PIP CONSULTATION - hopefully an advice/resource thread to filling it out (please read b4 deciding)

apple85

So back in sept 2023 we had the dwp WCA consultation.

we were given only 7 weeks to respond and less than 1500 ppl/organisations filled it out

However amazingly even with that small number we somehow managed to wangle some concessions (aka dwp/gov conclusions weren’t the worst case scenario, suggesting, shock, these forms are actually read!)

so 8 months later we are about to be back here again (later today by the sounds of things) - this time for pip

its different this time though - last consultation with the wca was about saving money (via minor logic, it was cruel but there was at least 5% logic)

This time with the pip (if the newspaper stories overnight turn out being accurate intent by the gov) is not only cruel but highly stupid in many many ways (the first one being that sunak and stride clearly don’t understand the intended purpose of pip)

so once again I am starting a thread to encourage ppl to take time and fill out this upcoming constitution 

im hoping to post any guides to filling out that I find online and that also members will be able to unstitch the logic behind this (aka why this would be the dwp shotting themselves in the foot if their aim is to get disabled in jobs and to save money) - and if members do want to take part but are just overwhelmed put together a resource that can be copy &pasted(and adapted) from (bottom line is I’m happy to put in hrs on resources if it gets more ppl taking part but at the same time I don’t like wasting time)


I know many of you will not see the point of spending time filling out a form so close to a general election. However:
> the tories clearly want to announce future policy for welfare reform in their pre election manifesto, hence the rush (the disabled+welfare are being used as ‘red meat’ to catch votes from the public)
> An general election may boot out the tories but the vast majority of dwp jobs + manager positions (who aren’t elected mp’s and actually the ones reading the consultation responses) will remain in post
> that in mind if Labour get in then the dwp will report to them in-depth findings and we as the disabled have a responsibility to demonstrate in writing why carrying on with sunak/stride’s (quite frankly desperate and insane) logic would be extremely bad move for a possible Labour gov in it’s infancy 


I hope scope moderators and the more experienced forum members will understand my thinking for this thread and be able to contribute (pleading for helpful posts rather than the ‘this is a waste of everyone’s time’ posts)

thanks in advance

apple85

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cn0ry09d50wo

This quote is interesting:

” They are also considering whether people with long-term conditions and disabilities would need to be assessed at all.”

please note the following is just my personal thoughts and I’m sure 90% will disagree with me on this one

but the dwp and publics definition of long term disability/conditions has become foggy over the years (such as the denial of invisible disabilities such as autism & adhd are neither long term nor disability - ignoring the major impact they have to one’s ability to function in everyday life and the fact there’s no cure so long term by default) - if it wasn’t for that I’d be cheering this quote.

the thing I don’t think ppl consider is that even though ‘depression’ and ‘anxiety’ are officially classed as disabilities in the uk (hence the high estimate of uk disabled at 16m) I believe they defined as 2 subgroups - primary disability/condition or secondary disability/condition

by this I mean:

> primary where depression and/or anxiety is the sole disability and there’s no underlying condition or depression/anxiety was the original conditions that may of triggered other conditions (may of been triggered by a non(self) health related event)

> secondary is where depression/anxiety is a consequence or somewhat a predisposition of an earlier disability 
Health conditions which affect mobility, causes daily physical pain and has major impact in functioning successfully in society (some would say disabling) has major impact on one’s mental health as you’re dealing with more limitations and barriers to everyday life than the standard human, and in all frankness it would take a strong person not to be mentally affected by the things that limit being able to live the stereotypical ‘normal’ life

now I’m not a physicist but I imagine it’s significantly harder to ‘cure’ of depression or anxiety has been triggered by lifelong disability/condition with no known cure.
(it personally took me a long time to admit that my own depression/anxiety/stress were side effects of my autism (other conditions too but I count autism as my 1st/primary disability) and realistically I was never going to be cured of depression, more I had to learn to live with it best I can (but the best still impacts daily life))

Now I get politicians arguments that as depression/anxiety or hard to prove they are ‘easy to fake’ (a small number of non disabled do take advantage of this)

But many disabilities (even invisible ones such as autism) has a lengthy testing/diagnoses process that often requires a medical specialist to get an official diagnosis (a family gp is usually enough for a diagnosis or anxiety). Also when was the last time any of us got a pip award for just simply depression and anxiety?

