Changes to PIP

AndrewHall

Jimm_Scope said:

I will say, one of the suggestions was the as follows:  Instead of giving you money upfront you will have to buy things related to your disability then send the receipt to the DWP to reimburse (if they decide it's worthy). 

Such a thing would also need an appeals process too.

The DWP is already months and months behind on PIP and PIP appeals. Can you imagine if they had to process millions of receipts, and the appeals for them? 

Do the claims for eating and heating count for reimbursement?

deelee

I read a while back that government is considering using new AI to speed up the processing of all paperwork from benefits to pensions to taxes. Hopefully that will take a while before that is implemented. 

deelee

Wibbles said:

deelee said:

First, the government said that they were going to make changes with a big "shake up" of UC. Said they wanted UC to be only focused on people looking for work and announced that only those who had PIP would be able to continue to get this added
"Health Element" support on UC.  they also said that they would not put pressure on people who were disabled to start work or if they found work too challenging that they would not loose access to the help they already had.

So it is no wonder the number of PIP claims went up. Many had no idea they could apply for PIP on UC. 

Then enter the latest attack on PIP. Too many new applicants applied according to the government. When we have just come out of a pandemic that caused many to become disabled and because they advised people to apply if on UC to keep their access to the benefit. 

It almost feels as if their planned overhaul of PIP is an assault on disabled people in general. There are too many of you so we will change the name of it and scrap it to make it even harder to apply for and if you are lucky enough to get help it will only be for vouchers for things that will make your disability magically "disappear". 

The whole manner in which they have launched such a savage attack on disabled people is shocking. They make it sound as if disabled people chose not to work and that it is a life style choice.

Sending disabled people on courses or pay for medical intervention - NHS or private funded - is not going to magically solve anything for the disabled and they know that.  Instead of giving money directly to a person to spend on what a persons individual needs as a disabled person are - is very demeaning to say the least.
Almost not recognizing we are human beings. Human dignity? Compassion?
Zero for the disabled. 

Not to mention that we already are being left to dwindle on long waiting lists or already have gone private for what we need.

Not to mention the humiliating processes they put us through already.

It also seems the government think that there are loads and loads of jobs to chose from as disabled people. 

That they can just pair us up with the perfect job as employers are desperately wanting to take on people with disabilities, when we all know this to be untrue.
Just as government discriminates against us to this very day, we are discriminated against by employers. Not to mention ageism. Being over 50 and disabled makes it very hard to get a job. My sister who had cancer and is 45 was trying to find work and she as told by the Job Center to leave it off her CV that she had cancer and her age. 
So as a disabled person, do you think they would advise us to do the same? 

It strikes me that it cant be legal for the government to change the rules to make it harder for disabled people and to constantly re define what is a disability and what is not - such as mental health. Any mental health is a serious life debilitating disability. 

Surely it goes against our human rights and I fear the outcome of what it will do to all disabled people - the harm it will cause. Surely homelessness or worse. 

If these new changes go ahead, regardless of who ends up running the country,
perhaps all 3 million of us, should consider what are our legal rights in order to challenge the hostile new changes that they want to bring about. 
They should be protecting us. 

This is surely wrong and indeed discriminatory against disabled people.

We will need to see what the outcome will be as the devil is in the detail as they say. 
I would really like to know what others feel. If any of their ideas actually end up becoming our reality, is it actually legal? Does anyone else know where we would stand? 

I agree with you - yes, but what next ?

Being shipped off to Rwanda for daring to be disabled ?

(There's going to be plenty of empty seats on the flights)

I applied for DLA in 2004 (and was given a lifetime award - despite only being 41 when my first payment was made) but on being transferred to PIP, I had to start again (although I was given a 10 year PIP award, 2 years ago).... so the government appears to be able to change the rules to fit themselves.......

@Wibbles What next, I agree is the challenging part....it is so frustrating that they can change the rules like that.

But the language they are using sounds very discriminatory especially around mental health disabilities and I am questioning the legality of it, when there has been so much progress since PIP replaced DLA in terms of medical conditions. I just wondered if this type of deliberate change of wording in order to exclude some disabled people would actually be legal? 

Of course we will have to wait and see what happens.....as many have said here,  it will all take time and maybe a year away or longer. 

Amaya_Ringo

I also had a lifetime DLA and then got told I had to migrate to PIP, when they gave me 0 points and implied that I was fine now, apparently autism can be cured...

They can basically change the rules when they feel like it, through parliament. But then again, migrating everyone to a new system would take time and just dumping them off the system without any reassessment would lead to mass appeals and all of this means paying staff to process it. DWP have promised AI will never have the final say on a claim, so that means PEOPLE. Which means a large bill probably much higher than keeping things as they are right now...

