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PIPS face to face need help

jaycee6

Hi All Has anyone gone through a face to face pips with your young adult child.I am a appointee for my 21 year old daughter with downs,I haven't got a clue what to expect.My daughter can talk but she doesn't understand much of what she is asked,She will say yes to most things even if the answer should not mean yes, Will they ask me any questions or just her ,? ,What should I take with me?,I would be grateful for any advice? also if anyone could share their experience are they always bad ,Also we go this Monday so time very limited ,Thanks from Jaycee6

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CockneyRebel

Hi jaycee and welcome

Have a look at the B&W self test

http://www.mybenefitsandwork.co.uk/pip/indexxx.php

CR

jaycee6

HI cockney rebel ,thanks for info.But does anyone know if it is me they will ask the questions to (as her appointee) ,Or my daughter who doesnt understand the questions she will be asked, Will i be allowed to say anything?

jaycee6

thanks for the info mike i will check that out now,What worry's me is she has severe learning difficulties and wont even understand what they are asking her

YuffieG

I took my autistic son for his changeover from Dla to pip last year. I’m also my sons appointee because he cannot answer questions himself and becomes distresses. During the assessment my son kept looking at me and I knew what was coming because I could see him visibly shaking and getting even more distressed. When I tried to answer the questions for him the assessor became curt and asked me to butt out and let my son answer the questions. I then said what was the point of me signing the papers to say I would be his appointee if you’re not going to let me represent him. She tried to unsuccessfully get more questions out of my son but I think she even could see how distressed my son was becoming and let me take over thankfully. He lost his low mobility - he only scored 4 and I felt that he should have got more points because he has a fear os stairs and can’t actually go up or down stairs (when no lift available) without a lot of encouragement and having someone with him. He also cannot plan a journey and gets very distressed if he loses sight of us and also cannot go anywhere on his own due to not being road weary, but going through an appeal myself has been so draining that I didn’t bother to ask for a mandatory reconsideration or appeal and now it’s too late.

jaycee6

yuffieG thank you for the reply,it was most helpful.I must admit im more worried now ,How on earth are we able to convince them that are children cant plan a journey or go out on their own.my daughter has never been able to go out on her own.Same problem not aware of traffic doesn't understand road names etc,she would be unsafe to step out of the door on her own,I cant believe they only gave you 4 points,This means the descriptors for points are untrue.What on earth do they ask you.Also how long did the consultation last.

YuffieG

Try not to worry too much - I put my foot down regarding speaking up for my son and that seemed to help. I tried not to be rude about it but I’m sure she thought I was rude. Yeah I didn’t know that you could appeal for up to 13 months of assessment - I’m kind of wondering if I should, but not sure at how to go about it? Perhaps @Username_removed can help? I’ll also have to talk to my son because I’m unsure on how he would cope with the stress of the appeal. The system with PIP is so flawed and despite the governemnts reassurance that the poor and vulnerable would not be affected they sure as heck were!

EDIT: Sorry forgot to add, I can’t really remember how long we were in there but it didn’t seem all the long, maybe 20 mins but definitely no longer than 30 mins.

jaycee6

yuffieG Thanks for message .Im trying to keep calm and not get nervous about Monday. also was it just you and your son at the assessment,I was wondering if they would allow my husband in as well,I feel more confidant about speaking out as my daughters appointee now after, you said you did. .Also if you feel your son should get more than 4 points go for it .He should get what he deserves ,you have nothing to lose .Could they just look at the mobility part only if your happy with the rest.

Fight4Justice

NOTE: Everything I say below is just my own suggestions & opinions. It could actually be a bad idea to be as provocative as I suggest below. But these are all things I wish I had done at my own reassessment, earlier this Monday.

Please request to record your assessment. They will lie through the skin of their teeth if you don't. I had mine recorded, and my assessor was still brutal. But I'm 100% certain she'd have been 10x worse, without the recording.