Now I hate the idea of id cards but if after official diagnosis of a lifelong disability or condition you could apply for a ‘disability id card’ that would allow you ‘fast track’ a uc and/or pip claim that would save the dwp time & money and us endless stress 

(this is sort of being done in very small scale in some areas - for example some police have an autism id card scheme if you can send them official proof+details of your diagnosis)

or take it one step further a disability id card could lead to being able to apply for a variety of ‘minimum basic income’ which I think if received many may not apply for pip or uc altogether and would save the dwp countless man hrs and admin money and would have a knock on of more disabled at least trying work or volunteering


as I said many of you may see the above as a truly terrible idea and perhaps it is.

but the reality is that no party in power can afford to leave us alone. The reality is that there are too many rightly or wrongly on long term sickness and it’s getting harder for the country to afford so being 100% left alone is just not an option this moment in time.
Both sides will need to compromise to find a long term solution to this issue (and politicians stop this negative media portrayal of the disabled as that’s going to make it impossible for both disabled ppl & politicians reach their targets/ambitions)

this community needs to figure what price it’s willing to pay in return for a fairer welfare system (and suggest how we can contribute before the gov gets any ‘workhouse’ type ideas they seem prone to) - the current ‘force disabled into non existent jobs’ plan problematically sucks!!

apple85

From guardian live text (still waiting for official gov docs):

apple85

More from the guardian live text:

So both the tories and labour are intending welfare reforms - that is clear

we have labour who we know next to nothing of how they’d go about it

and we have the tories that seem to have no understanding of 2 major benefits (uc and pip) which *check* they were the ones to introduce to create a fairer, simpler working age welfare system (in short their memories are mush and they have no sense of reality at this point)


can we please get some sane grown ups back in politics!

JonnycJonny

It 'seems' there will be a return to a more 'medical diagnosis' centered approach - along the lines of DLA - for entitlement to longer term PIP awards - cutting out the need for costly assessments / reassessments for those with serious, lifelong or life limiting conditions. These awards would then act as a passport to the newly 'proposed' disability element of UC, maybe ...

Frankly it's the blind leading the blind at the moment. Bring on the election.

JonnycJonny

Apologies for the turn of phrase - no offense intended to those without vision

apple85

JonnycJonny said:

Apologies for the turn of phrase - no offense intended to those without vision

The blind are much smarter as a social group than the top brass of both major parties

i mean ppl don’t really consider the skills needed to use a cane or read braille and that’s even before you get to the successful partnership between blind person and guide dog which requires a lot of hard work

being led by the blind (or their guide dog) would be a serious improvement to what’s on offer

(but I understand your sentiment Jonny - just wanted to have a little fun in my reply)

Meg24

apple85 said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cn0ry09d50wo

This quote is interesting:

” They are also considering whether people with long-term conditions and disabilities would need to be assessed at all.”

please note the following is just my personal thoughts and I’m sure 90% will disagree with me on this one

but the dwp and publics definition of long term disability/conditions has become foggy over the years (such as the denial of invisible disabilities such as autism & adhd are neither long term nor disability - ignoring the major impact they have to one’s ability to function in everyday life and the fact there’s no cure so long term by default) - if it wasn’t for that I’d be cheering this quote.

the thing I don’t think ppl consider is that even though ‘depression’ and ‘anxiety’ are officially classed as disabilities in the uk (hence the high estimate of uk disabled at 16m) I believe they defined as 2 subgroups - primary disability/condition or secondary disability/condition

by this I mean:

> primary where depression and/or anxiety is the sole disability and there’s no underlying condition or depression/anxiety was the original conditions that may of triggered other conditions (may of been triggered by a non(self) health related event)

