DWP reform - where we are now (on 8/3/25) & possible steps once gov makes official announcement
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He must be he's pushing for everything he lied they all lied as we speak he's bullying mps to agree to do all of this if he cared about wellbeing of uk citizens it would show he's worse than sunak ignored us in manifesto 7 months down the line have been awful starmer is the problem a big problem to the whole of the UK I'm sorry not will convince me and alot of people barely holding it together because of changed Labour changed alright not for the better
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What people on esa now will be targeted under exceptional circumstances??
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If I understand correctly @WhatThe, you should enter data in your tables starting from 2010, or even earlier. I have written my personal opinion here many times - the vector of infringement of the disabled is very old and does not depend on which party has the majority in parliament.
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first off thank you for this post, it’s much appreciated
In all honestly if we could bin all 650mps and start from stratch I would write that idea off (every individual has politicians they like and those they don’t and very little consensus)
I think ppl forget how different uk generations are from one another and how where you live (rural vs suburbs vs urban, consistencies, area trade, class born into, etc….. can hugely impact a persons views) - I’ve lived the majority of my life in rural farming hotspots that are traditionally Tory (the colour red is basically banned)
I think you told me before that yourself and your family have voted labour all your life - obviously I don’t know the history of the places you’ve called home but I’ve known a lot of ppl who have been unwaveringly loyal to the tories at every moment in history and the last thing I’d call them is wrong or stubborn for doing so as a lot of the lifelong voters are certainly not ‘blindly voting’, they have valid reason based on personal circumstances and yes they will defend their party mps but may comment to private circles when ‘a political decision is made that isn’t straightforward to understand’
Also I think for many on this forum, uk politics may have not attracted our attention in big flashing lights until the brexit referendum in 2016 (for me I was a student for most of the blair years and Iraq war kind of overshadowed everything else political for my age group, and in the brown and 1st half of the Cameron gov I was going through the toughest years of my life and a lot is a blur - the other thing is that I personally didn’t start having major issues with the dwp till about 9 years (I don’t know if where I used to live had an effect but welfare was still a safety net back the, the job centre still had disability specialists and you actually got a f2f with a qualified gp…….good times) - dealing with the dwp now if like dealing with loan sharks and the mafia………..you get your safety net but you almost need to sign ownership of your life over (I don’t think politicians release how many of us would ditch welfare the moment we can scrap by independently)
Look at the times we can leave certain our personal hot topics at the door I actually enjoy some of our conversations we have here - but it’s okay sharing opinions and standpoints but calling out someone else’s opinion you don’t agree with as ‘wrong’ (even if their reasoning are ‘crackers’) may not be the most helpful response - by all means share a viewpoint but some things are left best unsaid depending on recipient.
but your memory and knowledge of pre 2015? Is obviously better than a lot of us ‘younger’ members - if you remember and relevant presidents to any of the discussions here then please share (some younger members get easily disillusioned and hopeless - I think many would appreciate hearing past examples of when the disabled did not live up to the ‘easy target’ stereotype many seem to label us with, and realise it’s not a self fulfilling prophecy if you don’t allow it to be
lastly on the topic of starmer, I know why you stand where you stand and understand your reasonings - but I hope you also understand why some members have lost faith in him even if you don’t agree with their reasoning and think it’s too early for reactionary flips of opinion(Other members reading this let’s not start a ‘starmer, boo, hiss’ influx of posts - it’s getting a little repetitive across the forum)
@Whatthe - I think I mentioned to you before that even though I can’t support starmers public actions/decisions on things like welfare now I don’t think it’s as simple as the popular opinion of starmer fooling ppl or being dishonestI do think a lot is going on behind closed doors and something more complex going on - I think most of us can agree that starmer is not a natural (or career) politican and at the labour leadership contest a lot of us supported him
I’m having a huge problem stomaching some of his recent quotes, esp after reading his personal history and the simple opinion would be to conclude he’s just used his skills as a lawyer (doing and saying whatever you need to do to get the win regardless of whether client is right or wrong)
However something just isn’t sitting well with me nor adding up - we got leaks of quotes from over the weekend that portray’s him one way and then we today he makes a point of having a disabled mother and brother and that he understands how our community is feeling
Prehaps starmer has chameleon Oscar winning acting chops…….or multiple personality disorder
