PIP Result,

woollywonder

Hi all, just a query - I seem to remember reading somewhere that PIP assessors/decision makers shouldn't be using medication levels etc as a reason for dismissing anxiety/depression now. Can anyone guide me to where I might be able to find this out? 

I am having NHS therapy but do not have 'specialist input' into my MH (how on earth does anyone get specialist therapy post covid?) Also 'mixing with others' - should not place undue emphasis on being able to do a phone assessment - is it not supposed to be looking at face to face AND only the majority of the time?    Apparently I also do not have any issues with cognition, despite having Fibro and MS lesions on the brain -hahahaha!

And I can manage my therapy alone despite having categorical written instructions from my neuro physio stating why I must be supervised doing my exercise plan due to the danger of injury from falls and dizziness....

I am aware of what to do for an MR, have already given real life examples in my initial form... and will try to do so again for MR.

I was awarded standard mobility with 10 points (which I felt I probably would not get)

But was awarded only 6 points for Daily Living . 

 I burn myself frequently and drop things due to neuropathy and pain and sent evidence of burns so wonder whether I should have scored more than 2 (which I got for having a perch stool) for cooking?

Also I feel I should have :2 for needing supervision with therapy/physio, 2 for needing prompting to mix with other people and 2 for dressing.

They basically dismissed those on the basis of not high enough meds, no specialist MH care, good enough grip (because of driving - but that is not weight bearing and I don't drive more than 20% of the time *because* of painful/unreliable grip and fatigue/meds etc) and said I can lift my legs to dress even though I explained I have to lift my legs *with my arms* to put on underwear, trousers, socks, shoes. Also that I cannot always dress until late in the day due to neuropathic skin sensations, pain and lack of motivation.

So doesn't seem much I can use in MR, that I haven't explained already in my forms. Therefore I could do with guidance to info that can help me word it more effectively, ie. with rules/legislation etc.

I also wish to challenge the length of the award (2026)  because my condition is predominantly progressive MS - no relapses since 2018 but steady disability progression documented by MS consultant and backed up by me being put on a very £££ disease moifying drug to try and slow future damage. So, I may not get worse, but I definitely will *not* improve in the areas I already struggle with.

I'll phone for my assessment report but will obviously base MR mostly on decision letter

On a lighter note, My form was recived 21 Sept. Phone Assessment 8 November. Decision letter typed 14 November and received today. How quick!!

So sorry for such a long whinge! If you managed to read this far, any suggestions for where to find info for me to reference to strengthen my MR are really appreciated x

Carlosos

Sounds like you’re really on the ball tbh. Keep doing what you’re doing and it must work out in the end. It seems to me appealing dwp decisions is just a standard part of claiming pip. 

woollywonder

Carlosos said:

Sounds like you’re really on the ball tbh. Keep doing what you’re doing and it must work out in the end. It seems to me appealing dwp decisions is just a standard part of claiming pip. 

It seems so.. until I can see the assessors report, I won't know which evidence has been used. The DM has just stated "all the evidence" - I seem to remember from doing this years ago for my ASD child that they listed the evidence used. Hey ho!

poppy123456

One thing you don’t need to request the MR is the assessment report. This only causes a distraction to what you should focus on. 

Basing the MR on either the report or the decision letter isn’t recommended. Doing so isn’t going to get you a PIP award. It’s fine to mention a couple of obvious errors/contradictions but then forgot about it and move on. 

The part in the decision letter about medication levels is one of the standard copy and paste reasons, same as no specialist input, which you should ignore. 

You mention burning yourself frequently and dropping things when preparing food. What exactly do you burn yourself on and drop? Carrying items around the kitchen isn’t part of the descriptors. Same as using an oven. A hob or microwave are both part of the descriptors. 

You said you gave real world examples in the form but what sort of information did you give them? A lot of people get confused between that and an assertion. 

If you kept a copy of the form you filled in I’d advise you to have a look through it. Telling them you can’t do abc because of xyz isn’t helpful and a lot of people do this. 

What you need to do for the MR is state where and why you think you should have scored those points. The real world examples should include information such as where you were, what exactly happened, did anyone see it and what the consequences were. 

You may also find this helpful, if you haven’t already read it. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/personal-independence-payment-assessment-guide-for-assessment-providers/pip-assessment-guide-part-2-the-assessment-criteria#daily-living-activities

woollywonder

poppy123456 said:

One thing you don’t need to request the MR is the assessment report. This only causes a distraction to what you should focus on. 