> secondary is where depression/anxiety is a consequence or somewhat a predisposition of an earlier disability 
Health conditions which affect mobility, causes daily physical pain and has major impact in functioning successfully in society (some would say disabling) has major impact on one’s mental health as you’re dealing with more limitations and barriers to everyday life than the standard human, and in all frankness it would take a strong person not to be mentally affected by the things that limit being able to live the stereotypical ‘normal’ life

now I’m not a physicist but I imagine it’s significantly harder to ‘cure’ of depression or anxiety has been triggered by lifelong disability/condition with no known cure.
(it personally took me a long time to admit that my own depression/anxiety/stress were side effects of my autism (other conditions too but I count autism as my 1st/primary disability) and realistically I was never going to be cured of depression, more I had to learn to live with it best I can (but the best still impacts daily life))

Now I get politicians arguments that as depression/anxiety or hard to prove they are ‘easy to fake’ (a small number of non disabled do take advantage of this)

But many disabilities (even invisible ones such as autism) has a lengthy testing/diagnoses process that often requires a medical specialist to get an official diagnosis (a family gp is usually enough for a diagnosis or anxiety). Also when was the last time any of us got a pip award for just simply depression and anxiety?

Now I hate the idea of id cards but if after official diagnosis of a lifelong disability or condition you could apply for a ‘disability id card’ that would allow you ‘fast track’ a uc and/or pip claim that would save the dwp time & money and us endless stress 

(this is sort of being done in very small scale in some areas - for example some police have an autism id card scheme if you can send them official proof+details of your diagnosis)

or take it one step further a disability id card could lead to being able to apply for a variety of ‘minimum basic income’ which I think if received many may not apply for pip or uc altogether and would save the dwp countless man hrs and admin money and would have a knock on of more disabled at least trying work or volunteering


as I said many of you may see the above as a truly terrible idea and perhaps it is.

but the reality is that no party in power can afford to leave us alone. The reality is that there are too many rightly or wrongly on long term sickness and it’s getting harder for the country to afford so being 100% left alone is just not an option this moment in time.
Both sides will need to compromise to find a long term solution to this issue (and politicians stop this negative media portrayal of the disabled as that’s going to make it impossible for both disabled ppl & politicians reach their targets/ambitions)

this community needs to figure what price it’s willing to pay in return for a fairer welfare system (and suggest how we can contribute before the gov gets any ‘workhouse’ type ideas they seem prone to) - the current ‘force disabled into non existent jobs’ plan problematically sucks!!

You probably didn't mean to but you just decided that "simple depression and anxiety" is firstly, a thing, and secondly, innately curable. You also questioned the validity of someone getting PIP for "simply depression and anxiety" and then go further to propose that whole group of people be locked out od automatic rights by denying them the label of having a disability.

I'm trying to be polite to you here, but as someone with severe and debilitating "simple depression and anxiety" for over 40 years, and who is receipt of EDL & SRM for same - I must say it's quite upsetting to read...

apple85

@Meg24

i don’t have time to fully respond right now 

I was worried about giving the impression of throwing a certain group ‘to the wolves’ because that certainly was not my intent (I have so much personal experience with my own depression and anxiety that I don’t want to devalue anyone’s personal experience of it - and it certainly is never simple)

however there is no possible way to give automatic benefit awards to everyone who are experiencing mental health issues such as depression and anxiety  (even if there was a way to 100% prove they are experiencing issues - we know a small number fake it in order to get a larger benefit award which negatively affects the public perception of those who suffer from these terrible conditions) - it would just cost too much, reduce the workforce and encourage some with no mental health issues to take advantage of the system.
Depression & anxiety are difficult to prove 100% adding to their complexity 

There are 3 opinions going forward in terms of welfare:

1) automatic fast tracked award from any diagnosed condition (by go or specialist) that comes under the uk govs definition of disability (this includes depression and anxiety as I said before)
- I’m 99% certain this is financially unworkable

2) The gov disregards all mental health based conditions as no longer disabilities and won’t give awards for this regardless of severity which would millions in a difficult situation 

