Money owed nearly 3 years after bankruptcy.

Keith40

Hi everybody. Hope your all well. I had a very helpful answer in the previous question I asked so thought I'd give this a try.

I worked my whole life until June 2020 and was basically forced out of my employment, that's not the issue as I believed it happened for a reason, unhappy in the job of 19 years, been bullied and was not in a good way mentally also 50k in debt.

As my conditions worsened I was new to this claiming benefits and I was on ESA for 6 months and then UC from then. 

On Nov 3rd I declared myself bankrupt as the only option and the feeling of not been in debt was unreal as have been over 20 years. I was afraid that government debts wouldn't be included. Only small advances and emergency loan whilst going through a bad patch. And they were actually covered including the other 20 odd creditors. 

In Jan 2022, 2 years later. I had a letter saying about some kind of overpayment. 950 pounds from ESA, from the period 11th July 2020, to 9th November 2020. 

I called debt management who traced where the 1 pound that comes out my UC every month was related to and that was it. They asked me to send proof of my bankruptcy files..so I did signed for tracked. Noticing it had been delivered I call up. They tell me that I DO owe it them, as the period passes my bankruptcy by 6 days.

Well they have admitted to not informing me until Jan 2022, as they weren't aware. And surely, I mean surely if I was aware I'd of waited 6 days to pass before the bankruptcy. 

My automatic thought was well surely this isn't fair as now the gloom and darkness of debt has stuck with me as I know since bankruptcy. Not 1 loan or any debt have I got into. I've said give me the benefit of the doubt of your agreeing I wasn't made aware for over 26 months. So the 180 days, work out to what the 6 days extra would be as a pose to paying the whole 6 months worth.  As I don't know how I can pay it off. 

I'm awaiting a confirmation from the insolvency service but it's took me right back to that dark gloomy sad place I was in with 50k on my shoulders.

Does anybody agree this isn't fair as I wasn't told for 26 months. Now I'm in no position to pay it. And I'm not debt free as I've thought this whole time.

Kind regards
Keith

Hannah_Alumni

Hello @Keith40

Welcome to the community!

I am so sorry for what you have been through. I'm afraid this isn't my area of expertise but I know that Citizen's Advice may be able to help advise better in this area. They have a section on Debt and Money that I would encourage you to read. 

MW123

Hello Keith 

I can understand how frustrating and distressing this situation must be for you especially when unexpected debts arise after you thought you were debt-free. 

Regarding the overpayment issue with ESA, the timing of when you were made aware of the debt and when the bankruptcy occurred seems to be a critical factor. However, the rules and regulations surrounding benefit overpayments can be complex and depend on various factors. 

If the overpayment occurred before you declared bankruptcy and the debt was owed to the government, it is possible that it may not have been included in the bankruptcy discharge, and you may still be responsible for repaying it. 

You mentioned, you are awaiting confirmation from the insolvency service. This is an important step to take, as they will have the most accurate information regarding the details of your bankruptcy and how it affects your situation now. 

I am truly sorry to hear about your situation, you've put in significant effort to improve your financial situation.  If, in the worst-case scenario, they do not back down, I remain confident that they will be open to setting up a repayment plan for you. This would allow you to repay the money gradually over the next few years, easing the burden on you.  Fingers crossed it does not come to that.

Keith40

Hi thanks for the reply. I've had a few collectors of collectors in the last 12 months or so contact me. And yes if the debt was from before the bankruptcy date of 3rd Nov 2020 its included, although it may not show on my creditors list. I had that many. Obviously the debts get sold on, then onto other debt agencies from there. 

The most frustrating thing is....dwp do admit they informed me 26 months after the overpayment. And the overpayment was from the period 11th July 2020 to 9th November 2020. How frustrating as through debt I did some silly things and as selfish as it sounds I didn't want to be alive with it all so the weight off my shoulders was unreal. 

Surely if I'd have known this I'd have hung on for 6 days and this would be cleared. I've spoken to the insolvency helpline as its been nearly 3 years so struggling to track down my official receiver, but the 2 people I have spoken to, said exactly what I was thinking. 

This 180 day overpayment. Adding up to 6 months payments. How its worked out I don't know as new to claiming benefits but why can't they agree that I'm not blaming them...but as I wasn't informed for over 2 years and if I'd have waited 6 days.....itbwould be wiped. Work out the 6 of the 180 days divided and I'm more than willing to adhere. It's just one thing after the other. Will I ever be out of debt. 

Kind regards
Keith

poppy123456

You would have been claiming New style ESA at the time. When claiming this and UC the ESA is deducted in full from any UC entitlement. If you went through the work capability assessment then this maybe where the overpayment came from. 

Even if they had informed you earlier I don’t think it would have helped you because the overpayment date was from after you filed for bankruptcy and they wouldn’t have contacted you before 9th November anyway. 

It’s just very unfortunate that this happened. If the overpayment would have been from an earlier date then you would have had grounds for a complaint. 

Keith40

Again thank you Poppy. If this is the case, I'm been asked if I want to go ahead with a mandatory reconsideration regarding my recent award of LCWRA backdated to October 22. 

