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PIP SSCS1 form

leesteukleesteuk Member Posts: 15 Listener
edited January 2018 in PIP, DLA and AA

Hi im am new here so firstly "Hello Everyone"

Like many others here I have been refused PIP scoring 6 points for the living part and 4 for the mobility part,

My ATOS face2face went very well and the lady who was a nurse was really nice and reasuring(Or so I thought)

I asked for a copy of her report and it was full of lies and untruths ! BUT I covertly recorded my f2f so have evidence of her lies,

When I had my M/R I said I had recorded the f2f but this made no difference as my points stayed the same,

So now its onto Appeal !


What I want to know is, On the SSCS1 form where it says "grounds for appeal" Should I say I covertly recorded my ATOS face to face assessment and that it contradicts the ATOS report or not ?

Also is the appeal something I can handle myself or do I need legal help ?


Thanks

Lee


Replies

  • algy194algy194 Member Posts: 25 Listener
    I too would love to know where people stand with covert recordings, as the same thing happened to myself   ..nice as pie then a report of lies 
    I think there is a point of Law that is something to do with a manuscript of a recording    ...but I never did find out. Yet I did read on Benifits & Work Forum Some lady did a covert recording and said it was important, but nothing else was ever published explaining this that I am aware of.
           Good luck    ..
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,977 Disability Gamechanger

    Okay so focus on why you qualify for PIP. What points do you score and why? What is the evidence you have that supports your case and is it strong enough? Discrediting the HCP report by itself will not establish entitlement unless you have good evidence to outweigh it. Focusing on your recording may well undermine your credibility as a trustworthy witness just as much as it undermines the HCP report.

    Recording without permission is not allowed. To date only one appeal tribunal that I'm aware of has allowed such a thing to be admitted into evidence. Google it via BBC news and you'll soon find it. I do suspect more will now be admitted but you could not unreasonably expect the assessment provider to be fairly unforgiving and suspicious at any reassessments. Again though, this person might believe they won because they exposed inaccuracies but, in order to do so, they will have needed good contradictory evidence so that's where you start.

    In order to get your recording into evidence you will need to do two things. Firstly, you will need to provide an exact copy. You can expect DWP at any hearing to immediately challenge whether it is an exact copy because it won't have been made at the time of the first recording and they didn't have sight of either copy at the time. They can easily argue that you have edited it and you have nothing to say that you didn't. Nevertheless I would recommend you send in 4 copies. One for each tribunal member and one for the presenting officer. HMCTS will not normally copy a single copy 4 times so the onus is on you to make their life easier.

    It would also be wise to get the whole thing transcribed. You can do this yourself but I wouldn't advise it. Get someone else to do it and then submit the full transcript. This is because again, if they haven't the time to listen to the full recording (and they may not for reasons I explain below) then your providing a typed transcription will assist. 1 copy to HMCTS should do as they are obliged to copy all evidence to all parties.

    Additional to the above I would get immediate face to face with a view to securing representation on the day. This will give you an objective view of your case with and without your recording and a rep on the day will considerably enhance your chances of success in a way that a paper submission will not, assuming you have a winnable case.

    Please be aware that calling a HCP a liar is emotive and will again undermine your case. You can't prove a lie. You can prove a factual inaccuracy if you have the evidence.

    Finally, and this is why you need advice, you must be aware that it's perfectly possible for a HCP to have gotten the details of your case woefully wrong and yet you may still not qualify for PIP. It is not automatically the case that discrediting the HCP will get you any rate of PIP. Far from it in fact.

  • leesteukleesteuk Member Posts: 15 Listener

    Thanks Algy194

    I am a member of the works and benefit :)

  • leesteukleesteuk Member Posts: 15 Listener

    Thanks Mikehughescq


    I fully intend to add the reasons why I feel I should be awarded PIP to the Appeals form,

    What I meant was should I also include in that the fact I covertly recorded my f2f ATOS medical OR should I not even bother to mention this ( in case it goes against me)


    Thanks

    Lee

  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 215 Listener
    @leesteuk To know you have the evidence but cannot use it must be so frustrating for you.
  • leesteukleesteuk Member Posts: 15 Listener

    Hi budgie


    Yes it is annoying but hopefully I will have enough to win my case, lets see !