but You once told me something along the lines of you think he’s getting bad advice or someone else is making the decisions (anyone familiar with ‘yes, minister’ and ‘yes, prime minister’ knows that the pm is rarely the most powerful person in or working for gov……………Boris Johnson tenure is an excellent example of this) and just because you’re smart doesn’t mean all smart ppl are immune to manipulation
This is off topic for this thread but I’ve been doing a little reading up on Morgan mcsweeney and specifically ‘labour together’ and I’m happy to post my thoughts and findings (if you haven’t already done your own research)
I’m not going to lie- it’s best for the disabled community if labour can stay a viable voting option on the table
And if the possibility of starmer changing the direction labour seem to be going (and refresh’s both cabinet and adviser team) is possible then that would be my preference over starmer being ousted and/or labour becoming unvotable like the tories last ge
The country needs stability, but some of the proposed methods labour have presented so fair the costs are just too high and there are other ways
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Public protests/campaigns against prospective policy (media/disability charities & organisations/mp backing can make or break this strategy)So I wrote this 3rd bullet point for my list at the beginning of this thread (how to be proactive in the ‘time gap’ between disability green paper launch and legislation getting royal assent and implied in law - my estimate is with no opposition this will prob take a year (prehaps 6 months if it gets through at unprecedented pace as there’s a lot of ‘highly unusual’ things happening behind the labour scenes being reported right now - but I think the House of Lords will slow things down enough for 1st April 2026 being earliest realistic start date for laws being implemented)
But that’s if the gov hits on opposition and backlash and from media pieces I’ve read the past precedents, this is neither the first and last time a seated gov has gone after disability welfare in recent or not so recent (I think some of us may try to block it out as kind of traumatic being targets for gov cuts every few years). But the ‘positive’ news im getting is the government even when successful has encountered a ‘straightforward’ process
Lending to what many members are saying that this could take years before implemented
The other thing is things like public protests and campaigns are usually organised 9 times out of 10 by a ‘big hitter’ (such as disability charity, disability activist, etc…. - common denominator being that they have fair reach)
A lot of the groundwork I’ve already discussed on the post on bullet post one and bullet point 3 is a continuation of this (emails, letters, etc…)
Obvious a reminder to stay polite and not to say anything that sounds a threat (once all peaceful means have been exercised then you start thinking about more legal based action but that’s bullet point 4 and I’m getting ahead of myself)
So continue writing to both politicians and others ppl more outside of the box (some members have already posted some great ideas for ppl to contact and I’m already thinking of putting together a doc of non politician public (not private) contact details - once I’ve written 1st draft I hope members will help me expand it) and those good at writing share templates of emails with members of forum that are less able to write something from scratch but could edit to reflect their personal position
But also keep you ear out for online/in person protests and petitions and pass the details on
The other thing I’d recommend for those who can is to start familiarising yourself with human rights laws (those members who naturally have the skills to understand these could post easy to understand explanations)
As I said before I think many govs have underestimated disabled people, including in intelligence (presuming many of us dont have the ability to research and learn our rights so are less likely to take action such as mr and tribunals partly down to confidence in one’s own ability)
Last year about a half of pip applicants (about (and I’ve probably got the numbers worse but the percentage split should be correct) were rejected (about 330k) but only 10% of that figure appealed at tribunal (its well known many get disillusioned
Tribunals cost the dwp a lot of money a year as do those who take things further and get higher courts involved (I think defending high court cases cost the gov half a billion in the last year (or 3 years - the big issue reported the original story) and the dwp spent over £500k defending the Ellen Clifford case)
The point that I’ve got is that even if the dwp and treasury have got their sums right (I personally don’t think they have or have considered the additional costs from the knock on effects of the rumoured badly thought out ideas which I’ll wait till the official green paper is published before poking holes in policy) - if more claimants had the confidence to stand up for their rights (and this green paper may be what decides it as more and more disabled are saying they are unwilling to continue taking the hits) then that is going to eat away at those £6billion savings
(And just like that Rachel reeves next self inflicted ‘black hole’ will start to be born)
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apple, thank you always for your extensive and insightful contributions! I can't write like you can but know plenty about the first national reassessment programme. The sitting MP's involved are the best actors imo.