3) a compromise is found so at least some claimants with depression/anxiety can have a less stressful route to welfare/financial help
but as you said that would need 2 independent groups that differ from each other but how can this be done in a way that everyone sees as fair and balanced (it’s pretty much impossible)

I know there are some that all and nothing in terms of unity (none of us go through this fresh dwp hell or all of us do so it’s fair) - but if there’s a way for some with mental health issues to avoid possible dwp nasties in the future then I’d want that for them

when I said that those with depression/anxiety as their primary disability were more likely to be cured to those which it’s a secondary/knock on disability I was saying that not knowing the factors of what triggered the depression for either group

depression/anxiety only has a chance of being resolved or ‘cured’ if the underlying cause can been addressed/treatment

if the underlying cause is another disability (lifelong, no cure) that limits a normal life and/or causes regular pain then from personal experience I don’t think anxiety/depression ever fully goes away (you can contain it but it will never to fully erase it)

if depression/anxiety is your first disability then seriousness and possibility of a permanent ‘cure’ is probably down to what triggered your mental health to go downhill
some trauma can be expected to be treated successful but to give an example of someone I know I don’t think depression caused by the trauma of a losing a child will ever fully go
(also how mentally strong a person is effects the effectiveness of mental health treatments)


so im sorry that you are angry about my post and i really have been as fair as possible writing writing both that and this post

but in this current uk financial and political climate there’s just not the room for 100% unquestioned compassion - a balance needs to be found and because of that their is no perfect solution and someone will be unhappy


obviously I don’t know the background story to your own depression/anxiety nor should you be made to share that in a public forum but I am happy to chat and expand more via pm but I hope you see this post as not an attack with those who’s primary disability is mental health based but more trying to analyse the situation realistically and with more sensitivity than the average politician is

apple85

Guess I did have time

seriously meg24 if I’ve still upset you then please pm me as I’d like to clear things up as I don’t like the idea of someone being hurt if I’ve not explained myself properly
(I’m autistic so sometimes can be too blunt)

apple85

https://www.bigissue.com/news/social-justice/pip-changes-disability-benefits-system-dwp/

The only new detail that I could find is that the pip consultation is due to run for 12 weeks (ending the last 7 days or so of July - 23rd seems like a good bet if the big issue have their details right)

as mps are on summer recess 23rd July till a unknown date (my educated guess would be the first Monday of September which is the 2nd)

unless sunaks gone totally mad (and his mps have allowed him to survive) I doubt there’d be a January 2025 election as that would mean campaigning over Xmas which would push even hardcore Tory voter goodwill

i reckon the realistic latest election date will be the 19th dec (last Thursday before Xmas recess). Because parliament has to be dissolved 25 working days before an election (14th of November) and the 3 weeks of recess realistically sunak and stride at realistic max only have 8 weeks after the summer to publish the results of the consultation then would need to pass new legislation to actually change anything pre election….

……..which is 99.99% impossible imo

we will certainly have the pip consultation results some point sept or oct but any Tory policy changes would only have time to put on the Tory manifesto 

it will be up to the incoming government from whatever party to decide on long term sick welfare reforms - so the tories can continue threatening/scaring the disabled but they can’t really touch us pre election

apple85

We have published official docs:

https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/modernising-support-for-independent-living-the-health-and-disability-green-paper

im personally waiting for the benefits and work forum write up as they explain things in a thoughtful level headed way

Meg24

apple85 said:

Guess I did have time

seriously meg24 if I’ve still upset you then please pm me as I’d like to clear things up as I don’t like the idea of someone being hurt if I’ve not explained myself properly
(I’m autistic so sometimes can be too blunt)

I'm now under sedation this evening and can't think clearly. Will try to reapond tomorrow 

apple85

Meg24 said:

apple85 said:

Guess I did have time

seriously meg24 if I’ve still upset you then please pm me as I’d like to clear things up as I don’t like the idea of someone being hurt if I’ve not explained myself properly
(I’m autistic so sometimes can be too blunt)