First of all be prepared to answer the same question in many different formulations. They will keep asking the same question using different ways, until they get an answer, which they can give you 0 for on the specific descriptor, you're talking about. Don't panic, and don't break under their assault, it will be difficult, because they have been trained to do this. Give your answer, if they're not typing it down after you give it, ask them directly why they're not writing it down (this may be over the top, but I wish I had done this more).

Also don't let them bully you. That's what they've been trained to do. If they ask you a question you think is not relevant to your son/daughter's condition. Say it! You got to put them on the back foot. Also, if you do go down the recording route. At the start, when the recorder is on. Ask them to state their ID name for the recording, along with that ridiculously long 20+ ID digit number they have. In my reassessment, she held it up, and stuck it in my face. If they ask you to read it yourself, tell them the car journey there has made you feel dizzy. Force them to read it out themselves. They have to do it, if it's on recording. Furthermore, you are allowed to request to see everything they write down on their computer. Also you can request they read/describe it aloud to you. This might be a useful tool to use, if you feel you need a break, to slow the pace down and get a breather. It's in their own PIP Assessment booklet, on pg 9. Exercise your right to do this. If they talk to fast, tell them to read it again slowly. Also, if there's anything uncomfortable about the assessment room you're in e.g. not enough desk space to write notes, mention it on recording. Give a detailed description of everything you find uncomfortable about the room you're in. I really wish I had done this myself. As my room had no windows, no clock, it was basically a Guantanamo bay torture chamber. Also if the lights are too bright, say that too.

Another thing I thought of. Perhaps wait until the end of the assessment, when they ask if you have any more questions. Ask them if they are familiar with your son's/daughter's specific condition. If they say yes, ask them to give a definition of this condition in their own words. If they botch this up, it will bite them in the ass down the line. I think it might be better to say this at the end of the assessment. As if you do it at the beginning, I'm slightly concerned could be labelled as an uncooperative claimant. If you say it at the end, you've already got the assessment recorded anyway, so they can't exactly throw you out at this stage.

I had my reassessment on Monday, all of the above are things I wish I had done. If they are rude to you, don't be rude back. Just be calm and point out on recording that you thought what they said was inappropriate. If they are shown to lose their cool and be rude, they will look extremely unprofessional down the line.

The only thing I'm 100% sure about, is your chances increase a lot more if you record the assessment. You will need to bring/buy your own 2x recorders and audio tapes. I would also highly recommend 2x external microphones, as inbuilt mics on recorders are terrible. I bought my 2x external microphones for £12 each off Amazon, and they were both worth every penny. My recorders were £24 each from Argos, again, worth every penny (however, I had to return the first one, and get a speedy replacement, as it was defective). I wouldn't risk a 2x60min audio tape, get 2x 90min ones, just in case. Also you need to ring up their customer service number, and let them know at least 3 days in advance, you wish to record. They might give it to you with 2 days notice, their customer service advisers are a Russian Roulette at times, sometimes you get a decent one, other times they're aggressive & outright rude, sometimes inbetween. If you get a provocative one, might be best to just end the call. Ring back up, and you might get a better one. No point wasting time dealing with a bad one, that won't budge.

I'm still waiting to hear the result of my reassessment. I have no idea how it went. I was on enhanced daily living and standard mobility before. My assessor's report is apparently on the way to me. And I should get to see it in a week's time. Anything that was omitted from my recording, I'll be mentioning in detail in my Mandatory Reconsideration.

jaycee6

fight4justice .thanks so much for the info .I wish i knew about the recording before ,i think Ive left it a bit late as its on Monday.AM i allowed to write down my own notes on what they are saying. I am really interested to know how yours goes.Please keep me informed and i will do like wise when i do mine. Im still nervous thou

