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PIP Tribunal decision
Matilda
Member Posts: 2,616 Disability Gamechanger
Had my Hearing today and have been awarded enhanced daily living and enhanced mobility; indefinite award.
Tips? Have your wits about you and be prepared for a grilling; and have thorough medical evidence even if it's not recent.
The only medical evidence I had was the DWP doctor's report and my GP's report from 1998 (both very thorough) when I was awarded DLA highest rates both components indefinitely.
The other two tribunal members weren't too bad - but the doctor asked some probing questions. Asked for how long I could walk (time). The Atos assessor asked that, too. Although of course PIP points are supposed to be awarded for distance, not time (or so I thought).
Doc also asked how did I know I could only walk 20 yards? Had I ever measured it? I replied no, it was an estimate based on experience of distances.
The judge, doctor (as well as the Atos assessor) all seemed to think that ability to drive indicates a low level of disability. Which is nonsense. What's the point of Motability, then? And many disabled people would be housebound without a car.
I only take two, maybe three, round trips of 12 miles or less a week; I find driving long distances tiring. I wouldn't advise any claimant to state that they do a lot of driving, especially longer distances.
Tips? Have your wits about you and be prepared for a grilling; and have thorough medical evidence even if it's not recent.
The only medical evidence I had was the DWP doctor's report and my GP's report from 1998 (both very thorough) when I was awarded DLA highest rates both components indefinitely.
The other two tribunal members weren't too bad - but the doctor asked some probing questions. Asked for how long I could walk (time). The Atos assessor asked that, too. Although of course PIP points are supposed to be awarded for distance, not time (or so I thought).
Doc also asked how did I know I could only walk 20 yards? Had I ever measured it? I replied no, it was an estimate based on experience of distances.
The judge, doctor (as well as the Atos assessor) all seemed to think that ability to drive indicates a low level of disability. Which is nonsense. What's the point of Motability, then? And many disabled people would be housebound without a car.
I only take two, maybe three, round trips of 12 miles or less a week; I find driving long distances tiring. I wouldn't advise any claimant to state that they do a lot of driving, especially longer distances.
Replies
It was the positive Tribunal decisions posted on here that encouraged me. I think it's usually worth appealing despite the slight risk that claimants might lose their entire award. 65% of appeals succeed.
I think what swung it for me was:
- medical reports, though old ones
- that I've had rheumatoid arthritis for nearly 30 years
- before DLA/PIP changeover I was on DLA highest rates both components
indefinitely
- that I had already been awarded PIP 11points daily living and 10 points mobility
Were you on DLA before and did you ask for the medical reports from then to be included in your PIP application?
Because of the Election, there are no MPs at the moment, only candidates. After the Election you'll probably hear from your MP.
Good luck with your appeal!
The assessor put down that I told her I could walk to a friends house in 2 minutes when I distinctly told her it takes me 10 minutes to walk there. This is with a walker as I can't walk at all unaided and I am still prone to falls even aided. This was backed up by a letter from my GP but totally ignored. I just hope the panel will see how difficult it is for me to get around not just on a nice carpeted office floor but outside with paving slabs etc. Did anyone from DWP turn up for your hearing?
No DWP rep for me. DWP don't attend many tribunals and I think that those that they do usually are for mental illness.
You could ask PIP helpline for copies of your previous medical reports and submit those to the tribunal as additional evidence.
Virtually all assessors tell lies! Mine put in her report that I took my bag off over my head and put it down on the floor. I never took my bag off at all!
I think it's partly because tribunals know that assessors are pathological liars that so many appeals are successful. Assessment companies are defeating their own ends by lying.
It's in the claimant's favour at PIP tribunals if they've been on long-term DLA. And if the DLA award was supported by medical evidence, which it would have been.
I had a doctor come to my address to assess me for DLA and DWP obtained a report from my GP. For PIP, I had to go to a centre to be 'assessed' by a paramedic and DWP didn't contact my GP. So it's nonsense for the government to claim that PIP assessments are more thorough than assessments were for DLA!
