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Who are we and why are we here ?

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  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User] Posts: 740 Listener
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  • feir
    feir Community member Posts: 397 Pioneering
    edited December 2017
    wildlife said:
    @feir Hi and welcome to the discussion. I read your post with interest. You know a lot more than I do about what you have described. However if what you say is true about there being nothing left albeit after quite some time after the body has completely disintegrated how do you explain the many documented cases of children from as young as 2 remembering past lives. Information they talk about so casually of a life as someone they are not related to and checks made using what they have so innocently spoken about are found to be true.
     
              If our consciousness can only function when the physical body is fully operational how are cardiac arrest patients able to describe in detail what was happening, including exact words spoken, not just near to them but outside the room as well when their heart had stopped and brain function was zero. By your reasoning this should not happen. These are not Spiritualists who, as someone else has suggested, have a belief which causes these things to be imagined, they are anyone who has been taken to hospital and medical staff are talking to them afterwards so neither party are looking for this to happen. 
              There are cases of electrocution, people killed suddenly in road accidents who have been brought back and who talk about being fully aware and being able to see their lifeless bodies being treated by emergency services. Don't get me wrong I'm not trying to persuade you away from your belief I'm just trying to have a discussion that might explain how this can happen.
    the physical body hasn't decayed during cardiac arrest and neither has the brain, the heart may have stopped pumping oxygen to the brain but we're not sure how long the brain has to be starved of oxygen for for it to actually die (used to be thought around 8-20 mins, but people are surviving being starved for much longer than that, even newborns are). many people do change after a stroke or some other disease that caused a part or parts of their brain to be starved of oxygen. they can change physically but they can also experience personality changes.

    also this is creepy* so i'll shove it right at the end of this post so anyone not wanting to read it doesn't have to. it does seem to back up what you say.

    anyway, out of body experiences are very possible during brain damage, brain diseases and disorders, brain tampering (yes they have gone into peoples brains and stimulated them and some people have had out of body experiences that way), trauma can cause dissociation, and even drugs can cause them, i've heard even meditating can do it (astral projection). a lot of things can alter the brain so that it does not function in the usual way.

    i'll explain the decay thing a little more, so you understand what i mean exactly and what i believe. i'll try and keep it simple but elongated to explain as much as i can.

    firstly i'll explain what i mean by you/me. 'us/me', is your physical alive body absorbing information from everything it experiences and making sense of that so it is able to interact with the world and understand it as it sees it. you do this by using connections throughout the body to communicate information and then store this information, and that is what makes you, you. your physical body helps you to do this in the way it does, without that body, or without being able to sense things the way your body does (and has done), you would not be you in the way you are right now.

    eventually all your parts will decompose and become 100% nonfunctional as you, they stop sending impulses to other parts and their energy is used to decay only. it's safe to say it's likely you cannot receive or process information any more. if not cremated your physical body will remain as a storage system only but is not functional as you, so although parts of you are gone, parts of you do remain. what it stores we don't know exactly but have some theories. we only know your DNA can create a replica of you physically at this time. if it can also have your memories then the replica would exactly be you.

    i believe we have a soul, but i believe it cannot function once the body stops working. i haven't died forever though so can't say this is a definite, it just seems logical to me that once the body stops existing then so do you. based on if you believe your neural system is the primary factor in making you, you and that you need that system to be able to exist. like i said if memories can indeed be stored in the DNA then it's also possible that another copy of you exactly could exist (up till the time of creation and then that you experiences different things to you and stops being you, in the same way when you experience new things you stop being exactly you also).