There's a reason it's taken this long to migrate people from DLA to PIP. It's money, time and effort.

I think conflating different kinds of benefits and benefit fraud is also as unhelpful as the govt conflating them. PIP fraud is very very low. That's the DWP's own figures. There aren't many people claiming it fraudulently.

JasonRA

As far as I can tell these PIP changes the Tories are proposing all depend on whether they win the next general election. 

Will Labour be as hard? That's the million dollar question.

apples

Just caught the tail end of the conversation with Mel Stride on LBC, but something about workwell, which is going to start in October this year and to get people back into employment and of benfits

If anyone heard the interview i would be interested in what it means for people like myself claiming for MH

JasonRA

And I quote from a Twitter post -

"This morning Conservative MP and Secretary of State for Work and Pensions Mel Stride said that GPs will no longer determine whether a patient gets a sick note, and that WorkWell will make the assessment. Who is WorkWell? After a quick search online:  WorkWell is a series of partnerships across the country delivering a service  They will evaluate 59,000 disabled people, and people with health conditions  £57 million will be allocated to 15 areas  One example of this is a contract issued by Greater Manchester Health Authority for a 2 month contract. It was given to the firm PWC for £91k This model will be replicated across the country So instead of your GP determining whether you, their patient, are well enough to work, or not. Various private firms will be paid to make these assessments"

The Tories seek to privatize Sick Notes basically and make it far harder to claim out of work benefits. Again does this all hinge on whether they win the election of not or is this going through now? 

deelee

JasonRA said:

And I quote from a Twitter post -

"This morning Conservative MP and Secretary of State for Work and Pensions Mel Stride said that GPs will no longer determine whether a patient gets a sick note, and that WorkWell will make the assessment. Who is WorkWell? After a quick search online:  WorkWell is a series of partnerships across the country delivering a service  They will evaluate 59,000 disabled people, and people with health conditions  £57 million will be allocated to 15 areas  One example of this is a contract issued by Greater Manchester Health Authority for a 2 month contract. It was given to the firm PWC for £91k This model will be replicated across the country So instead of your GP determining whether you, their patient, are well enough to work, or not. Various private firms will be paid to make these assessments"

The Tories seek to privatize Sick Notes basically and make it far harder to claim out of work benefits. Again does this all hinge on whether they win the election of not or is this going through now?

@JasonRA , thanks for sharing this. I agree with you that it sounds like they are steamrolling ahead with this even though they say it is a pilot. I do wonder too if this does hinge on the next elected government or not.

I have read in online newspaper articles that many are questioning the legality of these steps they are taking because if someone is still able to find their finding unfair and able to object they will end up wasting much money on going to tribunals and I would think medical evidence would certainly need to be submitted in these cases. 
It would end up costing a lot of money. Hopefully the next government would still be able to amend this to include letters from GPs?

AndrewHall

To be honest, it is pointless worrying about what Tories or Labour will do. Our rights as people with disabilities is enshrined in the Hunam Righs Act, and no one can change that.

Jimm_Alumni

AndrewHall said:

To be honest, it is pointless worrying about what Tories or Labour will do. Our rights as people with disabilities is enshrined in the Hunam Righs Act, and no one can change that.

While I'd say people should try to avoid worrying too much over this, I think we can certainly be concerned about the rhetoric around all this. 

Any Act in parliament can be overruled by future Acts, or an Act rescinded, simply through a parliamentary majority.

Now, the Human Rights Act would be a difficult one to overturn given how many on all sides of the Commons support it, but the rhetoric is concerning. 

Wibbles

JasonRA said:

And I quote from a Twitter post -

"This morning Conservative MP and Secretary of State for Work and Pensions Mel Stride said that GPs will no longer determine whether a patient gets a sick note, and that WorkWell will make the assessment. Who is WorkWell? After a quick search online:  WorkWell is a series of partnerships across the country delivering a service  They will evaluate 59,000 disabled people, and people with health conditions  £57 million will be allocated to 15 areas  One example of this is a contract issued by Greater Manchester Health Authority for a 2 month contract. It was given to the firm PWC for £91k This model will be replicated across the country So instead of your GP determining whether you, their patient, are well enough to work, or not. Various private firms will be paid to make these assessments"

The Tories seek to privatize Sick Notes basically and make it far harder to claim out of work benefits. Again does this all hinge on whether they win the election of not or is this going through now? 

All that I can say is I am glad that I am now old - they can't expect someone in their 60's with no mobility, rotator cuff shoulders, poor memory - poor toilet control (peeing and pooing), can't speak or write (All from a 34 year old brain injury) - But with 40 years work behind them to RE-start work - OR CAN THEY ?