The Tribunal asked quite a lot about my indoor walking (in shops, etc) whereas mobility points are supposed to be for walking outdoors.
Disability Rights have a PIP appeals section on their website which is worth reading.
Matilda good luck for the future. Have a good rest tonight you deserve it after what you've been through....x
I get the distinct impression that Tribunals are not happy about indefinite DLA high rate awards, backed up by medical evidence, being downgraded by assessors and DWP. Tribunals know that the lower assessments are made on spurious evidence just to save bucks.
I am really pleased for you Matilda, well done!! it all paid of for you, now you need to give yourself a little treat :-) Congrats xxx
I had some hazelnut chocs earlier as a little reward
Strangely they asked me about driving?
Anyway great positive outcome
Thank you.
Even Tribunals seem to think that if you can drive then you can't be very disabled. But severely disabled people have been driving for years - otherwise, many would be housebound.
DWP admits MR are rigged,the DWP have as good as admitted that MR are a sham.In response to a recent freedom of information query,the DWP revealed that they have a target of upholding the original decision in 80% of all MR requests. 63% are been over -turned.and goes on to say -So,no matter what the decision is on your initial claim,and no matter how utterly you are turned down at the MR stage,don't lose heart ,you have a very good chance indeed of winning your appeal.
Voting soon ,I can't wait,disabled folks should not be put through this terrible ordeal,I've lost half a stone with all the worry.
Thank you.
MRs are just to rubber stamp the first case worker's decision, with a few exceptions for the sake of form. The jokers force people to go on to tribunals. Tribunals are so disenchanted that cases reach them that should never have got that far so they are sympathetic to claimants and allow their appeals.
Despite all the stress, unfortunately I haven't lost any weight
Hope you don't have to wait too much longer for a date.
@Matilda everyone noticing how drawn I have become,so weighed myself , shocked I'd lost so much weight,I only weighed 7 stones 4 lbs to begin with.Last phone call from DWP told them never ring me again,that I've had enough of them.Have got brown letter syndrome now,(if there is such a thing ,know I've got it)
The Benefits advisers on Scope site have been without exception the best !!!!!!!
But the doctor did pick up my reply to the assessor about for how long I could walk. Doc thought that length of time someone can walk is relevant, whereas PIP regulations only refer to distance. Claimants should be aware that they are likely to be asked about length of time at assessments and at appeals.
Definitely get them to recognise that your report is not fit for purpose, that is what worked for us. It is just so annoying though that they make all the mistakes( If they are mistakes, sometimes I think they just do it that way), and we have to do all the fighting, we are the ones who have to prove ourselves.
It makes me so mad, and when you are in the throws of dealing with it I cannot think of anything more frustrating. Good luck once again. we are all behind you.
Senior online community officer
I'm so pleased to see your good news after what has been a very worrying and stressful time for you (not to mention a long process).
You've conducted yourself with dignity and honesty the whole way through but the thing that stands out most is the way in which you've reached out to others going through similar challenges. To offer that level of support when you're going through such an agonising and draining process yourself is inspirational.
We must continue challenging negative PIP decisions. We must continue sharing information, tips and continue to support to each other. It's evident how useful this is, particularly when there is such a lack of face to face welfare benefits advice. I've spoken to many people who have contacted the helpline having seen the various PIP related discussions on this community. Everyone has reported how helpful they found the community so please keep up the good work!
Best wishes
Debbie
Very nice to hear from you, Debbie. And thank you very much for the compliments.
I'm not sure that I would have got through the PIP process without the help and encouragement of the community and the benefits advisors - and your help and encouragement in particular. Your links to the DWP PIP Handbook and DWP PIP Guide were very helpful indeed. So, I'll always be grateful to you.
I hope that one day the government will see sense and overhaul the vicious PIP system into a humane one.
I intend to stay on Scope and offer help and encouragement where I can.
However, if someone has a very fluctuating condition, it would be wise to get some up to date medical evidence.
