Genuine questions to ppl in paid work (or those wanting to start work) and also in receipt of PIP

apple85

(I’ve been thinking for many weeks how to start the conversation on PIP & means testing in a way that isn’t seen as scaremongering and I hope the following does so - mods feel free to reword parts that don’t sound so great)

Obviously their are huge conversations going on right now on how to create a working society that the disabled can take part in as well as welfare reform - one such discussion being if PIP will or should go means tested…..

Now I realise that many scope members can’t work and/or don’t want to work (and are therefore more concerned about other possible forms of reforms which I’m sure will be discussed on the scope forum closer to the 30th October autumn budget) - so this thread is more aimed at readers already in work or those considering or open to try work in the near to mid future.

For me the appeal of entering work would be to not only earn my own money but to remove reliance on esa/uc and eliminate the threat and worry that comes with the job centre, work coaches & sanctions, etc…….. (some would say contributing to society via paid work is a major peak - but in many cases those in work have less money incoming than not in work/fully on welfare…………….contributing alone isn’t necessarily enough for all disabled to still be able to pay their bills)

Being able to receive PIP whilst work is a huge attractive perk for me as it opens the door to be able to save for things like a deposit for a home, for ‘retirement’ and to build myself a safety net nest egg if possible.

For me PIP going means tested would be a total disaster (and on a selfish note, coupled with cuts from other areas outside of welfare likely in the budget would blow up all my back up plans and impact my long term future………….but off topic) - but I’m a single adult living by herself with a supportive family but still 30+ years to the state pension ‘safety net’…………………….there are so many PIP claimants with different circumstances that would be affected different ways and there have been some very eye opening semi related articles the past month

https://metro.co.uk/2024/08/10/cost-living-crisis-screwed-us-better-off-living-apart-21370660/

https://metro.co.uk/2024/09/03/want-keep-working-waiting-200-days-dwps-help-21531953/

So for those reading this thread who are working or who are hoping to work in the future (if health and conditions are right) I’ve got the following questions which I’m genuinely interested in what I’d imagine will be a large range of responses:

> if you are already working how would PIP going means tested effect your life? (Not at all, you’d no longer be able to afford to work anymore and any answer in between?

> if you aren’t currently working but want to in the near to mid future would pip going means tested discourage that aim or not really make a difference either way?

> are you 100% against means tested PIP in any form? (By that I means tested system based on yearly income and/or total savings/assets and threshold level in £’s that triggers means testing tapering/cut off point)

> if you aren’t 100% against the idea of means tested PIP, under what circumstances would it be ‘acceptable’? (Do you think it should be based on yearly income, total savings or something else, based on household or disabled adult financial situation alone, and at what threshold should it kick in and should it be tapered?)

(For example UC is based on both yearly income and total savings (both under tapering) but in terms of savings you can get full personal max level uc award up to £6k but then your uc amount gets tapered down till you achieve £16k savings at which point you no longer qualify - in comparison (and I may get a couple of things wrong here) child benefit (the 2 child limit one) isn’t tapered as far as I know (well there is the high income child benefit charge which is similar) but every 1 or 2 parent household that earns under £60k a year combined receives full entitlement of child benefit and isn’t affected by total personal savings or assets)

The reason why I think this discussion is important to have right now is like many I’ve been watching the winter fuel payment and have noticed the following observations:

• Labour higher ups haven’t done enough research of the knock on effects of making something ‘welfare’ based means tested
• Labour higher ups are significantly more stubborn on u-turns than the tories (so once it becomes policy that will most likely be set in stone)
• The labour mp’s at the early stage of this new gov are more worried about losing the whip than their conscience (this may change when we are a couple of years from next GE)

So it’s clear that labour need to have their minds changed/opened before it even gets announced so the disabled community has a responsibility to try and persuade mps and general public that certain ‘suggestions’ are counterproductive to labour goals

(For example - Kendall, making pip means tested likely want encourage into work and worst case will lead to an increase in uc uptake in disabled - my personal opinion only)

apple85

where I stand is that I’m majorly against means tested pip (it costs more for disabled to be truly independent and to me it’s ableist discrimination to make pip means testing - esp when things like married couples allowance and even the current ‘high earning’ threshold of child benefit exists)

The only way I’d find pip going means tested being somewhat ‘acceptable’ is:

• based on income only NOT savings and assets (some disabled have family member that are putting aside money once no longer with us to help secure their futures and take some of the worry - these ppl are already punished with IHT/CGT on point of inheritance (which will most likely increase come budget), let’s not make things worse by removing pip entitlement as well as uc over a relatively small amount of £16k+) - may be on a minority on this reasoning
• make threshold limit based on the disabled income alone, not combined with partners income if they have one (esp as many partners work and are also full time carers - means tested pip would punish them for loving someone who is disabled which is all kinds of wrong)…………unless the combined income is something like £150k a year before tax (living costs more for disabled)
• Threshold should be something like £65k a year earnings for disabled person which is tapered down up to £90k a year at which point you no longer qualify (once again disability costs in terms of aids can be so costly compared to our able counterparts that the threshold needs to be high

Reeves used the argument to labour mp’s yesterday that millionaires shouldn’t receive winter fuel payments - she can’t use that argument with pip as (cash rich at least) millionaires in their right mind would fill out the long PIP forms than put themselves through a hugely stressful assessment process!