    children are great absorbers of information with pretty good imaginations, they also don't understand how the world behaves. Jean Piaget has done a lot of research on the developing child and his theories are interesting (and still tested out today) and seem to hold true. they explain how children think, often illogically compared to an adult but logically for someone inexperienced in life. he gave us good insight into how they think; others are exactly like them, that others can see things only from their perspective, and how they have an egocentric view of the world. so it's definitely feasible that a child of 2 would think they were someone else. couple of things i can think of is because they don't always understand that they are separate entities from others, they could pretend to be superman if they wanted to but we know he doesn't exist so we'd automatically presume they are playing and pretending in the normal way a child would. it's funny we might think a kid pretending to be a real person might not be doing the same thing as playing being superman. also reinforcement is good for kids, and they love attention, give them attention or make them feel special for being someone else would definitely give reinforcement for that behaviour and encourage them to continue being that person and expand on their stories. i'd really be more impressed if children experienced things that had never happened before or not experienced things that happen to so many people or are so famous that it's unlikely they'd never heard of the things they were talking about

    there is such a thing as false memory but i don't believe a child so young would be able to produce those. i feel imagination is much more likely to be the case.

    but, if memories could be passed on via DNA then maybe they are somehow remembering those memories? personally not had this happen to me though and don't believe we have the ability to remember anything other than what is necessary for our survival but it's possible some people have the ability to process others memories from their DNA being them inside them.i do wonder if any of these kids grew up and still believe they are someone else? i googled but couldn't find such info..

    how do you think the memories got into a child? just out of interest as i have no other ideas.

    hope none of that sounds condescending, i'm a very logical thinker but on the internet i worry things can come across in the wrong way. also hoping the info is easy to understand as i know a lot about the brain and psychology, as well as philosophy. and apologies, i know way too much stuff for a normal person and probably bored you half to death with my answer  here. but thanks, it's a pleasure to use my brain -even if it's not at it's best right now. :) and all of this is my opinion based on what knowledge i personally have about certain things, as well as a little imagination bringing up possibilities. also i'm not denouncing anyone elses beliefs i just think mine are feasible.

    *some scientists do believe that you are aware of your death when you die, and it is thanks to the NDEs that you mention is why they think this. but what you mention does bring up the possibility that you can still exist despite not having electrical impulses connecting through your physical form (if that's what brain death means in these cases?) otherwise i will believe the out of body experiences as what being because of what i described earlier.


  • Dawn68
    Dawn68 Community member Posts: 5 Listener
    I'm an odd ball I believe in God,but I'm a natural born physic I dont hear voices I see things word's pictures. and feel things. Not all the time but I'm always spot on. I've survived death at least twice. My biggest problem is that I have bipolar disorder and professionals says "Dawn do you hear or see things that arnt there?" my answer isnt "oh yes all the time" because I've been seeing things my whole life I believe that for me it's as natural as breathing. I believe in life after death sorry if this is rather ****    
  • Topkitten
    Topkitten Community member Posts: 1,285 Pioneering
    I always find it odd when people take a stance on something that will, at some point, be proved wrong. As science progresses it gains new abilities and new limits. Just because we cannot detect something now doesn't mean that, at some future point, we won't. I put forward a suggestion that even though the doctors may think a person dead they may not be. Our ability to detect life signs is constantly improving and you only need to look into history to understand that. A hundred years ago a person in a coma might well have been buried alive because they could not detect what we can now. People had to be left in coma's until they woke naturally only 20 years ago, now science can bring them out sooner. Science improves and decisions change based on new information.

    Spiritual energy cannot currently be detected and measured but it does exist. Who is to say whether it is sufficient to keep the brain alive when everything else shuts down? Maybe, once it can be detected measured and understood, it will change the definition of death.

    I still tend to be sceptical about OBE's though. They can be explained by a spiritual link with a person in the room and having access to their memories. Because the body is sedated does not mean that a strongly spiritual person is necessarily incapable of communication. Lives are relatively short compared to the amount of information that is available to be discovered so as generations go by new scientific discoveries change society and change perspectives. I am a little sad in that respect that some of the theories I feel are true will never be proven in my lifetime.

