physically can't speak in a social situation, or can only manage one word answers, that would not be considered reliable.

I haven't managed face to face engagement with any other person in the last 2 years, so would have been very surprised if I hadn't scored the full points in this descriptor this time around lol.

What about social engagement with those outside of your family. Is this about new relationships or old ones as well. 

What if there’s a risk of a seizure in front of a stranger or severe panic attacks. 

It's about all engagement, works on the same 'majority of the time' rule as the other descriptors.  Chances are you're probably meeting people you know more often than strangers.

Risk of seizure will depend on how great that risk is.  How often has it happened in this situation in the past 12 months for example?

Severity of a panic attack is difficult to gauge.  They will want to know how you handle that situation.  Can you still manage to function through a panic attack, keeping yourself & others safe, until it passes?  Or do you end up completely unable to manage, totally reliant on another person to get you home?  

Obviously a lot of this is down to the decision makers discretion, there's no simple answer to scoring more points here.

Thanks, @OverlyAnxious

and what about speaking to medical professionals. You kind of have to if you want treatment for some of these problems. 

You mean you are able to, rather than 'have to'.  I haven't been able to speak to any medical professional since 2019.  Obviously that leaves me without any access to the health system, due to my own health issues...the irony! 

But that's still the main point behind all this, if you can speak to the medical professionals well enough to get your points across to them effectively, that does show functional ability within social engagement.  It's the functional ability that PIP are interested in.

bluefox

OverlyAnxious said:

bluefox said:

OverlyAnxious said:

bluefox said:

OverlyAnxious said:

Feeling breathless & nervous doesn't really matter for PIP, as long as you can complete the task reliably, safely and as often as you need to.  (They aren't interested in a bit of discomfort).  But, for example, if the palpitations were so severe that you'd pass out in a social situation, that would no longer be safe.  Equally, if you physically can't speak in a social situation, or can only manage one word answers, that would not be considered reliable.

I haven't managed face to face engagement with any other person in the last 2 years, so would have been very surprised if I hadn't scored the full points in this descriptor this time around lol.

What about social engagement with those outside of your family. Is this about new relationships or old ones as well. 

What if there’s a risk of a seizure in front of a stranger or severe panic attacks. 

It's about all engagement, works on the same 'majority of the time' rule as the other descriptors.  Chances are you're probably meeting people you know more often than strangers.

Risk of seizure will depend on how great that risk is.  How often has it happened in this situation in the past 12 months for example?

Severity of a panic attack is difficult to gauge.  They will want to know how you handle that situation.  Can you still manage to function through a panic attack, keeping yourself & others safe, until it passes?  Or do you end up completely unable to manage, totally reliant on another person to get you home?  

Obviously a lot of this is down to the decision makers discretion, there's no simple answer to scoring more points here.

Thanks, @OverlyAnxious

and what about speaking to medical professionals. You kind of have to if you want treatment for some of these problems. 

You mean you are able to, rather than 'have to'.  I haven't been able to speak to any medical professional since 2019.  Obviously that leaves me without any access to the health system, due to my own health issues...the irony! 

But that's still the main point behind all this, if you can speak to the medical professionals well enough to get your points across to them effectively, that does show functional ability within social engagement.  It's the functional ability that PIP are interested in.

I have social anxiety but I’m encouraged to meet others but I have only spoken to medical professionals majority of the time by phone and the very odd face to face. I can honestly say I feel like I can’t breathe at times when talking to a stranger. Even psychiatrists have detected I have social anxiety via webcam. 

OverlyAnxious

bluefox said:

I have social anxiety but I’m encouraged to meet others but I have only spoken to medical professionals majority of the time by phone and the very odd face to face. I can honestly say I feel like I can’t breathe at times when talking to a stranger. Even psychiatrists have detected I have social anxiety via webcam.

PIP really aren't interested in 'anxiety'.  That's just a feeling.  It doesn't mean anything.  It's functional ability that matters for PIP. 

From what you've said in this thread, it sounds like the 2 point prompting descriptor is correct for your situation.

To get 4 points you would need the support of another person to manage social interactions.

To get 8 points you must experience 'overwhelming psychological distress'.  Which is basically such severe physical anxiety symptoms that you are unable to function in that situation.  (That's the one that I fit myself).

bluefox

OverlyAnxious said:

bluefox said:

I have social anxiety but I’m encouraged to meet others but I have only spoken to medical professionals majority of the time by phone and the very odd face to face. I can honestly say I feel like I can’t breathe at times when talking to a stranger. Even psychiatrists have detected I have social anxiety via webcam.

PIP really aren't interested in 'anxiety'.  That's just a feeling.  It doesn't mean anything.  It's functional ability that matters for PIP. 

From what you've said in this thread, it sounds like the 2 point prompting descriptor is correct for your situation.