Basing the MR on either the report or the decision letter isn’t recommended. Doing so isn’t going to get you a PIP award. It’s fine to mention a couple of obvious errors/contradictions but then forgot about it and move on. 

The part in the decision letter about medication levels is one of the standard copy and paste reasons, same as no specialist input, which you should ignore. 

You mention burning yourself frequently and dropping things when preparing food. What exactly do you burn yourself on and drop? Carrying items around the kitchen isn’t part of the descriptors. Same as using an oven. A hob or microwave are both part of the descriptors. 

You said you gave real world examples in the form but what sort of information did you give them? A lot of people get confused between that and an assertion. 

If you kept a copy of the form you filled in I’d advise you to have a look through it. Telling them you can’t do abc because of xyz isn’t helpful and a lot of people do this. 

What you need to do for the MR is state where and why you think you should have scored those points. The real world examples should include information such as where you were, what exactly happened, did anyone see it and what the consequences were. 

You may also find this helpful, if you haven’t already read it. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/personal-independence-payment-assessment-guide-for-assessment-providers/pip-assessment-guide-part-2-the-assessment-criteria#daily-living-activities

Thanks Poppy, I think I may have that document saved. My examples were as you describe - my dropping things includes utensils, food, have dropped a (thankfully cold) kettle,  have dropped hot food when taking out of microwave, burned myself on steam from pans due to my grip slipping , and on the airfryer (which doesn't count I think).   You say to ignore the copy/paste remarks about meds/specialist input but those were the only reasons given on descriptors relating to low mood/anxiety and I had already given examples, so I'm not sure how much more clearly I can explain, but I'll try!.

I will draft out my MR whilst waiting for the report anyway, it's funny, the areas I felt less confident about were where I scored points, and the area where I felt very confident (Needing supervision for neuro physio daily therapy as documented by her after assessing me in clinic) I didn't!

poppy123456

Carrying items around the kitchen, including pots, pans, kettles and carrying food to where it will be eaten isn't considered in the activity. Serving food on a plate is included. It advises all of this in the guide i linked to above.

Yes, ignore them because they are a ridiculous reason for not awarding points. Many people do not take any medication or have any specialist imput and are awarded without any issues. Concentrate on where and why you think you should have scored those points. Not on the decision letter or assessment report.

I can't comment on the real world examples you put because i don't know what you wrote.

chiarieds

I think this may help you re: lack of specialist input: https://www.rightsnet.org.uk/forums/viewthread/17167/  you'll also see case law mentioned in this thread in MM v SSWP. Tho not too sure it's a good idea to quote case law at this stage.

I'd agree, that being able to talk about your difficulties to someone like a Health Care Professional in your PIP assessment (which you are well versed in) is absolutely not the same as mixing with others face to face. I'll try to see if I can find more on this tomorrow.

About managing therapy, is this something that has been specifically recommended by your physio?

About dressing, then if you suffer from neuropathic pain, etc. then why does that change so you can later dress? I'm not trying to be argumentative, rather playing devil's advocate.

woollywonder

chiarieds said:

I think this may help you re: lack of specialist input: https://www.rightsnet.org.uk/forums/viewthread/17167/  you'll also see case law mentioned in this thread in MM v SSWP. Tho not too sure it's a good idea to quote case law at this stage.

I'd agree, that being able to talk about your difficulties to someone like a Health Care Professional in your PIP assessment (which you are well versed in) is absolutely not the same as mixing with others face to face. I'll try to see if I can find more on this tomorrow.

About managing therapy, is this something that has been specifically recommended by your physio?

About dressing, then if you suffer from neuropathic pain, etc. then why does that change so you can later dress? I'm not trying to be argumentative, rather playing devil's advocate.

Yes, the exercise plan is 'prescribed' by the NHS Neurology Physio and her letter that she wrote me after my assessment and sessions in her clinic confirms this and was included, which also states that I must be supervised whilst doing them.

Neuropathic pain and fibro pain and spasticity are all helped to varying degrees by medication but all of these have side effects especially when taken together so I have to make choices on if/what to take at any given time, if that makes sense? Also many MS symptoms are caused by nerve messages 'misfiring' like crosssed wires, or blocked pathways and this can fluctuate a little throughout the day depending on other factors like stress, heat, infection, activity levels etc. The upshot of having all the different 'causes' of pain are that they are not responsive to the same meds and not always easy to work out which pain is what! I can only wear full fitting shoes with use of a shoe horn but can't always grip that so I only wear them when I really really need to - and avoid as much as possible because my feet are either over, or under, sensitive

Now I didn't explain all of that in the Dressing descriptor .... but they also seem to have disregarded the effects of fatigue, and of sometimes (very) low mood which I did explain... should I actually go into that much detail for an MR?