  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 215 Listener
    @leesteuk Good luck hope ya do 
  • leesteukleesteuk Member Posts: 15 Listener

    Thanks Budgie2 so do I :)

  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,977 Disability Gamechanger

    It's a judgement call but, knowing that one high profile case has admitted such a recording and then given the HCP evidence less weight, would suggest the door will eventually be kicked down. That may not be immediate though. I would guess most tribunals will not admit such a recording as evidence. Recording without consent and then making public in some way is something you would need very clear legal advice on before you do anything further. My other concerns would be that

    1) At the appeal stage you're only dealing with HMCTS and DWP. The assessment provider will remain oblivious to what you have done unless someone tells them or, for example, if you make a complaint on the back of the recording. This may suggest a further assessment could be appropriate before the appeal hearing so you need to weigh that into the equation too.

    2) Throwing in the fact that you've done a covert recording on an SSCS1 needs to be handled properly. Like any other aspect of an appeal letter it needs to have more than assertion attached to it. Just throwing it in without enclosing copies or transcriptions could be interpreted as a heavy handed attempt to bully or threaten. If you have taken legal advice and decide to proceed then I would suggest you need to enclose transcriptions and/or copies at the same time.

    Also, I forgot to mention why they might not get to hear a recording.

    - HMCTS don't necessarily have the facilities to copy a recording to all parties. Even if they can send one copy to the judge they may not have any facilities to play it on the day of the hearing as they can't possibly have every type of recording format catered for.

    - The judge may also not have the facilities at home to hear it in advance either and could not in fact listen to it unless they were satisfied other members of the panel could hear it also as it's an error of law for any one panel member to have more knowledge of a case than the others at the outset of a hearing.

    - you can't solve that by rolling up with a player on the day. That would require consent from all concerned and a listing of at least half a day to accommodate listening to the whole thing. Any decent DWP presenting officer would immediately ask for an adjournment and HMCTS won't list for half a day other than in exceptional circumstances. m

  • leesteukleesteuk Member Posts: 15 Listener

    Thanks for that Mike,

    I don't think I will bother mentioning it in the Appeal form after reading your comments, I did mention it on my Mandatory Reconsideration to the DWP and it didn't do any good as my points stayed the same. 6 for living and 4 for mobility.


    Thanks

    Lee

  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,977 Disability Gamechanger
    MR is different though. Regrettably most cases at MR are not currently overturned. Very different picture at appeal. I would still get legal advice.
  • leesteukleesteuk Member Posts: 15 Listener

    Mikehuges

    Have a look at this and what do you think ?

    http://www.pipappeal.com/

  • algy194algy194 Member Posts: 25 Listener
    Very well explained Mike, Thank you. I seem to be stuggle to understand Evidence, If say I have 11 conditions and there is medical evidence to prove these, So the medical conditions are not questionable, How do I prove how they effect me. Example I suffer  Mild Cognitive Impairment and have very poor memory I have explained this on the PIP2 Form and it's not been credited as a difficulty with any activity how do I prove what I have said when the Atos HP as not even recognised the condition, and say through out Unremarkable MSE no evidence of Cognition Issues  It even says on the MR report "No Medical evidence of a Cognitive issues " this is repeatedly said in report " & has not been listed in the Illnesses & disabilities, They have even got my age wrong on the very first page. How would I prove I stuggle to get dressed and I do need assistance, It takes me more than twice as long as it normally would when the Atos HP puts 2 points can use an aid When with 23 years of Osteoporosis Arthritis and now Diabetic Neuropathy I can not "medical evidence of conditions " What do I do to prove I need more than an aid 
      I need to get an understanding as the Atos HP report is lies   ..I will not mention Covert recording.  Again Thank you for your explanation Mike it makes Sence now. I just need proving to make the same Sence as I can't grasp it 
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,977 Disability Gamechanger
    Okay, so what’s your evidence of cognitive impairment? Something from your GP would suffice to confirm the diagnosis. All the HCP has done is say that when you were there they could see no evidence of this. Not the same as saying it’s not there. 

    That begs the question as to what you think they ought to have seen. What happened whilst you were there that would have illustrated it? If nothing then you’re both right. You can prove you have it via the GP and the HCP can say well okay but I didn’t see it.

