Is fighting fire with fire an effective strategy?

66Mustang

I hope this is OK to post as injustice, especially hypocrisy, is something that has upset me for a long time and I wonder what others think about it?

I like reading about whisky and I just read an article about a lady who got into whisky tasting. It went on to give some interesting facts, like how even though most people who are very into whisky are men, women are actually better in general at tasting whisky than men. It’s likely an evolutionary thing as they developed a need to be able to tell if food was unsafe before sharing it with children. All nice unbiased facts and stuff

However it then went on to say things like how men in the whisky industry are all sexist, men don’t allow women into the industry, men are always surprised if they come across a woman who enjoys whisky

I don’t know whether the idea of fighting against sexism by being sexist yourself is the right way to go about making the example that sexism is unacceptable?

I have noticed the same thing when it comes to other things like race. Phrases get thrown about along the lines “white people are racist” - by grouping people based on their skin colour (white) and accusing them of something (racism), are you not committing racism yourself?

I agree that these things are wrong - I never actually care if someone does something that society doesn’t expect them to do based on their characteristics, I don’t even mention it because I’m actually more interested in the topic involved, than trying to bring politics into it!

I think what I'm trying to say, is, if I wanted to stand up for a group of people: I would probably do that by defending/praising that group, rather than attacking an "opposite" group

But trying to see the other side, maybe I am wrong - perhaps trying to prove the point that something is bad, by committing the very thing that is bad, is an effective way of getting the message across?

I’d be interested to hear peoples thoughts

rubin16

One thing I hate in life is when people judge another person because they are in that group of people. (if that makes sense)

For example "all woman etc whether they are being sexist or racist

People are individuals and we should never just judge a person, as everyone is different with their own personality and should never be judged apon until you know that person.

I personally treat everyone with respect and treat everyone the same regardless as at the end of the day we are all human, and should work together not hate one another or judge one another.

66Mustang

@rubin16

I agree with you and I do the same

The main question I was getting at though is that I don't think that discriminating against people is an effective way to eradicate discrimination? I am happy to listen to the opposite view and be proved wrong, though!!

Albus_Scope

I always say "Treat every stranger like a friend, until they give you reason to think otherwise" So I tend to try to educate instead of going for the easier option of name calling. 
The internet has made it so easy just to throw names around, instead of talking things through like we used to do. Though I admit I have made sweeping generalisations in the past, but it's something I've been working on stopping in recent years.

66Mustang

@Albus_Scope

Yeah I am with you on treating people as individuals and stuff in general

I think maybe I worded my thread wrong as what I was enquiring about is those who employ discrimination as a tactic in their fight against discrimination, if that makes sense?

As someone who takes everyone as they find them, I don't like being labelled as - say - racist, or sexist, just because of the fact that I am white or male 

MW123

66Mustang said:

@Albus_Scope

Yeah I am with you on treating people as individuals and stuff in general

I think maybe I worded my thread wrong as what I was enquiring about is those who employ discrimination as a tactic in their fight against discrimination, if that makes sense?

As someone who takes everyone as they find them, I don't like being labelled as - say - racist, or sexist, just because of the fact that I am white or male 

The use of discrimination as a tactic to fight against discrimination can be a double-edged sword. A more constructive approach might be to focus on specific instances or behaviours, rather than making sweeping generalisations about entire groups. For example, instead of labelling all white men as racist and sexist, it's more productive to discuss concrete examples of discrimination and advocate for policies and practices that promote inclusivity. This way, the conversation stays focused on solving the problem, rather than casting blame on an entire category of people.

66Mustang

@MW123

Thanks for the response

It's very encouraging to see someone who sees it as a potential problem and I thought your response was interesting

I am totally in agreement with the idea of looking for a solution, rather than looking for a group to blame

As a somebody who does not consider themselves to be racist or sexist, and who is actually a member of at least 3 minority groups so I know how it feels to be part of a minority, I find myself naturally on the same wavelength as people who are fighting against discrimination...However when activists then go on to discriminate against me - almost as if to say I am the problem or I am some sort of "enemy" - it almost makes me want to convert away from being on their side of the argument, although I am yet to

Concrete examples are good in my view, as well - if someone wanted to point out any behaviour from me which did label me as "something"-ist, I would happily want to hear them so that I could correct my behaviour!