To get 4 points you would need the support of another person to manage social interactions.

To get 8 points you must experience 'overwhelming psychological distress'.  Which is basically such severe physical anxiety symptoms that you are unable to function in that situation.  (That's the one that I fit myself).

The last time I tried a social event and it was an absolute one-off. I was begging my partner to ring an ambulance because I thought I was going to die because of panic disorder symptoms. It lasted 30 minutes and I was begging for a first-aider too and quite frantic with suicidal thoughts. 

In the end once I returned home I felt relieved but had a sensation in my throat and palpitations. 

Surely severe panic disorder is overwhelming psychological distress? But how it relates to engaging with others is tricky. 

You said you haven’t seen anyone for two years so you’re pretty avoidant like myself but how did you explain to them how you react because you haven’t tested it? 

Am I on the right lines here?

*********EDIT*******************

Found something of point and maybe useful for anyone else. 

Here is the link:
https://disabilityclaims.uk/pip-for-depression-and-anxiety/#:~:text=It%20is%20certainly%20possible%20to,the%20mental%20illness%20affects%20you.

And here is what it has to say:

When justifying their choice of descriptor under this heading, assessors routinely rely on how the claimant engaged with them and they will often comment on the contact the claimant has with family or with doctors or people in shops but this is not social engagement. Judge Rowley said in SF v SSWP that evidence that the claimant engaged effectively with the assessor, or that they could attend for hospital appointments, or take part in work-related group sessions does not meet the point.

SF v SSWP
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/58527fa240f0b60e4c0000c1/CPIP_2685_2016-00.pdf

********************************

I don’t know how this relates to my conditions because I am diagnosed with panic disorder, functional seizures, social anxiety, ADHD and probable ASD. 

Many of my conditions can cause me issues and distress socialising or engaging socially. And this above point means speaking to a doctor for ten minutes with another person present with me does not mean social engagement. 

OverlyAnxious

bluefox said:

The last time I tried a social event and it was an absolute one-off. I was begging my partner to ring an ambulance because I thought I was going to die because of panic disorder symptoms. It lasted 30 minutes and I was begging for a first-aider too and quite frantic with suicidal thoughts. 

In the end once I returned home I felt relieved but had a sensation in my throat and palpitations. 

Surely severe panic disorder is overwhelming psychological distress? But how it relates to engaging with others is tricky. 

You said you haven’t seen anyone for two years so you’re pretty avoidant like myself but how did you explain to them how you react because you haven’t tested it? 

Am I on the right lines here?

*********EDIT*******************

Found something of point and maybe useful for anyone else. 

Here is the link:
https://disabilityclaims.uk/pip-for-depression-and-anxiety/#:~:text=It%20is%20certainly%20possible%20to,the%20mental%20illness%20affects%20you.

And here is what it has to say:

When justifying their choice of descriptor under this heading, assessors routinely rely on how the claimant engaged with them and they will often comment on the contact the claimant has with family or with doctors or people in shops but this is not social engagement. Judge Rowley said in SF v SSWP that evidence that the claimant engaged effectively with the assessor, or that they could attend for hospital appointments, or take part in work-related group sessions does not meet the point.

SF v SSWP
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/58527fa240f0b60e4c0000c1/CPIP_2685_2016-00.pdf

********************************

I don’t know how this relates to my conditions because I am diagnosed with panic disorder, functional seizures, social anxiety, ADHD and probable ASD. 

Many of my conditions can cause me issues and distress socialising or engaging socially. And this above point means speaking to a doctor for ten minutes with another person present with me does not mean social engagement. 

I have not engaged with any person face to face for over two years (that includes my own Mum), but I am still subjected to engagement by someone knocking on the door, or walking past the window, or ringing the telephone, etc.  All of those things trigger immediate physical reactions in my body, effectively turning my body inside out, leaving me frozen in fear and unable to move for several minutes, which then leaves long lasting consequences from dehydration, muscle fatigue, etc.  That is the evidence I used on the forms this time.


That link shows that people working for PIP often don't understand the benefits system lol...  ESA Support Group is just a level of ESA, nothing to do with group meetings.

I have seen the debate around this descriptor a few times, but they never seem to say exactly what should be classed as engagement, they just emphasise what shouldn't.

One of the things that gets mentioned is long term relationships.  Personally, I've never had a partner, so does that mean I should always have been eligible for PIP based on that?  Not convinced that's how it works myself.

It also considers reading body language, but I'd say misreading body language is unlikely to cause overwhelming psychological distress, so that applies more to the other parts of that descriptor - perhaps someone would need prompting or support to understand when the other person was feeling uncomfortable or expecting them to speak, for example.  Or in the minority cases, it could lead to such severe misunderstanding that the claimant lashed out at the other person, potentially causing harm to themself or others.