(that wasn't me - my parents thought votes were top secret and wouldn't tell us so I assumed they were Conservative 😄)
If I understand correctly @WhatThe, you should enter data in your tables starting from 2010, or even earlier. I have written my personal opinion here many times - the vector of infringement of the disabled is very old and does not depend on which party has the majority in parliament.
egister, like between the Welfare Reform Act 2009 and the appalling Welfare Reform Act 2012 ?
MW, I don't know what you do or don't agree with.
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Where i am in Scotland, you would need to keep bloody quiet if you voted tory! (My parents admit to voting for them once. But not to anyone else).
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Haha one of them was Scottish! Is this another Scottish quirk then ?
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The Unionist parties haven't had the majority vote in Scotland since the 1955 general election!
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What I'm scared of if these go in on September for wca will they reassesse people already on lwcra under new changes I bet they already printed the forms
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You are so wanted and needed your knowledge and passion is needed
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Legal challenges/class action suits against dwp security of state/government (most likely from human rights groups or disability activist organisations) - I’ll talk about this more in a future post (I’m not sure that tribunals/upper tribunals can come into play before a policy is implemented)Okay this is the said future post!
I’m am somewhat limited on what I can write here and the advice I can give
One reason is scope most likely don’t want legal action discussed on the forum (if any scope mods are reading this would they be open to the idea of an invite only sub topic area - somewhere to provide a safe place to list the stages of a high court case beginning to end and even tribunals (which can be the trigger to the dwp being ordered to change a specific point criteria for one of the activities on wca/pip assessment paperwork) - it would also be good to have a vetted list of contacts that are safe for members to reach out to to ask further questions - finding advice on how to start looking into high court suits against dwp is like finding a needle in a haystack and as a couple of members have already pointed some organisations which on paper look like they are safe places to ask for help may have different intentions and may even abuse the situation - for me it’s vital the disabled community have a reputable safe place to go that can offer safe recommendations and redirections.
Secondly I am not a lawyer nor have I studied law (or human rights) and neither is any of my immediate family (like a handful of others I’m not so if there may be ‘a friend of a friend’ resource personally - but officially I know no one in my real world well enough to ask the questions.
first bit of advice is to stay safe if you are thinking of taking this next stepSecond is even if you are taking action ‘alone’ make sure you have a support system
Thirdly the gov and dwp are not invincible (especially when they aren’t in the right) there has been many precedents of David ‘beating’ Goliath - see below for the most comprehensive list of significant tribunals and high court cases claimants have taken out in recent years
for example the ‘MM v Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (PIP): [2018] UKUT 193 (AAC)’ case is still resulting in claimants getting award backpay as I think dwp are still looking in thousands of claimants pip awards for 2016? to 2019 to check if this applies to each claimant (backpay potentially worth thousands)
so both high court cases and tribunals (from claimants appealing an award decision) can hugely benefit large numbers of the disabled community which is huge
now I know a lot of ppl wouldn’t even consider legal action for a number of reasons:- they’d need to oust their identity - yes there are ppl like Ellen Clifford that give their full name and who’s cases are very public but it’s also very common to just use your initials and your lawyers releases statements on behalf of the plaintiff
- There is too much to personally lose - right now many won’t launch things like tribunals as they could lose a lesser award worst case. If the itv leaks are true and aren’t changed by the gov then many of us may shift into the ‘nothing left to lose category’………………..right now only a max of 10% of failed pip award claims take their case to tribunal (some of the figure includes those successful in a low award but are appealing for higher). I know that law cases like tribunals are long winded and stressful but it sends a very loud message to the dwp (and appeals/court cases cost dwp millions to defend - something that looks stupid when evidence shows dwp observably in the wrong)
- You’d have to speak in court - I think whoever is defending you (such as lawyers) and/or advocates can do a lot of the heavy lifting in talking
- You have to be a plaintiff by yourself - you need a ‘lead’ plaintiff that will need to be ‘named’ but others can jump on (eg……. ‘AZ and others vs security of state for work and pensions’ is a possible title (please note this isn’t the name of a real case, just an example of what a case could be named)
so in terms of the early stages (pre high court stage), I think the stages are as roughly follows:- carefully read the government green paper (and things like human right laws) and consider if there may be a possible case against the dwp - much harder to argue than you think, I’ll give a example after these bullet points.