I am bipolar and went from being awarded DLA at the highest rate for personal care and lowest rate for mobility indefinately, to scoring 0 points for either element at my initial assessment.
My assesment was carried out by a "nurse".
I went to my tribunal yesterday and was awarded the enhanced rate for personal care, but didn't qualify for the mobility element.
The tribunal wasn't as scarey as I thought it would be, in fact, the panel was much nicer than the nurse who gave me the initial face to face assesment!
The stress has been terrible during the whole process, but I would encourage anyone to persue their case to the tribunal.
I have only been given the award for two years (not indefinatley like the DLA award), so I'll have to go through the whole process again in what seems like a very short while.
Welfare Rights helped me prepare for the tribunal, so many thanks to them.
Congrats on getting your award
Give it a week or so and ring the DWP to make sure that they have received tthe notification from the tribunal, they have a bad habit of mislaying them.
Next, also be aware that the DWP often request a SOR from the judge. They can only challenge the decision on an error of law which doesn't happen often, but they still look at it sometimesm
When you do get your decision letter, look carefully at the dates. Often with a short term award it will be finite, that is it will have an end date and you will be invited to reapply 14 weeks before that date. You may have a reveiw date instead, which will be a year before your award is up. Which ever you have, you should start preparing for the next round, keeping a diary is a good place to start.
CR
This is my first post as I just joined the forum .
I wish you well for the future .
Regards Shay
Thank you! I wish you well for the future, too.
Amy
I had to wait 5.5 months in London, but waits are longer now. Unless Tribunal Clerk's letter has said otherwise, probably he hearing will be at the letter heading address but you could find out for sure by phoning the Clerk.
This is my predicament and I'm at the level to send off for a tribunal at a court.
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Hi, my name is Cobra, though I don’t bite.
I’ve a similar story like Juttle, but a few stages further.
I’d just turned 68 some 4 days ago. I’ve been receiving DLA HRM and HRC ……INDEFINITLEY for the last 12+ years since 2004. I had to go to a Tribunal with the Solicitor’s help. There was a cut off date for people to go from DLA to PIP which had I been 2 years older (63 instead of 65) I would have automatically qualified but alas that was not so !! I’ve been driving a Motability car for the last 12+ years.
I have been diagnosed with Arthritis since 1975 when I had my first of 17 separate operations to different parts of my body for different ailments. The ailments include insulin dependent (very high dosage 160-180 units) + tablets-controlled Diabetes, Hypertension, High Cholesterol, Neuropathy, frozen shoulder, Diabetic foot, Cataract + EYLEA, etc. Now at my age I’ve also been suffering with personal hygiene problems which involves with ‘accidents’ It would be inappropriate to write all these here. My files at 2 city hospitals, podiatry, optician, OT, and my GP’s surgery would be full of reams of paper. I was visited by my OT in 2005 and made a full report and suggested to me and to my local council to have full downstairs disabled facilities to be converted from my garage. My council even gave us some 80% grant. We had the Full Disabled facilities done by 2005. I also had further OT visits through my GP’s requests and they provided me with 2 metal walking sticks. They also provided a ramp and two grab rails to the front of my home.
I had a home visit by an assessor before Christmas. My son had asked if he could bring any tea / coffee or soft drink as is our traditional Indian custom for ALL visitors. She however declined. Then the grilling started, and she kept on pestering personal questions which made me cry. My son had to comfort me and bring some water for me. I asked her if she needed to check my disabled facility and again she declined.
I had heard nothing for weeks than I received a letter dated 05 Jan from my local council that my changeover from DLA to PIP will not vary for council Tax purposes and will remain same.
I’d then presumed that my PIP application has been approved. Therefore, it seemed my council received the notification from DWP before they had posted to me. I waited 3 more days to see if their letter would come and it hadn’t come so I rang to check if the letter had gone astray. Then DWP informed me that it was ‘sent’ on 05.01.18. Then further 2 days had passed and on Friday 12.01.18. To cap it all I found out that DWP had only given me 6 out of 74 points for Daily Living care (I had calculated 30 points) and 10 out of 24 points for mobility. (I had calculated 20 points).