It doesn't seem to be quite as straightforward as some of the other descriptors.  If you believe you do meet the descriptor for more points, then I wish you luck with that. 

bluefox

OverlyAnxious said:

bluefox said:

The last time I tried a social event and it was an absolute one-off. I was begging my partner to ring an ambulance because I thought I was going to die because of panic disorder symptoms. It lasted 30 minutes and I was begging for a first-aider too and quite frantic with suicidal thoughts. 

In the end once I returned home I felt relieved but had a sensation in my throat and palpitations. 

Surely severe panic disorder is overwhelming psychological distress? But how it relates to engaging with others is tricky. 

You said you haven’t seen anyone for two years so you’re pretty avoidant like myself but how did you explain to them how you react because you haven’t tested it? 

Am I on the right lines here?

*********EDIT*******************

Found something of point and maybe useful for anyone else. 

Here is the link:
https://disabilityclaims.uk/pip-for-depression-and-anxiety/#:~:text=It%20is%20certainly%20possible%20to,the%20mental%20illness%20affects%20you.

And here is what it has to say:

When justifying their choice of descriptor under this heading, assessors routinely rely on how the claimant engaged with them and they will often comment on the contact the claimant has with family or with doctors or people in shops but this is not social engagement. Judge Rowley said in SF v SSWP that evidence that the claimant engaged effectively with the assessor, or that they could attend for hospital appointments, or take part in work-related group sessions does not meet the point.

SF v SSWP
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/58527fa240f0b60e4c0000c1/CPIP_2685_2016-00.pdf

********************************

I don’t know how this relates to my conditions because I am diagnosed with panic disorder, functional seizures, social anxiety, ADHD and probable ASD. 

Many of my conditions can cause me issues and distress socialising or engaging socially. And this above point means speaking to a doctor for ten minutes with another person present with me does not mean social engagement. 

I have not engaged with any person face to face for over two years (that includes my own Mum), but I am still subjected to engagement by someone knocking on the door, or walking past the window, or ringing the telephone, etc.  All of those things trigger immediate physical reactions in my body, effectively turning my body inside out, leaving me frozen in fear and unable to move for several minutes, which then leaves long lasting consequences from dehydration, muscle fatigue, etc.  That is the evidence I used on the forms this time.


That link shows that people working for PIP often don't understand the benefits system lol...  ESA Support Group is just a level of ESA, nothing to do with group meetings.

I have seen the debate around this descriptor a few times, but they never seem to say exactly what should be classed as engagement, they just emphasise what shouldn't.

One of the things that gets mentioned is long term relationships.  Personally, I've never had a partner, so does that mean I should always have been eligible for PIP based on that?  Not convinced that's how it works myself.

It also considers reading body language, but I'd say misreading body language is unlikely to cause overwhelming psychological distress, so that applies more to the other parts of that descriptor - perhaps someone would need prompting or support to understand when the other person was feeling uncomfortable or expecting them to speak, for example.  Or in the minority cases, it could lead to such severe misunderstanding that the claimant lashed out at the other person, potentially causing harm to themself or others.

It doesn't seem to be quite as straightforward as some of the other descriptors.  If you believe you do meet the descriptor for more points, then I wish you luck with that. 

@OverlyAnxious

I can sympathise, @OverlyAnxious. 

I’ve also been the same in the sense that I haven’t socialised with anyone. There’s been months where I have gone without seeing my partner and he’s been concerned. 

My mum does drop the dog off at my house but I often leave her chatting to my house mate in the garden and just say hello and goodbye. 

But yeah, the one time I did try to socialise. I got into a crowd and was triggered and overwhelmed and basically begged for an ambulance. 

I’ve even refused to go to A&E now for suicidal thoughts because there’s too many people. 

OverlyAnxious

bluefox said:

I can sympathise, @OverlyAnxious. 

I’ve also been the same in the sense that I haven’t socialised with anyone. There’s been months where I have gone without seeing my partner and he’s been concerned. 

My mum does drop the dog off at my house but I often leave her chatting to my house mate in the garden and just say hello and goodbye. 

But yeah, the one time I did try to socialise. I got into a crowd and was triggered and overwhelmed and basically begged for an ambulance. 

I’ve even refused to go to A&E now for suicidal thoughts because there’s too many people. 

It is incredibly frustrating.  I don't want to be like this.  As I'm sure you don't either.

I need the help of other people now, in a practical & medical sense, as well as a social sense.  But I just don't see any way to reach the point of managing socially again when my body creates such severe physical symptoms every time.  I can push through the mental discomfort of anxiety, but I can't manage the physical symptoms of it.  It feels like other people don't generally understand the difference between those two things.  Just keep being told to 'try again' or 'try harder' which has only ever reinforced the anxiety and worsened the physical response.