Pip's under review again

onebigvoice

@Poppy 123456.
 
  The more I read your statements the more I believe you are giving miss information.

  Why do you keep on insisting on referring to it as a "medical assessment" it's not a medical, never has been and never will be.

It's not DWPs responsibility to contact anyone for any information and they very rarely do this. It's the clamants responsibility to prove they quailify, not DWP.

I have always said its not a medical for the reasons I have already explained.  Why take the DWP to London if THEY say it will be conducted by a Professional person REGISTERED ON THE APPROPIATE MEDICAL REGISTER?

  SECOND: It is the DWP to gather all the evidence available ON EVERY CASE, THIS ALSO INCLUDES Medical History, Prescription lists, amount of help being given, i.e physio, operations amd their results or pending, support letters from GP's etc, and Carers.  There is no need for me to name every one, it is also the Decision Makers who work for the DWP to look at the information supplied and decide "Whether further investigation is required," as they have NO Medical Background and sub contract your information to a PRIVATE ASSESSMENT COMPANY, LIKE CAPITA, MAXIMUS, CONCENTRIX AND ATOS.  They also sub contract to others and would supply those details to the DECISION MAKER if the case requires EXPERTISE out side that assessors remit.
  IF as you say they RARELY ASK PEOPLE THAT TREAT YOU, this is grounds of having the report thrown out as this report is BIAS towards the ASSESSMENT REPORT.  And in making there decision ( DECISION MAKER) have only used that information in support of giving you ZERO.

  Your comments on this point please.

onebigvoice

@Poppy 123456.
  No, absolutely not, you can't pay for your own assessment.

Please be careful with the information you're giving because it's very misleading. In the rules of the forum it clearly asks you not to give misleading information, yet you persistently do this. You can see the houserules here. https://www.scope.org.uk/community-house-rules/

  Sorry you can pay for your own assessment or you can when at a Tribunal challange the "report" written by the assessor on the grounds of seperating what is medical fact, what is their opinion, and where they drew their conclusions from including any data they may have used to support there report.
  That same report MUST be signed by the assessor, include their I D as shown on the Professional register including their title.  And must also contain a disclaimer stating that they understand what the report is to be used for and should the court find that the quality of the report, or that it cannot be used to "assess" makes them liable to proceedings from the court which may result is suspension, fines, review of previous work and possible rework, and a fine from the court, it also gives the claimant permission to also sue the Assessor for not forefilling the charter and legislations that come under "Expert Witness statements"
  I did not give false information I quoted the 3 years in a row that I took the DWP to a Tribunal and then took my case to Parliament in 2014, where the DWP rebranded and removed the words MEDICAL from all their documentation when talking about the assessment process.
  Including the sineage in the Medical Health Assessment centers, hence the rebranded name, since its not a Medical Health Assessment anything.  Its a new POSH name for a Job Center assessment.  

onebigvoice

Biblioklept said:

onebigvoice said:

  You decide,  and still say its NOT A MEDICAL EXAMINATION BUT AN INTERVIEW FOR ACCESS TO BENEFITS ONLY.
  Please stop saying I said its a MEDICAL EXAMINATION, we all know it is, other wise get them to ASK THE PEOPLE THAT TREAT ME.

I think this is a very black and white way of thinking about it. On a very technical level you could argue it's akin to a medical examination and I get why you say so and what you're trying to express, but it isn't really medical at all. A medical examination is for the purpose of diagnosis and treatment.

These assessments are to see what you can and can't do, regardless of diagnosis or treatment. It's about your current functional capability and whether you can perform the crazy activity descriptors that they think decides if someone could do with more help. 

chiarieds said:

Sorry, but keeping on repeating the same thing doesn't then make your assumption correct. Perhaps you can provide a link showing that PIP assessments are a medical examination, & not an assessment of the claimant's function? You said above that you were going to try & stick to basic fact; please do.

 If the person doing the assessment is not qualified, can you tell me how they assess you if they have no idea as to the treatment being given, whether its a "quick fix" and can assess to say review in 3 months as 
Capita assessment: Zero can manage with aids and tablets.