You stated in another discussion that me been awarded LCW in Jan 22 and after been told why I wasn't and did not receive any extra during the period leading to October 22, was too late for me to appeal as it completely contradicts itself, I did not once between Jan to Oct 22 speak about work or preparing for work. Not once attend the job centre through mental health reasons that have escalated and other diagnosis confirmed within that time. Physically and mentally. I had approximately 4 maybe 5 calls of maybe no more than 2 minutes. So 10 months of not having to meet the criteria explained the reason for me not seeing any extra money as stated in the report, 'you may' see extra. 

If I do owe the dwp this money as you stated I'm unlucky within the 6 day time frame of my bankruptcy. Does a mandatory reconsideration that I've been asked in my journal if I want to submit, does that jeaordise my recent award of LCWRA? Or can I appeal for the timescale between Jan 22 and Oct 22 as I could pay that money back if I was to get backdated to then.  If it was not considered, would my recent decision backdated from October 22 to present, would that be reconsidered? I can't risk anything but if it's something I feel i am entitled to as i was explained to why I wasn't seeing any extra as awarded the LCW, but I didn't do anything they said to meet the criteria for LCW as in attending job centre, preparing for work or attend a work focused interview. They note in my journal I have but I didn't. Not once. I'm really confused as I'm been asked should I confirm to the reconsideration. I'm not sure if they are referring to the whole period. Jan22 to present. Or Jan22 -Oct22. You did mention I could of appealed the original LCW decision back then but it is too late. I'm being asked in my journal to confirm I want to appeal. If so what date of Jan 22. 

I don't want anything to backfire as I don't know a thing about this but if it was to be accepted. It could pay the overpayment off.

Kind regards
Keith

Keith40

Saying they can't confirm the original recent decision of LCWRA would be be removed unless it went to investigation, and its a rarity but can't confirm this won't happen. But unlikely. And asking if I want to proceed with the mandatory reconsideration to Jan 22. Do I proceed? Have I anything to lose? 

I'm confused.

poppy123456

You are out of time to do anything about the LCW decision in Jan 2022. The maximum time limit you have for this is absolute 13 months. The reason the LCWRA is backdated to Oct 2022 is because that's when you reported your health condition had changed.

Keith40

Yeah that was my reply to the message I received asking if I want to go ahead and pursue it to before Jan. They said not many cases go to a changed decision on the original award but they also agree that from day 1 in Jan.....I've been treated EXACTLY the same with my journal full of me asking why I'm not getting extra, the reason I was asking is I wasn't required to attend the job centre also I think I had 3 , 2 minute calls from then until October as just a Hi and Bye basically. Left twiddling my thumbs thinking....OK I get it now why I'm not getting extra as it said you 'may' see increased payments. It was explained that its because I still have to commit to 5 hours work prep and attend all of my 'work focused interviews'. I didn't have a work focused interview. No jobcentre and completely didn't have to do any activity in which they were saying I had to do, hence LCW. I did not once in the maybe 20 journal messages get told I could appeal the LWC. 

I wonder why they have asked if they want my permission to pursue the matter and specifically said, do you want a mandatory decision into seeing if they will payback to the January. Its nothing I've suggested.

Like I said, if only I'd of known I could of appealed it up to 13 months after and not once was it mentioned. 

They're saying they don't think it would effect my recent LWCRA award, only if it went to investigation. Sounds a bit odd. 

It was even mentioned when the arrangement of my backpay was sorted last week and haven't even had my UC yet. Not until next week. 

I fully understand but can't see why they are suggesting it and saying it would more than not go in my favour as its very rare they've seen it happen. Is it worth the risk? Its not me asking the question. 

I think.as I owe this overpayment which isn't covered by bankruptcy as 6 days out. Maybe that's what they are asking if I'd like to do it. 

Im been treated exactly the same as I was 18 months ago and looking at my journal I think they can see me pleading for an explanation as I've not had to commit to anything from day.

Maybe they've realised they should have awarded me the extra as my circumstances are the same. 

Strange. Why would they be telling me there's nothing to worry about and it would be a rarity for it to go for investigation. 

I get what your saying totally. Do you think they've realised they have messed up or trying to fish me into something that could backfire. I mean could they take the back pay back now I've been payed it....its really bugging me. 

I fully understand your answer. 

Thanks again
Keith

poppy123456

When you had the decision last January it would have told you on there that you could request the Mandatory Reconsideration if you disagree with the decision. All of the decision letters say "you maybe entitled to extra money" That part of the decision letters are all standard.

You can ask them if they will backdate it to an earlier date but as you didn't report a change of health condition, supported by fit notes they may refuse. It will be down to a decision maker to make the final decision.

That decision made at the time in Jan 2022 can no longer be challenged, as i advised.

Keith40

Again thanks for the reply. I'm now aware that I 'could' of appealed that initial decision in Jan 22....and told I no longer need to provide fit notes, I was still adding changes of medication and new diagnosis as and when they were confirmed. I'd made them aware i had upcoming scans and appointments with psychiatrists so all I did was be completely honest and not self diagnos, although the condition was there, as until confirmed by specialists I'd never do that. 