    TK
    "I'm on the wrong side of heaven and the righteous side of hell" - from Wrong side of heaven by Five Finger Death Punch.
  • wildlife
    wildlife Community member Posts: 1,293 Pioneering
    Hi Everyone, Thank-you so much for your input to this discussion. Something rather strange has been happening whilst you have been telling us about your individual beliefs. I am reading a book ATM and after going to bed last night I first read @feir's post then transferred straight to my book which described an experiment carried out whereby Psychics able to remote view were sent down in a submarine to a depth where it has been proved that electromagnetic impulses cannot function. The results indicated that thoughts do not work through the electromagnetic field. I have only mentioned this as being strange that I have no control over what you're all writing and yet the book seems to be answering the points as they are written. 
          It went on to describe a very plausible and proven reason why the majority of people stick with their beliefs even when faced with overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Experiments, which I can tell you more about if you're interested, were carried out shortly before the US Elections in 2004 that show how decisions are not made on facts alone. Each time a subject discounted the evidence and decided their belief was true the brain registers pleasure to make them feel good. This feeling over rides the evidence and forms the main basis for them not being able to even consider the facts. 80 odd per cent of people react in this way. Others, who are very much in the minority, and this is based on different types of personality, disregard the pleasure felt and are able to consider the facts for what they are. I have tried to write this as general information regarding people as a whole. It is not personal to anyone on this forum. I have resisted the temptation to continue to write about how some of the beliefs posted here can be discounted when the facts of each case are examined.
               I am very interested in now turning this discussion into how this concept can help us improve our health. I will start by suggesting that open mindedness about all the different types of treatment which may help rather than just sticking with the NHS may be a good way forward. Anyone else have any ideas?    
  • CockneyRebel
    CockneyRebel Community member Posts: 5,209 Disability Gamechanger
    Thank you wildlife, DannyMoore, fier, Dawn and TK all for sharing.
    We each have different understandings and knowledge to share and I thank you for doing so with repect for each other.
    My own knowledge and experiances I will try and share but it can be  very diffficult for me to explain much that is outside my command of this world language.

    Please keep sharing, all knowledge  and thoughts are adding to our collective understanding

    Namaste

    CR
    Be all you can be, make  every day count. Namaste
  • thespiceman
    thespiceman Community member Posts: 6,388 Disability Gamechanger
    Hello Everbody and those I have not met before lovely to meet you and welcome.  I was talking about the Indian and Chinese cultures where they believe in a second life reborn.  I was wondering then if I can be so bold.  How does that belief stand?  I read every ones contribution and am enthralled that I have a purpose in life.  I still get confused on the basic understanding of it all.  Although I believe that some of us have been here before.  Never forget lad in our village.  Had different look to the brothers he had.  They all dark hair and he was blond.  He was in my class at school and kept going on about a second life.  We of course being about under ten at the time great hilarity well were just young kids.  Any way went to a military airbase school visit.  Next thing he talking about he was really a German Airman bombed and crashed died in the plane.  Started talking about all the incidents in the War and much more.  I was as the rest of us all now not only baffled but went in long stories of his past life.  How does a child be like that?  He had no knowledge of the War.  Plus he startled us all with his vivid recollection of his death.  How he died and where. The local paper got hold of this and published the story.  My amazement more flooded him like his.  Where does that come from?  I was curious then and always be.
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  • feir
    feir Community member Posts: 397 Pioneering
    i just think neurons convey information so that parts of the body can connect with each other and make sense of the information they take in. once they stop functioning then so does the information, and you can't access the stored info any more either.