Than I read what were the reasons given and I was flabbergasted to learn that the assessor’s report was pure fabrication and a pack of lies. The ‘tests’ I was made to do was exaggerated and some weren’t even asked so the DM made upon that information. I was told that should I want to ask for Mandatory Reconsideration Notice I’ve to send within 30 days. DWP deliberately took out approx. 10 days out of 30 days by posting to the council on the same day 05.01 as they said that they had posted to me which I received their letter on 12.01 I’d complained that to my MP as well, not that it would make any difference to a Tory MP.
I than made a MRN in time with what I’d thought I should the points have received and what I got. Again, it took some time to receive even a worse report and their letter thus discouraging me to appeal. This letter was dated 29 Jan was received a day after my 68 birthday on 05 Feb, i.e. 7 days to receive. Now again they’ve said that I’ve got 30 days from their letter dated 19 Jan for an appeal. By doing this you’re rushed in to writing to the courts for an appeal.
I am in tethers who to turn to, to help me make a winning appeal as CAB (they don’t have funding in my area), Helping Hands (they’ve got too much work so nearest appointment is in March) and now I’ve managed to get a call appointment next Thursday 15 Feb.
Sorry for this long message / rant but I needed to warn others of what’s happening with PIP. This message has taken me some hours in separate time and I hope it makes sense.
Thank you very much for the compliment
Hope that Helping Hands can help.
You only have to give an outline of your appeal case on the SSCS1 form in order to post it to meet the deadline. When the tribunal have sent you the DWP's evidence bundle then you can make your detailed submission and attach any additional evidence. You can send in additional evidence up to 7 days before the hearing, and even submit up to 2 pages of A4 on the day.
Helping Hands had told me (some 10 days ago) that the earliest they can help was in March. I haven't tried them back yet.
Its the form SSCS1 that scares me so I wanted step-by-step help. It's the first step (as Buddha said) that is the hardest especially after failing for the first 2 PIP failures. So any help will be much appreciated.
God Bless
PS: b
By the way how long does Scope take to accept my message on it's site as I'd initially posted on someone else's post before realising what I'd done? I've been getting notifications but they've still not put up my post.
It doesn't usually take more than a few hours to put up a new thread.
Scope Helpline might know if there are other f2f help organisations in your area.
AGAIN..WELL DONE!
Hope you don't have to wait long for a new date. Hang in there - 65% of appeals succeed!
Thank you for your reply. I was hoping it would only be a few weeks but it could be longer it seems. I said on my original application that I would take a short notice hearing but I will ring to confirm this. Glad to hear your partner got his overturned!
I can understand if they suspect the person isn't genuine but when it's obvious they have physical problems it beggars belief to have someone in extreme pain and distress keep going over the same stuff. I had to answer many questions for them as they were getting too upset at the personal questions. It is obvious if someone cannot dress upper or lower body they cannot wash or dress upper or lower body and would need help sometimes to wipe themselves on the toilet on bad days.
They also got high and high awards but the points were less than the 1st person as there was no mention of the 2nd needing help with upper body. re cooking they both even though neither can hold a potato peeler or sharp knife or handle hot pans due to hand problems they also suffer fatigue easily die to the massive amounts of pain yet both had the 8 points for unable to cook themselves denied and 4 given for needs help to cook. it seems .gov class being able to put a cold pie or ready meal into the microwave as preparing and cooking food even though neither could lift out the hot plate or meal if they put it into a microwave and do not eat warmed up mocrowave food.
You will find they being so thoughtful OR more devious, will make people who are claiming to have problems walking use the rooms furthest away from the waiting room. That is so I heard people say that they claim you walked more than 20 meters even if the person had to rest or was in obvious pain or took ages. Use a wheelchair & someone to push it preferably. as they do not ask you to stand and walk from experience of the people I took and pushed in their wheelchairs.