The person I'm speaking to now, that's the person that back in Feb 22, after me questioning the no increase in money which only until around 3 months ago I fully understand. 

They explained to me that LWC means there's a period of you not having to provide sick notes, but....Still have to apply to 'work focused interviews via the jobcentre as a way of preparing for work in the future. 

Literally around 3 times I was called as it was arranged through 1 of my conditions I did not have to attend the job centre and these so called 'work focused interviews' would be via phonecall.  I wasn't assigned a regular coach should I say and the 3 calls, approximately 3 months apart were for a matter of 2 minutes, not discussing any work, courses, prep for work or the word work in general. More about my wellbeing and hope everything gets better soon as these calls were just check In calls by a different person each time. No disrespect to these people as just doing their job. But basically a 'hi and bye'. 

I'd then notice in my journal, I have attended my work focused interview...again, leading up to the period of Oct 22, after being told about the difference of LCW and LCWRA I started to think hang on, I do get the jist here, but is it not fraud, saying I've attended work focused interviews, when I haven't. In the commitment section it said I was required to do 5 hours a week of work related search activity. I not once spent 1 second doing this. 

Also I have in my journal one of the calls I was due, they never even called me, as 1 minute after the call was due, to save sanctioning and to cover my own back...I put a note in journal to say I'm here with my phone beside me and I've not received the call arranged 3 months ago. 

No, I did not hand any sick notes in from Jan to Oct 22 but I was still attending doctors, I'd come out of recovery which I'm now 3 and a half years into abstinent.  

It wasn't until the October I was asked to start providing sick notes and for the first time, assigned a lovely person who then called me quite frequent and down to my problems, was a phonrcall away and would call me if not on the day, the day after if I added a note in my journal.

I'd explained ALL of this to the person, who automatically told me to apply for PIP and also straight away changed my hours of commitment to 0 in my journal. They mentioned I am due another health assessment so then I started with the doc notes again. Even she said, 100% you would get LCWRA backdated to this date but may get backdated to Jan as she knows that the whole time I've not had to do as explained, what you have to do meeting the LCW criteria. 

I've now been awarded it and yes backdated. And now within a week or 2 told i can do a mandatory decision to when the LCWRA should be backdated to, by the exact person who was telling me in the Feb 22 why I wasn't getting extra. I'd also spoke to this person maybe in the April or June as I was still baffled because what I was being told was completely contradicting itself. Not once.....not once knowing my circumstances and not having to do 1 thing the LCW criteria requires was I told I could appeal the original decision.

The person is now saying to me do you want me to submit the mandatory decision to appeal it should be backdated to the Jan 22. More than once in my journal. 

I've said is there any risk in doing this. This is something they spoke on the phone to me about....without me mentioning it.....saying do I want the backdated payment in 1 or devided, also they said, 'you never know, it could get to the point it gets backdated to Jan 22 as the DWP do make mistakes'. 

Now here they are asking me, off their own will, if they want me to submit this to appeal the backdate date to Jan 22. 

Are they been genuine, or is it fishy. They have nothing to gain or lose personally so I'm thinking are they genuinely been kind. 

Me asking if its going to jeopardise anything....the answer is, 'well, in most cases its rejected or goes in favour of the recipient, but the only way it could mess things up is if it went to investigation. But they cannot guarantee for sure that this will not happen, as they aren't making that decision. 

It's messing around with my head. They are off until Monday and I didn't sleep 2 days ago through it thinking its a huge gamble. But why....why would they be saying it.....also they mentioned it when discussing how I wanted my backdated pay. 

I've said...I don't want to submit anything regarding my recent LCWRA as its been a really tough 18 months. So am just greatful for the position I'm in now. 

But now I'm been told I owe that 950 overpayment 3 years after going bankrupt. Why can't that just be considered on the terms I've mentioned as it is 9 months of 390 pounds which would pay that off and in a way compensate me in my eyes for a wrong decision been made on paper as the whole time I've been treated as I would if awarded LCWRA without the extra money. 

This person can see this now so not sure they want to shoot me in the foot or genuinely help. They seem really nice but like I say it's a gamble. Too much of a big one. 

Thanks again
Mr Completely Confused

Keith40

Also.....what is cropping up in my mind. Literally....2 weeks after my assessment in mid July. I have the call off this person, the one I said back from Feb 2022....regarding the backpayment. And was in my bank within 2 days. I've still not even had my first actual payment of LWCRA yet....and I know that somebody I know who went through the health assessment. Got awarded.....the backpayment is approximately 3 months after your 1st initial payment. And like I say....in that phonecall....they said 'well, its definitely been backdated to October 22, and DWP do get things wrong from time to time so you never know, they may say your entitled to the backpay to Jan 22. That was without me mentioning it. It seems to be the Head of debt recovery or one of the head people as when I asked the coach I was eventually assigned who added notes to say I've not ever been asked, or involve in anything work related ever. After been told, I was sent a message to get somebody to reassure me. Low and behold it was that same person again.