(Honestly some disabled who clearly need extra financial help don’t apply for pip because of the attached stress with the process…………………….many pensioners are discovering that with the pension credit forms now!)

Scooby222

Apple85, I love your reasoning that no millionaires in their right mind would bother to fill out the long PIP forms and then put themselves through a hugely stressful assessment process! 🤣 Very true, the forms are a nightmare! I've never thought of the process as a form of practical means testing though. 😀

I agree that PIP should not be means tested, for all sorts of reasons.

ali12345678

Hi I work two jobs and get pip on top as I have a lifelong mental and learning dissablitys and health illness which will always affect me throughout my life in many different ways. I have been battling through serious lows,highs Lows for years ect and still going through today, Pip is means tested already it's not easy as it seams to get id be lost if I were to lose Pip or have vouchers ect as it would not help in any way but Pip should stay as it always has been not changed like the way government says it's not like the other benefits people can get you need medical notes and get tested through meating with an assessor and paperwork and phone calls to even get a chance of passing never mind scoring the points you need to Evan receive anything

Zipz

Hi @apple85 I think it is impossible to write this sort of post without it being "triggering", though I know you've tried hard 😃

I'm on PIP. There's no way I can work but I have savings. The DWP look on savings as income but never in my lifetime have interest rates delivered the level of income the DWP apply to a claimant's savings.

So, I live in fear of mean-testing and losing everything family put aside for me at great cost to themselves.

Taxing PIP along wcould be justified. I'd pay more a tad more tax but it would be worth it to be left alone. I live on my own but a partner's income and savings ought to be discounted.

I don't see the government saving much like this. And admin costs would be huge. If PIP is means-tested they'll go for an easy kill.

Zipz

Would I claim PIP if I were a millionaire? Maybe. Not because I'm greedy but I could play "Robin Hood". Claiming PIP is a nightmare but less stressful if you don't have to count on it to survive.

egister

The PIP check is obviously a creative reworking of nazi Nurenberg Laws.

Thankfully the Government doesn’t know anything about T4 yet.

Support for disabled people should be provided to everyone depending only on their health status and should not depend on their income and savings.

If disabled people are confident that their payments will not depend on whether they work or not, then this will be an additional reason for many to look for work. And we must understand that disabled people, due to their limited health, are objectively limited in their ability to work; they are objectively not competitive with healthy people.

luvpink

It would be completely catastrophic for so many disabled people if pip becomes means tested.

We all have the extra cost of living requirements needed to live with our disabilities and to remove it from some would be grossly unfair and discriminatory.

It upsets me when people even suggests means testing pip.

I would become destitute if it happens and I worked all of my adult life until I became too unwell to continue and I had to take early ill health retirement.

Why should I be discriminated against if this happens? 😓

Meg24

Unfortunately I think we are stuck with successive governments that look to other first world economies that don't provide anywhere near the level of financial support for disabled people that we do. If you think we have it bad you should look at the USA or even New Zealand to see how much worse off we could be.

They look at us and don't see why we should be supported, they look at the cost of doing so and see other countries that don't, and they reason that they can get away with doing the same. There's a reason why they've spent the last 20 years feeding the media stories about "scroungers and spongers" - they think that most people will only look at the money and not the person, and vote accordingly. And they're right.

Look at what Kemi Badenoch said this morning about maternity pay. They look at the USA where women are forced to go back to work before even their stitches have healed because there is no federal right to maternity leave or maternity pay and they only see the savings.

The political class needs to be changed at the roots. We had one chance a few years back, it might not have been the perfect solution, but that's the kind of change we need. I'm afraid we have been separated from the left leaning democratic socialist governments in Europe and the only place we're heading is not a good one.

Amaya_Ringo

I have a friend in America who has several disabling conditions but who has been stripped of her disability support and refused reinstatement several times. She's been fighting this for years, meanwhile she's reliant on family and food banks to survive :/

I am 100% against PIP being means tested, for various reasons, some of which already covered above. I don't see PIP as compensation for being disabled. I see it as a way of equalising my life alongside other people without my disability, so that I can survive and pay bills and have some level of independence.

I don't qualify for UC but even if I did, it terrifies me so much I would not claim it. I'd go bankrupt first. PIP has almost destroyed me emotionally and physically on a couple of occasions due to how it was handled, means testing it on anything other than earned income would be disgusting in my opinion.

I would love to be earning enough so that I could not claim PIP, could not worry about the future…could not be relying on relatives because I can't afford rent on my current income to go back to living independently, even with my PIP. I don't have permanent employment, temp contracts don't give you any form of stability.

This isn't a perfect system but it's the only one we have and I'm fed up with it being bandied about by govt as a PR exercise to get right wing voters on board.

New govt, same problem, unfortunately.