Never go alone even if you can get to work using your car,
If you have mental issues always have someone with you. I tried to help a man with an inoperable brain tumour who has blackouts massive memory problems IE forgets to eat or goes out dressed in unsuitable clothes forgets where he lives how to get home, his brain sometimes doesn't send signals to legs so can't stand or walk, and has to crawl. I witnessed that myself,
He has had fits and blacked out near the cooker. I could go on but he really needs a carer but has non, his social worker was supposed to go with him to the PIP assessment yet backed out on the last minute I believe she was told not to help him as .Gov need to save money to help the incoming people ! if you catch my drift.
He tries like many people with mental health issues to make out he is normal and doesn't have problems WHEN clearly he has and the PIP assessor took advantage of this and like another person I know who had the same issue was denied any PIP. Never allow a family member or friend to go alone to PIP as they will do everything they can to make it look like the person has no problems. to save money for the .gov..
However. I have been led to believe that it is up to the assessment person to decide what points , a person would get. So that is what the decision maker at DWP GOES on.
Not sure if they take into consideration what is wrote on the pip application by the person applying for it ?
The HCP only makes recommendations to the Decision maker regarding medical matters . It is up to the DM to look at all the evidence along with the HCP report to reach an award.
At least that is the theory
CR
waited a week on letter , nothing so called tribunal services today.
I win my enhanced rate back , went from 9 point to 19 at the appeal, and even got standard mobility award.
im so relieved, Iv been worried sick.
The only down side is the award is only until November 2019, which if I’m correct, they can start the whole nightmare process again in November this year.
i pray I don’t have to go through that process again this year for PIP, my ESA is to be looked at again in October this year.
susan
It is a good idea to wait a few days then ring DWP to make sure they have received a copy of the decision.
When you get your decision letter check carefully the review date, some short award have a reapply date not a review date
CR
i am so relieved but anxiety kicking in again re review/reapply date!!
The man I talked to said the DWP received an electronic copy on the date of my hearing 26th February.
i will wait until I have my copy and get someone to call for me. If too hard trying to talk with my speech the way it is.
i hope and pray that the government will see that PIP deciphers and assessments etc DO NOT WORK and change the situation 1000’s of people trying to live a “normal” life.
Thanks for your support.
susan
I hadn't received any acknowledgement so I just called the Bradford Appeal Centre and they said they acknowledged receiving my SSCS1 on 22.02.18.
I told them that I hadn't received it yet as per today's post. I asked them when my date of appeal is and she said it's only an acknowledgement letter.
I've requested them to resend by first class if possible.
This anxiety and worries is certainly on my mind day and night.
Tribunal date is someway of yet
Following the acknowledgement ,you should next receive the bundle of evidence used by the DWP to make their decision.
You should check that all your evidence is included and then use this to prepare your own submission
CRt
Incidentally my bank has confirmed that my first PIP payment of £66.00 was received today.
thats the annual increase
CR
Many people who were awarded indefinite DLA awards because of problems which they have medical evidence for and will never get better, EVER! but WILL get worse with time should just have been swapped over with just a phone call or letter to check they were on a high enough rate, if their conditions had got worse..
An assessor told me, The Government want to target people who had been given DLA because of an accident or other problem that would likely improve with time but did not report they had got better.
Or people who got awards because they were overweight, but then managed to lose weight and get fit, but still claim DLA, or people claiming to be scared to go out alone or other things that could be faked easily.
its's those we want to stop from claiming...And NOT the types of people who need help.. PIP change is not designed to take benefits off people who actually need help.
But if that is strictly true WHY then reduce the walking distance? why make it harder to get points for activities people cannot do easily or without pain and fatigue? Why dismiss people who have blackouts fits mega problems and are a danger to themselves and others?
why not make the transition easier for those who are born with issues or become afflicted by some issues which will not get better.?
It is being whittled away for us bit by bit as is all benefits pensions etc...
I recall speaking to a M. D. who under took assessment for D.L.A.
In training. They beers told. Do not believe the client....shameful.
British Veteran .