MW123

66Mustang said:

@MW123

Thanks for the response

It's very encouraging to see someone who sees it as a potential problem and I thought your response was interesting

I am totally in agreement with the idea of looking for a solution, rather than looking for a group to blame

As a somebody who does not consider themselves to be racist or sexist, and who is actually a member of at least 3 minority groups so I know how it feels to be part of a minority, I find myself naturally on the same wavelength as people who are fighting against discrimination...However when activists then go on to discriminate against me - almost as if to say I am the problem or I am some sort of "enemy" - it almost makes me want to convert away from being on their side of the argument, although I am yet to

Concrete examples are good in my view, as well - if someone wanted to point out any behaviour from me which did label me as "something"-ist, I would happily want to hear them so that I could correct my behaviour!

One of my oldest friendships is with a black individual, while I am white. When discussions about Black Lives Matter and white privilege emerged, it created tension between us. I was saddened by the thought that our friendship might be called into question. However, instead of allowing the tension to linger, we chose to engage in open and honest dialogue. Through listening, understanding, and empathy, we were able to deepen our connection and strengthen our bond. 

From my perspective, when navigating accusations of racism or sexism, seeking total agreement on every topic shouldn't be the primary objective. Instead, the focus should shift towards fostering relationships, particularly with groups, where the core values of mutual respect, understanding, and empathy take precedence.

66Mustang

@MW123

That's lovely to hear and I think spot on when it comes to relationships with individuals, because you can communicate with them and understand each other, and like you say hopefully everyone will develop more empathy

Just personally, I prefer taking the opportunity to enlighten myself whenever this comes up, I think that's one of the main reasons for existing and I am always up for being questioned as I believe that's an effective way of learning both on the part of myself and the other person

With an organisation or public figure makes their stance known, it's hard for someone without much of a "voice", like me, to respond and turn things into a 2-way conversation. I can't really approach them to ask that they explain their rationale. Also, often any questioning - even out of curiosity - is seen as opposition, even though like you say the motive should not about "winning" some argument but just developing important qualities like empathy

MW123

66Mustang said:

That's lovely to hear and I think spot on when it comes to relationships with individuals, because you can communicate with them and understand each other, and like you say hopefully everyone will develop more empathy

Just personally, I prefer taking the opportunity to enlighten myself whenever this comes up, I think that's one of the main reasons for existing and I am always up for being questioned as I believe that's an effective way of learning both on the part of myself and the other person

With an organisation or public figure makes their stance known, it's hard for someone without much of a "voice", like me, to respond and turn things into a 2-way conversation. I can't really approach them to ask that they explain their rationale. Also, often any questioning - even out of curiosity - is seen as opposition, even though like you say the motive should not about "winning" some argument but just developing important qualities like empathy

It can be daunting to respond to or engage with a prominent organisation or public figure, especially when it feels like they have a much louder megaphone than you do. And you're right, even genuine questions or curiosity can be misinterpreted as opposition or criticism, which can lead to defensiveness rather than constructive dialogue.

This is a common challenge in today's digital age, where social media platforms can amplify certain voices while making it difficult for others to be heard. It's essential to recognise that simply because someone has a larger following or platform doesn't mean their views are inherently more valid or deserving of less scrutiny.

Although direct interaction with the organisation or public figure might not be feasible, you can still express your views by crafting a considerate email or posting on your social media channels, blogs, or in online forums. Acknowledge their standpoint while respectfully sharing your own thoughts and emotions. This allows you to participate in the conversation and connect with like-minded individuals who are open to discussing the matter further.

WelshBlue

Unfortunately we can become labelled on our looks.  I'm a Trojan Skinhead aka Rude Boy.  

The look comes from skinheads embracing Jamaican/ Ska music ... but I've had Asian people be abusive/violent or worse, shepherding their kids away from me.  Their ignorance to my looks used to worry me, now I feel sorry for them

I've been attacked for being white, for being Welsh and for being me.  I don't hate the cultures/nationalities, just the perpetrators

I identify as a Welsh Feminist Trojan.  Colour doesn't come into the equation for me.  Just mutual respect