    Evidencing the impact is easy. Give examples of when it has impacted. Stories of memory loss if you like. 

    For dressing, describe the specific issues you have. Which bits of dressing and what problems? Again give recent examples of what happens when you try each specific item you have issues with. 
  • algy194algy194 Member Posts: 25 Listener
    Hi Mike Thank you for getting back to me, the thing is I have medical evidence from a specialist  Doctor from The Mental heath services " lets say page 68 bundle " which clearly states  M.C.I and it says this on my GP letter "Page 88"  also says this on a Clinical Psychology letter, "Page 93"  Plus how this and many other things effect me. It's all on the PIP2 Form it's like I need to rewrite what is clearly written which I did do on the MR. I'm finding it hard to re-write what I have said twice already if anything any descriptions have been exhausted I even sent Photos which you can't see on the photocopies in the Bundle, Could I resend them Or is that to much Or would they just be Photocopied again I just don't know.  I am trying to get a CAB appointment but I've been told I have only 1 month from the date on the DWP Bundle pack with me asking for a Paper Appeal, so if this is correct the Bundle was dated 6 days before I received it I don't have much time at all you see.
      Is that the sort of thing you mean regarding evidence. Plus I have a letter from the person who took me to the Atos Assessment "page .." which says plenty regarding knowing me for years how heath problems effect me and what actually happened at the Assessment is that not evidence I have already submitted 
         I feel I will be treated the same as by the DWP it is make me feel that way. But is that the sort of thing you mean regarding evidence.
             Many thanks again Mike for your help 
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,977 Disability Gamechanger
    First of all, and apologies if I’ve misunderstood, but you do not want a paper hearing. You want an oral hearing else your chances of winning diminish hugely.

    Secondly, it’s all too vague. A mental health specialist can talk in general terms about how your condition ought to impact you but how can they know the specifics? 

    Think of it in terms of pub stories. Write every story you’ve ever told or would tell family and friends about things that have happened to you. Nothing more complex than that.

    I could assert that I am prone to walk into things even if I know they’re there. That’s assertion not evidence. My specialist can say “He tells me that he’s prone to bumping into things. This would be consistent with this condition”. That says I’m credible but it’s not medical evidence. It’s just repetition. 

    If I tell them in detail about walking into a sign post outside work in October 2016 even though it’s been there all the time I’ve worked there then that would be good evidence. It goes beyond asserting and it gives an example. It’s still no good unless I go into detail though. When. Where. What. How. Why. Witnesses. What happened next (I was hospitalised for the day) and where. Which hospital? How long? Examples one and two get you nothing. Example there eventually gets you points.


  • algy194algy194 Member Posts: 25 Listener
    Thank you again Mike for your help, I am starting to see what you mean it is very difficult for a Paper hearing to get what is a fact regarding how a condition is proven the way it effects daily functions, The hospital Where & when is evidence but only if you have the paperwork to prove this actually happened" it's not just Hearsay, is that correct regarding proving. The more I read what you have said Mike my understanding is slowly getting better, Or is it. I can see why Paper appeals even though some win them is very difficult as apposed to an Oral hearing, so if I disagree with just using a shoe horn to help me get dressed because I have had Arthritis for 23 years I need assistance from another person, Unless I have a letter from the person who helps me, When, how often etc it's worth nothing is that correct. Due to me M.C.I I left a pan on, Worth nothing ..Due to my M.C.I I left a pan on the Fire Brigade came = When, Where, = point's I can not cut vegetables to make a simple meal due to Arthritic Pain, Worth nothing in a paper appeal, I can not open ready cut fresh vegetables packets due to Arthritic Pain like I can't open open Blister packs with my medication, not sure if that's a example in reality, but it's the same thing or is it. This is very difficult Mike I have noticed some activities are similar in structure of physical movement, But there is noway I could go to an Oral hearing. The medical evidence only suggests I can't regardless of many medical conditions. Thank you again Mike for your explanation it has really made me see things in a different light to how I was thinking
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,977 Disability Gamechanger

    No, not quite. The burden of proof is the balance of probabilities. So, whether something is more likely than not.