I was born with club feet in the fifties and had many operations from 13months old until I was 15. I have staples in my right foot and both knees and I wore calipers as a child. My condition is NEVER going to get better. I have walked with a limp all my life and I now have lower back and left knee problems as well as pain in my feet, ankles and legs but I've got to prove to a tribunal that I'm disabled and cannot walk far. I have medical evidence from birth to last week. What more evidence do they need? I was awarded DLA indefinitely and I agree that people born with conditions that are not going to get better should have been automatically moved over to PIP. That, at least, would save the government some money!!
In the original forms I completed it asked about preparing and cooking a meal but not one question about shopping for the food!! How can this be a fair assessment? Does the food just appear on our shelves by magic?
I have to work until I'm 66 but there were no questions about work but this is part of my everyday life!! I work full time and don't claim any benefits. I don't know what else they want from me and all the 1000s of people like me. I just hope the tribunal sees through the PIP lies and overturns their decision.
If people genuinely cannot look after themselves or need extra help due to an accident or they are disabled from birth, then just let us get on with our lives as best as we can with the extra support we need. Is it really too much to ask?
Do they have any relatives who’re are in the same predicament? Or are they just trained that they must not look like humans and look at their bonuses they would get for failing each person whether or not they’re suffering? How can they sleep at night ?
My name is ...
I am a nurse.
Is she qualified to be an assesser ?
PIP assessors then DWP decision makers are not taking into account problems that lack of height and reach causes for many people.
Take 2 People one way over 6 foot tall P1,
the other way under 5 foot P2
who have whole body and joint mega stiffness and nerve pain and muscle weakness, cannot use stairs steps as they feel unsafe and even feel unsafe on uneven ground, have problems with hands feet joints and spasms, cramps of hands etc.
P1 may be able to open a cupboard which is level with their chest because of their tall height and longer reach, and be able to take out a plate pan or food from the bottom or middle shelf of the cupboard be it in pain and tiring.
WHEREAS
But P2 with the same disabilities as P1, how could they do the same? as they can't even climb onto a step ladder or stool? and if they could they would then have to lean over towards the cupboard and stretch to try to get a plate pan or food off the bottom shelf..
Try explaining that to the assessors! regarding being able to prepare and cook food!
In a previous comment by ceege4 re cooking, there are no questions about shopping for the food.
It appears that shopping just arrives and puts itself away, according to the PIP, and short stature people must just float up to the cupboards to get out and put away pots pans food.
The people I took can neither bend down into cupboards or reach up to cupboards and cannot use step ladders, its unsafe!
Try telling PIP that though.
More possible answers should be on the form as people with the same problems but differing heights reaches etc do not have exactly the same problems.
Putting a A cold microwave meal or pie into the microwave is hardly preparing and cooking a meal, and if they can't lift it out of the microwave or carry the hot plate to a table what are they supposed to do? wake up .GOV
Is there any organisation s contesting the government .
One thing is the mobility part. Ie the walking distance.
i would call them to ask to ask if the awards been sent out, you probably will get it this week, with being Easter holidays and weekends etc.
id call and check though.
congratulations
You should ring DWP to make sure they have a copy of the decison
CR
Motability are the best people to talk to about time limits.
You can only take a tribunal decison further if an error in law is present in the decison. There often is but you will need trained advice on the matter.
Grounds for further appeal do not include disagreeing with decision
CR
The DWP can appeal to the Upper Tier Tribunal (UTT)
They can only do so if an error in law can be found in the decision.
They will first ask the judge for a statement of reason and record of proceedings
There are often errors present but the DWP seldom take any further action.
Even though the judge said he was awarding indefinitely, no such award exists in PIP
The DM can and does ignore time limits from tribunal decisions as PIP can be reviewed at any time
When you receive your decision letter, look at the end date but more importantly the review date
CR
At my tribunal the judge told me was making an indefinite award. The award letter from the DWP said that they would contact me after 10 years from the date of the tribunal decision. Others have said that their award letters had the same wording so I assume that yours will, too.