I agree that caselaw is probably too strong for a MR!

I was really not good on the day of my assessment either, my new MS drug is causing probs with blood pressure and that morning I had BP of 150/90 and was  shaky and headachey and had also had some negative family news so was not as focussed. Although she said I was bright, focussed and engaged.... hahaha that old chestnut.

Why do they use the stock phrases about meds and about lack of specialist input? If they are meaningless, surely they are just being lazy and doing a disservice to the whole procedure?

woollywonder

poppy123456 said:

Carrying items around the kitchen, including pots, pans, kettles and carrying food to where it will be eaten isn't considered in the activity. Serving food on a plate is included. It advises all of this in the guide i linked to above.

Thanks   So what I don't understand - in order to cook vegetables on a hob - you need a saucepan. Which needs water in it to start off, and needs to be drained at the end. So I have to move with my saucepan from the hob to the tap.....carrying hot vessels from a microwave to the place where you will serve it... needs items carrying around the kitchen... so how can they (DWP) say that carrying those particular things doesn't count?

(I think I'm just getting tired now lol, I'm getting too old for all this !!)

poppy123456

woollywonder said:

Yes, the exercise plan is 'prescribed' by the NHS Neurology Physio and her letter that she wrote me after my assessment and sessions in her clinic confirms this and was included, which also states that I must be supervised whilst doing them.

Does that take place in your home, or do you have to go out for the appointment? Only therapy done in your home is considered. Another thing they look at is if you didn't have that therapy is your condition likely to deteriorate? If so then why must you be sepervised? What happened the last time you weren't supervised?

I don't really know why carrying items around the kitchen isn't considered. It's the same as toilet needs. It doesn't take into consideration climbing stairs or getting to the toilet. It only takes into consideration getting on and off the toilet and cleaning yourself afterwards.

I know you said you have that link above saved but have you read it?

woollywonder said:

Now I didn't explain all of that in the Dressing descriptor .... but they also seem to have disregarded the effects of fatigue, and of sometimes (very) low mood which I did explain... should I actually go into that much detail for an MR?

Yes you should! Although you said that you gave real world examples when you filled out the form. Even so, it will depend on what information you gave and how much detail you went into for those examples.

In my opinion, you should forget the case law, even for Tribunal and concentrate on the reasons why you think you should have scored those points. Case law is complicated and unless you know exactly what you're doing you should be cautious. The Tribunal will apply the law correctly anyway, if you get that far. (likely)

chiarieds

I think you're getting there, & realise that extra detail is needed to explain the difficulty you have.

With dressing, I wouldn't be attempting to explain what MS is, it's rather how it affects you. The term 'neuropathy' is too vague anyway, as this would affect many claimants in many & various ways. Fine to mention side effects of your meds, but I have no idea what these are, as you haven't said. Nor do I know why you have to lift your legs up, & exactly how you do this.

Mentioning that your condition fluctuates depending on other factors is good, but are you talking in general about how this may happen with MS & fibro, or is this happening to you? I have 2 main conditions that cause pain as well, but it doesn't matter which one causes it, you just need to describe where the pain is, & in what way does it cause you difficulty with this descriptor. Does spasticity or lack of sensation affect your way of dressing. How long does this activity take you; how does it leave you feeling afterwards? How many days in a week do you struggle?

Mentioning using a shoe horn is great, but what is the problem with over or under sensitive feet, as you haven't said?

How often do you have a low mood, as 'sometimes' is also vague. How does such a low mood affect you, as again you haven't said?

If you have difficulty dressing/undressing, then do you have any problem washing/bathing?

In order to prepare a simple meal, what about the preparation of any veg?

About engaging with others face to face, a judge said, ''responding to questions from a health professional was not evidence that the claimant engaged socially with other people or would be able to engage with people she did not know well.'' So, you need to give a detailed explanation of exactly why you have difficulty with this descriptor. Again it's the when did this happen, why, what happened, did anyone see this, & how did it leave you feeling afterwards; the consequence of attempting/doing this activity. How often does this happen, etc?

woollywonder

Thankyou both Poppy and Chiarieds, I will consider the great advice you've kindly given when I write my MR,  I'm grateful for everyone's input