Lets deal with this first:
  When I talk about qualifications I mean for the Job at hand.
  Yes they can be EX-Doctors, Nurses, Physio Therepists, Surgeons, Paramedic's or any other Medical Professional Body, BUT in order to retain the use of the TITLE they have to keep up there certification.
 Simple example:  First Aider for 10 years, registered on the register at work, decided to leave, joins another company.  On CV, I have been a First Aider for 10 years, can that company use her as a First Aider?
  Yes they can.  Only if she rerigesters as a First Aider with that company.
If the company because of her CV use this person as a First Aider and there is an accident, will the Person treat the injured person.  Yers she would because of her experience and the company said she could.  The treated person becomes seriously ill and becomes bed bound because of the assessment at that time saying there is no need to go to the hospital for treatment, in my opinion that head would showed no need to have further treatment.  
  Because she had the title of First Aider and the company agreed that because of her background she was fit to practice who is to blame for the injuries caused?
  The First Aider for using the title THAT SHE HAD with out reregistering? 
The company for using her expertise, without reregistering on their books that this person is now able to practice as a First Aider because of her previous experience.
  HR for not realising that an person who was registered with another company as a First Aider can be registered as a first aider once refresher courses state that they have had their certificates renewed with this company and are on their books as a first Aider, even if before leaving the previous company a week before they had just had their certificates renewed?
  ALL, because in order to give an "opinion" of what is stopping you from returning to work you have assumed that this First Aider is what they say they are? and registered.

My problem is that when I talk about being registered on a Professional Register whether its the NMC or GMC register or any other body that requires you to be registered to practice whether as a practicing medical practitioner or as a "consultant" which is were the assessors are, YOU STILL HAVE TO BE REGISTERED.

  Look at your last report completed by Capita, Maximus, Concentrix or ATOS, we all know that the statement is "All our assessors a Practical Medical Practioners" and are registered on a Professional register on the day of the assessment and that their certification is up to date?
  You should agree with that statement because its in their charter and in Legislation.
  So as such in allowing your self to be examined whether medically or of access to benefits you are lead to believe that the person conducting the assessment is Qualified in SOMETHING?
  Being hired by the DWP to give there expertise to a report that can be used to assess someones ability to do or not do something, no matter whether its walking, standing, cooking, sleeping, has nothing to do with administering sick notes, saying that Tramadol should or should not be taken or whether certain aids are necessary or not if not used, because this requires a medical expertise to understand the prescription, even though they may not give a medical examination, BUT they do as well, since in the appointment details before every assessment it states, we have made an appointment for a Medical Examination at our Health Assessment centre, with an assessor at 2.30pm next Tuesday, please bring...... on the day.
  Look at your charter or appointment letters and count the number of times it mentions MEDICAL?
  Yes I have mentioned it time and time again and it must also be remembered that while I value your imput into my posts whther from Admin or from others the advice you give me is exactly that.
  I deal with Scope, the assessment process every day among other things that I do and can send anyone a copy of the WHITE PAPER being sent to scope for their approval, and the Government has changed yet again the assessment process.  This is not, a may come into force thing after discussion, its a we are changing the assessment process and the way we are looking at the disability descriptors, this is top make claiming Disability Benefits harder to get.
  If you don't realise this and if you actually care to read the link you have made ask Admin for a copy of the link sent to them by the Government for changing the descriptors for benefits and what they intend on doing in DECEMBER THIS YEAR?   

Court Assessment from Court appointed Doctor:  Examination completed 29 points+  but for admin purposes 29 point never to be assessed again.

  Maybe you can explain the assessment process that the assessors have to give and whether that assessment can be used since they only give an opinion to the decision maker who has hired the assessor for a report he could use?  he could have given an opinion the same as the assessor.
  If you refuse to have an assessment completed by you what happens?  Can you pay for your own assessment?     
  And also stand by this statement.  The assessment process has changes 4 times since last year, as the Whiter Paper covering assessment had changed in FEB AND JULY 2022 and again in Feb this year and although reinforced in July/August 2023, the DWP will not abide by its ruling.
  This is where they thought they would be smart, by stating that all assessors must show their I D number on the reports written by them and sign it, ( Among the other 10 points of the the charter) IN ORDER TO BE PAID.  It also states ( because they are giving an expert opinion) that ALL REWORK, that includes MR or FOI requests will not be paid for and would be footed by their company,  ALSO NOT BEING ADHERED TO BY THE ASSESSMENT COMPANY OR THE DWP.  All the assessors did was up the price of the assessment to include the rework into the price OF EVERY ASSESSMENT,  At the last time I looked it went from £650 for a basic assessment to £850, and is now in excess of £1300 PER ASSESSMENT.  So while you are looking to say you are happy with the assessment system as it is maybe you could explain what I am getting for my £1300 assessment?
  And I would really like to know not just state that is what the system is paying, I would really in simple term like to know what you are actually getting.  Like I get and assessment appointment, a report, and further assessment by a decision maker a decision from the decision maker about my case?  But what I am asking is what do I get for £1300 being charged by the assessment company on top of the DWP charge for the case? 