AndrewHall

Wibbles said:

JasonRA said:

And I quote from a Twitter post -

"This morning Conservative MP and Secretary of State for Work and Pensions Mel Stride said that GPs will no longer determine whether a patient gets a sick note, and that WorkWell will make the assessment. Who is WorkWell? After a quick search online:  WorkWell is a series of partnerships across the country delivering a service  They will evaluate 59,000 disabled people, and people with health conditions  £57 million will be allocated to 15 areas  One example of this is a contract issued by Greater Manchester Health Authority for a 2 month contract. It was given to the firm PWC for £91k This model will be replicated across the country So instead of your GP determining whether you, their patient, are well enough to work, or not. Various private firms will be paid to make these assessments"

The Tories seek to privatize Sick Notes basically and make it far harder to claim out of work benefits. Again does this all hinge on whether they win the election of not or is this going through now? 

All that I can say is I am glad that I am now old - they can't expect someone in their 60's with no mobility, rotator cuff shoulders, poor memory - poor toilet control (peeing and pooing), can't speak or write (All from a 34 year old brain injury) - But with 40 years work behind them to RE-start work - OR CAN THEY ?

I remember some times around 20 yrs ago, I was sick but the Jobcentre insisted I should come in and "sign on". I got there and vomited all over their desk. I was quickly signed off sick.  They never tried that with me again.  

luvpink

Wibbles said:

JasonRA said:

And I quote from a Twitter post -

"This morning Conservative MP and Secretary of State for Work and Pensions Mel Stride said that GPs will no longer determine whether a patient gets a sick note, and that WorkWell will make the assessment. Who is WorkWell? After a quick search online:  WorkWell is a series of partnerships across the country delivering a service  They will evaluate 59,000 disabled people, and people with health conditions  £57 million will be allocated to 15 areas  One example of this is a contract issued by Greater Manchester Health Authority for a 2 month contract. It was given to the firm PWC for £91k This model will be replicated across the country So instead of your GP determining whether you, their patient, are well enough to work, or not. Various private firms will be paid to make these assessments"

The Tories seek to privatize Sick Notes basically and make it far harder to claim out of work benefits. Again does this all hinge on whether they win the election of not or is this going through now? 

All that I can say is I am glad that I am now old - they can't expect someone in their 60's with no mobility, rotator cuff shoulders, poor memory - poor toilet control (peeing and pooing), can't speak or write (All from a 34 year old brain injury) - But with 40 years work behind them to RE-start work - OR CAN THEY ?

Being in your 60's is not old lol but who knows how low they will stoop with targeting the sick and disabled to engage in work related activity.
None of us can be complacent because anything is possible.

beckaroons31

The Government has entirely missed,some of the key factors in regards to P.I.P.
Missed or completely chose to ignore them?
 It is possible to claim P.I.P whilst working.
Because this payment is to help with daily living costs,and centered around the stability of your condition,there is no threshold on hours worked,or having to even inform DWP of starting work,if only P.I.P is claimed.
With the Government's flawed thinking,those who are able to work and claim P.I.P,with what the Government has put forward in reference to reform,for example stopping cash payments.
In theory could it not have the opposite effect?
Those who are still able to work,but also rely on P.I.P in order for them to do so.
Without that payment and not having enough to live on,decide to stop working,and claim not only whatever version of P.I.P existed at that time,but also claim other benefits that they would be entitled to.

Which brings me to my next point,the Government is regarding long term conditions/disabilities as consistently remaining the same and being stable,as the day they were diagnosed,whereas in reality,and I'm sorry to say,as we all very well know here,the majority will unfortunately deteriorate significantly over time.
The proposal of vouchers or reimbursement of adaptions made,shows just how out of touch the Government is,the idea of us paying for said adaptions,and then proving it,for a reimbursement.
Many of us had to layer up clothing,the Winter just gone,just to stay warm,instead of putting heating on!
The choice was heating our homes or Shopping?As we couldn't do both.
Let alone pay for adaptions or aids.

beckaroons31

How the Government and DWP view and treat people with Mental Health Conditions,is appalling in my opinion.
Was it not that long ago,that they were asked to come up with a solution,to help ease anxiety,and combat further Mental Health deterioration,in regards to our Welfare system?

Which I think?Came as a result of Coroners speaking up about direct correlation between a person taking their own life or self harming in certain individual cases,inwhich having to make a claim,or attend a face to face assessment etc,and all that goes with it,was so devastating to that persons Mental Health,that it was the PRIMARY Cause in their Death.

Their Solution:
Send out decision letters,review letters,refusal letters in White envelopes as opposed to the Brown envelopes,as the anxiety caused by the Brown Envelopes,was overwhelming!
It wasn't the anxiety over not being able to buy food,keep warm,or basically live!
By stopping payments altogether or reducing them significantly,it was the colour of the envelope,problem solved!!.

