Permitted work for hours for unusual gig work
Hi, I've signed up with a gig work app which wants me to travel via my own means (public transport etc) to pick up and deliver cars, paying for the travel costs (except for in the car) and be remunerated a set amount per job, and I'm wondering what part of it should be considered working hours for the purposes of the 16 hour limit. The travel to the job? The travel back? Just the time spent inspecting and driving the car? Any thoughts gratefully received.
Tags - permitted work, exempt work, gig work, 16 hour limits.
Comments
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Hi @Jonathan75
Here is the DWP's guide which they use, see section 41212.
Hope this helps and please reply if you have any more questions.
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Straight to the law on point - outstanding, thank you!
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Heya @Jonathan75 and welcome to the community!
Wow, I see our regulars are straight in with the facts for you, nice. I just wanted to stop in and say hi. 😊0 -
You're very welcome @Jonathan75 please come back if you need any more advice - in the meantime, good luck with the new job!
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Thank you Flour, I appreciate it very much. Would you by any chance know which guideline deals with how to calculate earnings for permitted/exempt work peeps (contributory ESA/Support Group) who are doing nominally self-employed gig work, please? I keep seeing one rule which says 'gross earnings is earnings for those purposes' and another which says 'earnings is net earnings' and it's making my head spin.
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Hi Flour. I'm finding it hard to interpret DMG 41212 et seq, which I'll quote below. The reason it's an issue for me is that in my self-employed app gig job, some weeks I do no hours or fewer than 8, and sometimes the travel time to and from a job is, let's just say I got pushed over 16 hours the other day on one single day, easily, partly because my bus was delayed. So I figured I couldn't do any more work that week. Other times I've got stuck in traffic and I've gone over time. Most of the time is just travelling to and from a job, while sitting catching up with my reading on the bus/train or talking to family on the phone. It's very nervewracking booking a job and not knowing if I'll be pushed over or indeed if I'm entitled to do a bit 'over' and if so how much. Sitting on a train honestly doesn't feel like work. But somehow it is for the purposes of the Regs.
What frustrates me is that the DMG guide says
"[p]ermitted work
41211 PW is work done for less than 16 hours, or an average of less than 16 hours (see DMG 41213 et seq) in any week"yet either the 'average' has to mean 'more than 16 hours' or the 'less than 16 hours' seems to be a redundancy. I.E. either it's less than or it's not, right? So they could have just put 'less than 16 hours' and left it at that, but they didn't. So what's the purpose of the 'or an average of less than 16 hours'?
DMG I think then attempts to explain the answer to me at 41213:
" Where no recognizable cycle has been established, it is 1. the number of hours or 2. the average number of hours where the hours worked are likely to fuctuate (sic) a claimant is expected to work in a week1 . 1 ESA Regs, reg 45(8)(a)"
The citation, 45(8)(a) refers to a 'cycle' without explaining. I asked ChatGPT and was told, astonishingly, that it meant a bicycle!
The DMG attempts to give us more info
"41214 Where the number of hours a claimant works fuctuate (sic) and there is a recognizable cycle, it is over one complete cycle of work. This complete cycle includes periods in which the claimant does no work but excludes other absences such as holidays or sickness1 . 1 ESA Regs, reg 45(8)(b)(i)
41215 Where the number of hours a claimant works fuctuate (sic) and there is no recognizable cycle, it is 1. over the fve (sic) week period or 2. any other period to enable the average hours to be decided more accurately immediately before the date of claim, or the date a supersession decision is made1 ."But I'm finding it very difficult to interpret in my case.
If you or anyone else has any thoughts I'd be really grateful.
Thanks, Jonathan
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I don't think the amount of hours per week applies to someone that's self employed because how would they know how many hours you work? It would be impossible for them to know that. The most important thing will be your earnings, as long as you don't earn more than the maximum amount. As self employed you would also be expected to send them your earnings and expenses details but how often they ask for that, I don't know.
There's not really much information about self employed and permitted work.
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Thank you - I appreciate it.
In relation to how they would know, I think they could ask me to demonstrate my hours in any given week to be honest: I'm collecting and delivering cars, so the travel time to and from each job, and time on the job, can be demonstrated/evidenced for each job on a 'more likely than not' basis.
It's just that sometimes I don't work at all in a week, and another week I'll do a single job and because of unexpected traffic jams, with time on the bus/train it can take me over 16 hours just in a single day. Another week I might have the option of two jobs which could take me a bit over 8 hours each.
So I feel quite confused about how it all works with the average hours. Someone at DWP told me that 18 was the maximum if it averaged out, but it's not obvious to me how that interpretation itself follows the rules.
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Hi @Jonathan75
I think when you asked about what is the point of the sentence 'an average of less than 16 hours per week' it could look like this:
Week 1: 22 hours. Week 2: 9.5. Average of 15.75 hours. (an average of less than 16 hours per week)
If, as part of your job you don't work in some weeks then the unworked time to count towards the average.
Week 1: 30 hours. Week 2: 0 hours. Week 3: 15 hours. Average of 15 hours per week.
For a recognisable cycle this could be 'in theory' over any length of time such as highly seasonal work over a year
May to August 40 hours per week. September to April 0 hours per week. Average of 12 hours per week.
But somewhat relies upon the extent to which you could still be considered employed in the 8 months. Because your S/E its slightly different but some companies annualised staff hours over 12 months which effectively averages them.
With regard to gross or net earnings on the PW factsheet it says 'after tax and national insurance'.
I'm unsure about the section in your screen shot about the ESA regs and a 'cycle vs a bi-cycle' would you mind telling me what that's about so I can better understand the paragraph below?
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Given your uncertainties about the contract. I believe the best approach is to seek clarity directly from the gig work app regarding the questions you've raised to avoid any potential stress or financial complications.
It's important to feel comfortable and confident about the terms of your employment before you begin. Firstly, take the time to carefully review the contract provided by the gig work app. This document should detail all aspects of your job, including pay and remuneration, responsibilities, and how working hours are calculated. Pay special attention to sections about how your travel time and expenses are handled. Are your travel costs to and from job locations covered, or are they considered part of your working hours? Understanding these elements is key to knowing what you're getting into financially and time wise.
If any part of the contract is unclear, or if you have specific questions like how the 16-hour work limit applies to your situation (whether it includes travel time to the job, back home, or only the time spent on the task itself), your next step should be to contact the platform's support team directly. They're there to help clarify these points. This step is essential because misunderstanding these details could lead to unforeseen expenses or time commitments on your part.
Lastly, it's imperative to thoroughly investigate the insurance liability associated with your new role. While it's likely that insurance coverage is in place for when you're driving their vehicles, it's crucial to fully understand the terms before you begin. If I were in your situation, I would want to know exactly what's covered, under what circumstances, and whether there are any situations where you might be personally liable. Don't hesitate to ask for detailed information about the insurance policies in place, including any excess you might be responsible for in case of an incident. This knowledge will give you peace of mind and protect you from potential financial risks as you undertake this new role. Wishing you all the best.0
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