- Contact a lawyer or organisation and see if you do indeed have a case - now there are those that are pro Bono but those resources are limited, esp right now - many will require to be paid (for example the waspi woman crowdfunded £150K to fund their latest high court case) - this is where group action may be helpful
- Any case needs to get submitted to the high courts before even getting getting accepted as a case. The majority get rejected before the case officially reaches the high courts
Now for example (and this is currently a fictional example) if the gov was trying to pass legislation to heavily tighten pip/lcwra criteria (so 80%+ lost significant payments) and employers made clear they didn’t want to hire disabled people over fully abled (and there weren’t enough job vacancies for both groups plus add if the assisted dying bill gets its legislation passed with little change to its current form in the meantime - - - surely the 2 + 2 that is already being feared by many disabled would be a slam dunk human rights issue which would easily be accepted by a court right?Sadly I don’t think that would be enough (a lawyer or human rights specialist would confirm this) - however if an impact assessment was done and it was found that claimants with money cut and being pressured to look for work (which didn’t exist) were then getting pressured to consider state assisted suicide (and that law had no safeguards for ‘lifelong’ disabilities with no cure like Down’s syndrome………..and even things like autism (which would be madness for anyone to even entertain if they hadn’t been following the committee stage for that bill - mad times indeed) as a ‘solution’ - that impact assessment may be what pushes things over the edge on whether you have a legit case to present to court
obviously I haven’t been able to give a lot of info (and members/mods may want to correct a few points I’ve not understood correctly but touch wood it’s a correct intro to an intro on this very complex subject and once again stay safe0 -
Starmer was quoted saying he will cut the red tape can he change the law to make papers go through quicker there's alot of charities people waiting to see green paper then act see this is the only time I engaged with politics ever was the moment sunak said sick note Britain which i said a million times I been on esa 12 years so through all Tony Blair Cameron I was unaware but reading back on how many governments wanted to get thier teeth into this and abolish even read 2022 with pip changes announced by tories was found unfair on people with mental health issues but as starmer says he determined to get this through he treats everything like a court case end result to win at no matter what cost but he forgets he's not above the law he's wanted this for years him reeves rainer they want to ne seen as strong in the world of elites
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No its Jimmy
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Now I started this thread partly to be a place for members to figure out how they can be proactive (and a place to get help from others to help with that - every scope member will have their very helpful strengths)
I personally see my strength in creating resources which then others can use to help their own personal strategies and actions (I know some are starting early but some are waiting for the official green paper announcement and trying to use that time to refresh, recharge and be ready to take action)
So between today and Monday I have 2 things on my to do list:
Complete the 1st half of the following spreadsheet I posted before (I’ve done some editing and added additional columns)
the second thing on my list is to create a list of non politicians (or at least those retired and career changed) and their public contact details
( @Zipz I think it was you that was making a lot of good suggestions on what I should include - would you mind checking my first draft via DM once I’ve gotten round to doing so?)
After the green paper has officially been launched I’ll start work on highlighting that document but this time around I’ll be colour coding the highlights (and my highlighting will be subjective - those on this forum who have read some previous posts of mine will know that within reason I am sympathetic to the govs financial situation and ‘understand’ some reform tactics - though right now I feel they are abusing the situation and won’t be able to justify ‘attack’ in so many different areas) - this may not be posted till next weekend, I see how things goI’ll also ‘complete’ the above screenshot.
I may have an additional idea of how to create a further resource from the highlighted green paper but I’ll ask for thoughts back firstI’m also a Mac rather than pc user (Microsoft frustrates me) and a numbers/pages software user (free with apple products including phone & pad) and I believe I can save as a Microsoft file as well as pdf.
I’ve mentioned in recent posts that my health (both mental & physical) is not great right now and there’s a significant amount going on in my personal life (not dwp green paper related - that’s just the cherry) - I know I’m heading towards a major meltdown or (autistic) overload (or both). I just don’t know when it will hit (I’m being fuelled by pure adrenaline right now)My aim is to be doing stuff for the scope community right till the end of March/beginning of April and then take an extended break to self heal and start addressing my own personal life.