Meg24

beckaroons31 said:

How the Government and DWP view and treat people with Mental Health Conditions,is appalling in my opinion.
Was it not that long ago,that they were asked to come up with a solution,to help ease anxiety,and combat further Mental Health deterioration,in regards to our Welfare system?

Which I think?Came as a result of Coroners speaking up about direct correlation between a person taking their own life or self harming in certain individual cases,inwhich having to make a claim,or attend a face to face assessment etc,and all that goes with it,was so devastating to that persons Mental Health,that it was the PRIMARY Cause in their Death.

Their Solution:
Send out decision letters,review letters,refusal letters in White envelopes as opposed to the Brown envelopes,as the anxiety caused by the Brown Envelopes,was overwhelming!
It wasn't the anxiety over not being able to buy food,keep warm,or basically live!
By stopping payments altogether or reducing them significantly,it was the colour of the envelope,problem solved!!.

There have been hundreds of DWP internal process reviews of suicides related to their actions, and those are only the ones the DWP will admit to, many more die with no clear evidence to link them, but we all know it happens. 

They are all obsessed with diagnostic labels, and are convinced we are all so desperate for one that we are lying to get one, which is an insane suggestion in itself.

There are also many of us who actively avoid falling into the web of diagnostic labels, but are still greatly affected by poor MH. I have been informed that I fit the criteria for a severe MH label, but I personally prefer to concentrate on my symptoms & how to manage them. I have over 30 yrs of NHS treatment evidence of my MH, but no diagnostic label other than depression, anxiety & panic attacks. I would be denied PIP in this new regime despite relying on DLA/PIP for 16 yrs. The resulting loss of income would see me lose my home, my dogs and my car. In essence, everything that keeps me stable and alive. 

When I go, the coroner will be left with no doubt as to the cause, I'll make sure of it.

beckaroons31

Meg24 said:

beckaroons31 said:

How the Government and DWP view and treat people with Mental Health Conditions,is appalling in my opinion.
Was it not that long ago,that they were asked to come up with a solution,to help ease anxiety,and combat further Mental Health deterioration,in regards to our Welfare system?

Which I think?Came as a result of Coroners speaking up about direct correlation between a person taking their own life or self harming in certain individual cases,inwhich having to make a claim,or attend a face to face assessment etc,and all that goes with it,was so devastating to that persons Mental Health,that it was the PRIMARY Cause in their Death.

Their Solution:
Send out decision letters,review letters,refusal letters in White envelopes as opposed to the Brown envelopes,as the anxiety caused by the Brown Envelopes,was overwhelming!
It wasn't the anxiety over not being able to buy food,keep warm,or basically live!
By stopping payments altogether or reducing them significantly,it was the colour of the envelope,problem solved!!.

There have been hundreds of DWP internal process reviews of suicides related to their actions, and those are only the ones the DWP will admit to, many more die with no clear evidence to link them, but we all know it happens. 

They are all obsessed with diagnostic labels, and are convinced we are all so desperate for one that we are lying to get one, which is an insane suggestion in itself.

There are also many of us who actively avoid falling into the web of diagnostic labels, but are still greatly affected by poor MH. I have been informed that I fit the criteria for a severe MH label, but I personally prefer to concentrate on my symptoms & how to manage them. I have over 30 yrs of NHS treatment evidence of my MH, but no diagnostic label other than depression, anxiety & panic attacks. I would be denied PIP in this new regime despite relying on DLA/PIP for 16 yrs. The resulting loss of income would see me lose my home, my dogs and my car. In essence, everything that keeps me stable and alive. 

When I go, the coroner will be left with no doubt as to the cause, I'll make sure of it.

I am just totally and utterly disgusted,at how cheap a life is to them,let alone lives as a plural.

Wibbles

I wonder whether they plan to stop at MH - Or will they try to continue with ALL PIP claimants ?

Ironside1990

^I'm wondering this as well, as I'm claiming for cerebral palsy as well as MH issues.

Meg24

Wibbles said:

I wonder whether they plan to stop at MH - Or will they try to continue with ALL PIP claimants ?

They seem to want to stop all help for MH and give everyone else vouchers or one off equipment payments for which they want receipts. The whole idea is a bureaucratic nightmare, like how on earth are they going to process everyone's receipts! It's madness and is sure never to happen. The only thing they can do is threaten to remove PIP entirely, which the Tories for certain will try to do to everyone at some point. 

That's why it's so important to fight theas changes now, even if you think you won't be affected immediately, fight for us now, and we'll still be here to fight for you when they come for you...