poppy123456

onebigvoice said:

@Poppy 123456.
 
  The more I read your statements the more I believe you are giving miss information.

That's hilarious, especially after i just read your last 3 comments... I give up! I give advice and facts, not misinformation!!

Hannah_Alumni

This is a really passionate topic to talk about for so many people. I will just remind everyone to stay civil and be kind

@onebigvoice can I ask, where did you get the stats from about costs of assessments? I did try to find them myself and couldn't.

I do worry that there is already such a media narrative that those who claim benefits are just "costing the government money" so I wanted to check on the source for that. Also to make it a bit clearer that those costs are not to the person going through the assessment. As it did sound like the claimant had to put up the cost. 

poppy123456

I can't believe this thread is allowed to remain open!

chiarieds

How first aiders got into this discussion I'll never know; I don't believe they are HCPs.

How could ex-Drs (!!) be registered with the GMC?

For your information physiotherapists can also supply fit notes: https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/fit-note

Physiotherapists as well as Occupational Therapists will know of course know about aids

Why do you keep on thinking that HCPs are not qualified?

From the IAS website: https://www.mypipassessment.co.uk/your-assessment/at-your-pip-consultation#who-you-will-see-1568

''You will be seen by an experienced Health Professional. This will either be:

• A registered nurse (both general and mental health specialists)
• A physiotherapist
• An occupational therapist
• A paramedic

These Health Professionals come from a variety of backgrounds, including NHS hospitals and private practice, so they have experience of working with all sorts of health conditions and disabilities. They’ll treat you with professionalism, dignity and respect throughout the consultation process.

Their role is simply to find out more about your individual needs. They won’t attempt to diagnose your symptoms or recommend treatment.

All of our Health Professionals are experienced practitioners and trained in health and disability assessment.''

The above is a factual statement,

chiarieds M.C.S.P.

WelshBlue

Each of the 6 assessors I've had for ESA and PIP have always been fair, compassionate and never skewed the evidence against me.  I've seen an Occupational Therapist, a Nurse, a Physio and 2 Paramedics - had one paper based by DM

Every person has never called it a medical - but what I always thought it is ... an assessment as to my WCA or my living needs

I realise I've been very lucky, but do believe there are more good assessors than bad ?

My own daughter as a paramedic is considering going to the 'dark side' part-time, in case her MS curtails her career, so she has got something to fall back on.  

I like to think she'll take every case on the evidence and the merits, to score highly when needed, but to also be hard enough when not.  

poppy123456

Biblioklept said:

poppy123456 said:

I can't believe this thread is allowed to remain open!

This is a genuine question so I hope you don't take it to be rude as it isn't meant rudely but why?? Like what is wrong with it? I've found it really interesting but will admit some of the posts are a bit too long for me to digest in one sitting   
There's many I don't really like but I just don't read or reply to them

It's full of so much misinformation from onebigvoice. This has been going on for a long time and various members are constantly correcting the information they are giving.

chiarieds

Hi @Biblioklept - yes, onebigvoice's threads are long, & if I may say, rather convoluted. We've been here before many times, & their threads have been closed down due to their, I'm sure, unintentional misinformation & misunderstanding, but misinformation nonetheless.

onebigvoice has a bee in his bonnet about assessors needing to show their ID (or he doesn't want to be assessed by them); he now says PIP assessments are not medical assessments (which should be a relief), but on the other hand, as you've noticed, is saying that it is, as 'medical' questions are asked.

He muddles terminology up talking about an assessor's 'diagnosis,' then says 'prognosis,' which seems to be his own, differs. I would politely suggest that it would be a Dr that gives a diagnosis, & sometimes a prognosis.

He appears to think that a DWP decision maker could form an opinion without a HCP's report, & presumably without an assessment, which usually happens.