    If you say something is true and can evidence it in a way which is consistent and not obviously contradictory then it ought to be accepted. That changes slightly if there is some evidence (like that from a HCP or even your own GP) which contradicts your own then obviously you will need to produce something to swing the balance.

    There's no obligation to provide written proof of anything but anything you can produce helps.

    In the situation you describe for example you have a HCP saying you can use a shoe horn and you saying you need assistance. I don't think that requires letters to resolve. You need to simply put together a credible explanation of why.

    So, if you say, for example, that it's because you can't grip a shoe horn or bend forwards then what's your evidence for that? You can assert both things but what, for example, if your GP or consultant provide no evidence of a functional assessment which suggests any problem with grip or bending? Then, you have a problem.

    A letter from someone who helps you may or may not be of use. One of the issues with that approach is that, for example, a wife may help a husband not because they need care but because their relationship is one where the husband expects help when he asks. A friend may feel uncomfortable declining to help but may in reality think you don't need the help.

    So, there's no guaranteed magical solution. There's only identifying gaps in the evidence and seeing how they can be filled. The answers will be different in every case.

    NB: Your evidence is first hand. That's not the same as "hearsay" evidence which is from a third party.

    As far as paper hearings are concerned it's very simple. You don't want one. The chances of success, even with a winnable appeal, are 3 to 5%. They rise immediately to around 45% if you opt for an oral hearing.

  • algy194algy194 Member Posts: 25 Listener
    Again Thank you Mike,  Your advice is explained very well. Unfortunately for myself an Oral tribunal is out of the question, even the friend who took me to the Atos Assessment agreed that route is not realistic Mentality for me as it would be 12 months plus of daily endless worry. So I will see if I can get a quick CAB cancellation, it might help if it happens, But not if its 1 month from the date on the DWP Bundle pack is correct.  I think that would be common knowledge People would be well aware putting Paper appeals in, in time I'd have thought.   Would an ESA HP report that States needs assistance with Bowel incontinence "Very well worded too" not show one HP as a completely different view on this condition as apposed to an Atos HP    ..wouldn't do any harm with such a low chance percentage wise 'It's that one month thing that's got me though 
       Many thanks Mike it's good to be able to be seeing the true picture of what appears so incredibly difficult If I had more time I could get another letter from GP upto date which would say poor grip. But to be honest I've had enough what will be will be.
           Your knowledge is exceptional Mike and put across so you can see how the system is 
          Kindest regards Algy 
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,977 Disability Gamechanger
    Are you aware that you can request a domicilary hearing i.e. at your home? Nowadays HMCTS are less likely to do this because of the cost and because anxiety of itself doesn’t stop most people from travelling e.g. to their doctors. Their view is that if income is at least as important as health then you can make the journey. After various incidents they also like to do a health and safety risk assessment.

    Best approach is to get medical support for a domicilary and then request it as a reasonable adjustment under the Equality Act 2010. Give them a get out clause and say that you would consider a telephone only or Skype hearing (provided that you would).

    All of these are good alternatives and will be considered if you ask. Best way is to ask for judges directions on the location in your appeal letter.

    The one thing to not do is a paper hearing.

    1 - as I said previously the success rate is appalling.
    2 - they could still adjourn and ask you to attend. 
  • algy194algy194 Member Posts: 25 Listener
    Again Thank you Mike, this really is an education. I would ever have found out so much and I've looked at what I thought was a lot of relevant information ..I was nowhere near. I can see there logic Health vs Income but for me no I have to draw the line on that, I wish I could go all the way. The Stress and worry stops it has to Mike. I am glad that people are strong enough to see it through but for me this has to end. It has taken over to much Thank you Mike Algy
  • algy194algy194 Member Posts: 25 Listener
    Well as you said Mike success rate is appalling. I managed to get CAB to help & it was good, to the point and pointed out what was missed ie proof of M.C.I which was said there was no medical evidence of, in other words rewritten what I had myself but in a diffrent fomat which I was very grateful for. Top Man knew how to go about it. The HMCTS received appeal on 12th Feb, got the decision today 23rd Feb "very quickly"  no joy it's as if it wasn't even looked at. 
       Thank you for all your help Mike and explaining how it is 
            Kind regards Algy. I just need to put this behind me now 'far from easy but I must, health
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,977 Disability Gamechanger
    Excellent. Happy to help.
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