    wish i'd just said that in the first place haha, seems a lot more simple than last nights ramblings. :D
  • wildlife
    wildlife Community member Posts: 1,293 Pioneering
    @thespiceman The boy you knew at school is one of many thousands of cases where children remember past lives. The difference between imagination and something that looks like they may have lived before are: 1. When they talk about their job/things they did that they have no knowledge of in this life e.g. parts of WW2 aircraft and how they work 2. Claiming to have been someone who can be traced as having lived as a real person with dates, names of themselves and relatives, where they lived, what they ate even. 3. How they died. Some are born with limbs missing or birthmarks corresponding to injuries sustained in a previous life. Some are taken back to a place they say they lived and recognize it and relatives still living are greeted with genuine emotion and sometimes distress at having to leave and go back to their present life. 
          If the children were making this up the information would not correspond to facts that can be checked out. Children can sometimes also remember their existence in between lives. Adults can be regressed under hypnosis when similar info. as the children is given. 
         Regarding Eastern medicine I have tried some things that didn't seem to work but then again I don't trust Western Medicine to do the best it can for my conditions. I am somewhere in between believing there is a place for all types of treatment and with knowledge of what is wrong so much more can be done. I have felt ill for years every winter. My GP has no answer for this. Recently I've started seeing a Nutritionist who suggested I may be short of Vit. D the sunshine vitamin. I now take it as a supplement and this winter am feeling much better. I do understand that a lot of money can be wasted and damage to our health by trying different things, but if you're sensible and seek help from people who know what they're talking about, doing that alongside your Doctor's advice and treatment is how I like to use alternative remedies. 
  • Neil2017
    Neil2017 Community member Posts: 155 Courageous
    Talking of past lives and all that. Did anyone see that news item on Egyptian mummies And now being able to use special photography to reveal hyroglifics on face masks and tge like? Very interesting as surely that is a race that believed in some form of Spiritualism with all those pyramids.
  • thespiceman
    thespiceman Community member Posts: 6,388 Disability Gamechanger
    Hello @wildlife Thank you for replying.  Giving me information on past lives.  I watch some days the series Unsolved Mysteries on CBS there is always a story or two like this.  I just thought put it out there.  Thank you very much.  I am as I said interested in alternative medicines.  The problem is that is such a vast and wide field.  New ideas and certain types of herbs and spices come on to the web pages every day.  I am always fascinated and curious about every thing.  How about the common cold.  Page after pages of cures and certain herbs and spices. that benefit the misery.  The body is a marvellous thing and the relationships we have with it.  Need to be aware of how complicated it is.  I have been looking at how body and mind works for a long time and I will admit my knowledge has been strengthened by contributions here.  Thank you all.  Who needs the Open University?  We have our community.  I will some time in the future talk about herbs and spices and some of their benefits.  I am a bit scared of how far I can go explaining.  With out the SCOPE team saying no you cannot say that.  I am grateful to them for keeping us all in line.  Hate breaking rules just like a bit of flexibility now and again.  Great to talk speak to you soon.
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  • CockneyRebel
    CockneyRebel Community member Posts: 5,209 Disability Gamechanger
    It is very hard to take anything on trust, we are all used to being lied to, conned and exploited. Early man thought the world was flat. Some people don't accept that we have landed on the moon. Have you ever approached an electric fence and touched it ?
    There are many fantastic  things that have been experianced by individuals but remain as myth and legend because unless we see for our selves we do not belive.
    I have said before that I belive most religions started with the founder trying to explain an understanding they have to people that do not have that understanding.
    If you witness an event you are far more likely to belive than if you are told about it. Our logical brain kicks in and with the knowledge that we have gained decides whether some thing is real/ possible or just trickery and lies.
    If, for example, you have a degree in quantum maths how would you explain what you know to a three year old ?
    Does something exist outside the life we know ? Is there something before birth and after death ? Is there "life" elsewhere ?
    We can choose to belive or deny and either some people will get a suprise or it won't matter.
    There is much knowledge that could be shared but is denied due to our in ability to accept that which we don't understand. We would rather trust our man made sciences to tell us what is and isn't possible. Where did the inspiration come from that created the wheel ? or any of the things we now take for granted.
    In the last 50 years technology seems to be speeding up at an almost unstopable pace. My Gran would never have believed you could walk around with a telephone.
    Is it possible that Fairies do exist ?

    CR


    Be all you can be, make  every day count. Namaste
  • Dawn68
    Dawn68 Community member Posts: 5 Listener
    I think there is a saying "we all need something to believe in" and I think that is true. I have heard my special needs son when he was very young say things that he could not of known from conventional sources.
    I have felt such a strong need to pass on a "message" to someone that I'd seen but not spoken on a facebook group. The things I told her and the phrases I used were not mine,and I had no way of knowing what I did. But I put her mind at ease and gave her  the answers she needed.
    I firmly believe in life after death we carnt go through all that we do for nothing.
    A methodist minister once told me "Its better to die in believe and be wrong,than to die in terror and be right"
    D xx

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