He has a thing about the assessor only being able to form an opinion, it seems against medical fact.

He thinks only your medical fact should be looked at, & that's the only thing that should be taken into account.

He hasn't taken onboard, despite our best efforts, that PIP is literally looking at 'How your disability affects you,' regardless of your diagnosis, or even lack of one.

Despite comparitively recently being in hospital, he thinks a HCP who might be a nurse or physio will have no understanding about knee replacements, which are fairly common surgeries.

It's fairly well known in this forum that tribunals often don't consider assessors reports as they're often poorly written, but he keeps on going on about them.

I could go on, but my post might get as long as his. In summary his focus is all in the wrong place; his are about the assessors & their reports. yet never considers that a well written claim/review form is the most important thing......even without any 'medical' evidence!

As a long retired physio myself, I have been unable to get across to him that we do actually know about a lot of disabilities, & how it might affect a person's daily living &/mobility from such a background. But, because every person will still likely be affected differently, then that's why a claimant needs to spell out exactly how they're affected with the forms they return.

He seems to just want a medical opinion (well Drs & consultants are going to want to be HCPs in their droves), yet even a Dr cannot know about every disorder.

poppy123456

Sometimes it's so much better to thank a person for their comment, rather than click "like or awesome" so @chiarieds thank you so much for that comment. I couldn't have said it better myself, that's for sure. I appreciate the time it must have taken to type all of that!

chiarieds

And thank you poppy for your kind comment. I know bar the odd individual that I've come across in the last 4 years here on Scope, that everyone here helps (& none more than you), & is supportive to the best of their ability.

I know how it troubles me when misinformation is allowed to continue, & altho the house rules say that nothing should be 'misleading,' that this isn't implemented quick enough.

poppy123456

You're welcome. I agree that everyone is helpful, with the exception of the odd few.

What got to me also was the comment from onebigvoice where they believe i've given misinformation. I don't believe that for one minute, infact, pigs are more likely to fly high in the sky before i do such a thing.

I always try to post a link to any advice i give so that it backs up what i've said is correct. Of course, when giving advice that includes figures, it's not possible to post a link.

What i find funny is onebigvoice has liked my comment where i said "i can't believe this thread has remained open"

chiarieds said:

I know how it troubles me when misinformation is allowed to continue, & altho the house rules say that nothing should be 'misleading,' that this isn't implemented quick enough.

Yes, it troubles me also and i can't help but try to correct that information. I do find his comments very difficult to read and follow too. I feel the team have ignored this thread and allowed the comments to continue, it's so wrong.

Adeline

I've found many of the comments on here to be quite shocking to have been allowed as they are far from kind. You can disagree with someone without publicly shaming them. If you changed the name in some of these posts to other usernames, whether the comments were justified or not, people would be very upset and crying for action. Why can you talk about less popular people that way when it wouldn't be accepted in reverse. It reminds me of highschool. 
Does any one realise you're all on the same side? Assessments and their reports are poor and usually badly written. That's a fact that surely no one could disagree with? They're also meant to be by registered health care providers, from what I've seen @onebigvoice is trying to raise attention to the fact that many are now not, they're ex or have lapsed. And highlighting his shared work in having the word 'medical' removed from much of the DWP paperwork and terminology used, as it isn't a medical assessment. It's still widely called a medical assessment by many charities such as turn2us and citizen's advice. 
https://www.turn2us.org.uk/get-support/information-for-your-situation/claiming-personal-independence-payment-pip/going-to-the-personal-independence-payment-pip-medical-assessment

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/benefits/sick-or-disabled-people-and-carers/pip/help-with-your-claim/your-assessment/

(This one being particularly funny as they say it isn't a medical examination but then refer to it as a medical assessment throughout.)
The DWP also used to and still in some pieces of their paperwork call it a medical assessment.

There have also been inaccurate comments from multiple posters despite assertions to the contrary.

WhatThe

Some of the confusion arises because the health assessment leads to a 'medical report'

I agree with Adeline's comments 100%

Community_Scope

Note from online community team: 

 

Where possible we like all discussions to continue, but we’re choosing to pause this discussion for now so things can cool down and we can review it. For more information, please read our online community 

house rules. 

 We will review it and if we are satisfied the discussion can continue, we will hope to un-pause it by 9th of October.