I'm now under sedation this evening and can't think clearly. Will try to reapond tomorrow 

Meg - I’ve been reading a few of your other posts on the scope forum including the bits on your personal history but also on many things you have the right attitude (aka not sitting on hands waiting for things to improve)

I think everyone on this forum wants there to be zero casualties to any new dwp policy but there are some that are easier in get in a ‘life raft’ than others (but it’s of upmost importance to help those being targeted in the dwp most direct line of fire so to speak - just need to figure out how)

I really would like to speak to you via pm Meg as there are some things I don’t personally want to post on a public forum but privately is different 

I will hold my hand up and say in my original post I did simplify some things to far (and there should of been lots and lots of footnote) - if I had time to write things up in complex (and thorough) details that post would of taken weeks to write

but I also understand the need to save one’s self as a priority and at times you accidentally knock over others trying to do so and don’t go back to help them up - it’s a form of human weakness

At least we agree that many of our politicians need an education on disability and even their own policies

apple85

From the daily mail (and I’m honestly shock they wrote this):

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13362399/disabled-carers-rishi-sunak-monthly-benefit-payments-vouchers.html

sunak and co have focused very intense attacks on the disabled he past 6-12 months but it really feels like they’ve gone too far this time and many public aren’t buying the propaganda on the disabled sunak + co are serving out

this is an opportunity for the disabled community to launch a counter (verbal based) ‘blow’, and even better we can rely on fact rather than fiction!


edit: hilarious that the daily mail are having to use quotes from 18 year old college students to find supporters of this fiasco!

Amaya_Ringo

I would like those eighteen year olds to have a serious conversation with disabled students on campus. It's concerning when young people exhibit ableist and ignorant opinions, because they'll probably translate that into how they treat disabled people when they enter work, and that is not going to make disabled employability easier. 

I filled in the consultation already, because all the stress stopped me from sleeping last night. I agree it's important every disabled person or advocate who can, does. It will go into informing welfare decisions going forward. If people can make their views strongly heard it may make a difference.

I have taken them to task throughout on their inability to understand and adequately support autistic people and the constant onslaught we live under while they do nothing.

Vouchers are a disgusting and demeaning suggestion that will also make disabled people visible targets in shops or public places. One of grants for amendments are great, ON TOP OF PIP, not instead of. How can fitting a lift, say, mean that a person no longer needs any support? A catalogue of equipment - don't be silly. The government don't know what disability support is needed, and it just creates bureaucracy. Receipts? Do they think disabled people can afford to buy equipment and then wait months for the DWP to reinburse it? What if the DWP people decide it's not a valid disability aid? It will be people in offices, not medical professionals, who make that call. And what if you need something that is not on the GP's list? 

And the idea that a GP should have to write a letter. I thought that was now not a thing, because government didn't trust GPs to honestly render their patients' situations. But who has seen the same GP regularly for the last few years? And what about conditions like autism that don't require regular GP appointments? I have a clinical medical diagnosis from an expert, not a GP - is that now invalid because it doesn't include a shopping list?

I think either Sunak and Stride don't understand how the PIP process is for disabled people...or they are banking on the fact most non-disabled people don't know and thus will think all this sounds shiny. Like those college kids, who I hope never find themselves on the other side of the disability debate. 

Becky93

There's a lot of spin, but reality is most the proposals wouldn't work, and of course they're bad for people. This idea of doing away with fit notes and replacing it with a system done by DWP Health Professionals is laughable to anyone with experience of the DWP Health Professionals, you will just end up with more costly tribunals. Even aside from incompetence, it's unrealistic to think any health professional is an expert in every condition, which is exactly why the system has no chance of working, a doctor can refer you to a specialist, what will their health professionals do?

The idea that mental health conditions don't face an increased costs is straight up untrue in many cases too. And any attempt to change to vouchers or whatever is just a brazen attack to cut back as you can guarantee that even if you demonstrated higher costs the DWP would fight tooth and nail to get out of paying towards them. It would also just create a new system of bureaucracy in itself.