I hope that another scope member would be will for me to send editable copies of any of my files and keep them updated (if these are still being used by scope community after I’ve taken my break I hope to take a less intense role)
lastly it’s great so many are writing to mp’s and I’ve read some of the content I’m not sure pleading for a politicians empathy and trying to guilt them is the most effective writing tactic - you have to think smart and do your homework/fact check - counter their stance by explaining why a gov policy will not work (and even cost gov more money, not savings) and even suggest ideas that they can pass on and discuss with colleagues that may help the gov save face (that aren’t expensive to implement and works with disabled rather than middle finger them)
they say one of the signs of madness is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different resultAfter 14 years of the tories trying and failing to fix things (and actually making things worse both for disabled claimants and the treasury bank balance) the fact that labours first attempt to ‘repair’ things is too have another go with the same tired Tory strategies (that have always ultimately failed) and actually ramp them up
It’s obvious the Kendall and dwp have no new ideas and zero ability to approach something with outside the box thinking
they’d do worse contacting disability charities and getting their help putting together focus groups of intelligent disabled claimants (both past and present) that Kendall & co can talk with and involve in brainstorming solutions that may just be a win for everyone involved
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@apple85 I have nil vision in one eye and the other gets very tired and painful. I'm not the best proofreader!
Honestly, apple, please watch your health. Better to do a little than to burnout.
You've made nervous of "good ideas" but i was thinking back to when i was first awarded DLA for life. I had a Tory MP then, a "Wet", well to the left of Starmer & Co. It occured to me that many ex-MPs now sitting in the Lords might be worth a letter.
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sorry zipz, I didn’t know that about your eyesight - I thought to ask you as you had thought of some possible contacts I hadn’t
In terms of lords, that is a good idea but it’s too much for me to do on top of everything else (there are 842 lords) - I edited my mp numbers file (the apple version of excel - a free download on Mac products) to create a spreadsheet template to put lords details in if a member ‘fancied’ compiling that info
https://www.parliament.uk/business/lords/whos-in-the-house-of-lords/get-in-touch-with-members/
I’ll post the file link below
In terms of burnout - I do need a break but I for my own piece of mind I need to know I contributed everything I could before I do. It will be worse for my health in the long to prolong things.
There are members who are going to be able to come on this forum every couple of days and discuss these reforms from beginning to passed legislation and it helps them to talk about it - I feel like I need to step back and concentrate on myself and pop back occasionally to see how members of scope that I’ve chatted with are.
I don’t know if any of these docs will help members and lurkers, I don’t know if I’m wasting my time or if someone else on this forum has the drive to do something similar - but I need to know that I did everything I could to help other members in their effects before I feel okay to step away (the ocd in me - can’t step away from anything unfinished)
Even back in my student days I did huge loads of work in a short space so I could fully relax and taken a break in the last few days the the deadline knowing everything had already been done - I’m a bit stuck in my ways
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There are members who are going to be able to come on this forum every couple of days and discuss these reforms from beginning to passed legislation and it helps them to talk about it.
Is one of the members me? Dwelling on past legislation helps them somehow?
😶 well I did say I'm not good at explaining things but um um no. How strange! How worrying. Sorry for spoiling your thread.
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edit :
I just read the latest times article and I think I just crashed
Sound like as an autistic person I’m about 2 experience nil points x 2 (and they want to make it harder to appeal
I think I’m putting my doc ideas on hold till next week after the green paper has been published and those organisations with the knowledge can break things down and determine the likelihood and if the disabled community online step up the fighting talk or start ‘resigning to fate’
Obviously the times article was written to disillusion and kick the fight from the disabled community as the noise we were making was turning into an unstoppable tornado for this labour gov
Stay safe and take an internet break if necessary - the Tory top team obviously aim to go tough this week (Laura k this Sunday is going to be soul destroying isn’t it?)
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oh @WhatThe - just when I thought we cleared the air
I had no specific scope members name in my mind when I typed the above
I just know that some scope members like coming to chat every other day and as reforms will be huge news for months to come and will be probably discussed every day - lots of scope members do come on this forum to chat regularly as many ppl get comfort talking over things
Passed legislation- I’m referring to any future legislation that may be needed for reforms in the upcoming green paper to become law
I can’t continue to apologise every time you think I’ve mocked you specifically - I know I can be blunt but the idea of being knowingly mean is, well mean!
prehaps it is time to be selfish and take some time for myself (I’ve written a lot the past week - prehaps that needs to be enough until we know ‘form of the beast’ contained in the green paper (can’t fight till you know the form of your opposition)1
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