YuffieG

@jaycee6 I’m not sure but from what I recall when I asked for a mandatory reconsideration for my own assessment they asked me what points did they want me to reconsider. I even have further evidence from his school who are asking for his care plan to be changed due to his fear of stairs and that they have been unsuccessful with trying to make him a little bit more independant. They also agree that he needs supervision when he goes out as he gets distracted and he can quite easily and has done put his life at risk. The amount of times my heart has stopped when he’s tried to cross the road unthinkingly when there’s a car coming I’m surprised that it’s still beating! I just have panick attacks everytime I think about it and I’m glad that he’s had someone there to stop him from getting knocked down. I haven’t had a chance to talk to my son yet about the mandatory reconsideration because he’s too upset about missing an open day today at a special needs college that he’s looking to go to when he leaves six form (a long story but we’ve had a bit of bad luck) so I thought it best to approach him when he’s calmed down about that.

Also, they allowed me and my husband in on the assessment.

@Username_removed thank you for your response regarding mandatory reconsideration. If I were to request one would saying about my son getting distressed regarding starting an appeal about his low points score on mobility be a reasonable response as to why I haven’t asked earlier? That and the stress and anxiety of my own appeal are the only reasons why we didn’t ask for the decision to be looked at again.

I’m still unsure on how he’s going to react and I’ve had to learn to be his voice (I don’t do well in social situations either) over the years and when I went for my tribunal my husband wasn’t allowed to talk for me, he was only allowed to clarify or confirm something I wasn’t sure about (ie what date I went to see the neurologist, or the last time I actually went to the supermarket - I suffer from sensory overload and I absolutely hate the noise when I go shopping so I only go if we’re already out for another reason, like a hospital appointment and we need to get a few things on the way home) that I’m scared for him if it goes to tribunal that he’s not going to be able to answer the questions they ask him and they won’t allow me to talk.

jaycee6

yuffieG Hi did you have to let the dla know before hand that your husband was going as well or did they just let him in on the day.I seem to have conflicting info on that.

Fight4Justice

@Username_removed
I don't have any evidence to back up my claim. Which is not a good starting position, however, surely, if the assessor omits certain things from the assessor's report, that can be confirmed to of been said, via the recording. The DWP would then have to look at this in the Mandatory Reconsideration stage. I have already spoken to the DWP about this, as I know for a fact, when I was explaining certain parts of my condition, that I know to be relevant to the descriptor, she was not writing it down. By not writing it down, she's performing a diagnosis of my condition, which she is not qualified to do, it also says in Atos' own booklet, they won't try to do this.

So if the DWP do agree that certain omissions were made by the assessor, that are relevant to my condition, they would accept my appeal at this stage, based on the evidence (recording), rather than me having to go to a tribunal, whether the assessor made this omission due to gross: negligence, incompetence or misconduct. Is of no consequence to me. That's for Atos to deal with. I'm not sure if I could sue them actually, under the 2010 Equality Act, however, the assessor could perhaps get away with saying they just forgot to enter these details i.e. plead ignorance/stupidity. I guess the only way to prove it was deliberate, would be for after each answer you give, to ask the assessor to say aloud for the tape, what they have written. Which is allowed, according to pg 9 of their own PIP Assessment booklet.

I have no legal training whatsoever. So everything I've just said, is based on my own logic and reasoning. Either way, if a single thing that's relevant to my condition, was omitted from that assessor's report, that was clearly said by me on tape, affects my award, I feel I have the right to state that, and it will be up to the DWP, to decide whether the HP's diagnosis of my condition, supersedes that of my Diagnostic Assessment Report, from a qualified Clinical Psychologist.

sleepy1

Hi guys, I discussed the topic about recordings with the community a few weeks ago and got some sound advice (pun intended). Not sure if the link will work but here goes.

Audio recording medical assessments
Read more at https://community.scope.org.uk/discussions/mine#C788MXAw0RIWi1Bx.99

Fight4Justice

Username_removed said:

I’m afraid you’re coming at this from the wrong tack. The fact a HCP omits something in itself is not grounds for an MR. It depends on whether what was omitted would have changed the recommended points score. There’s also no legal obligation on a HCP to note everything you say. It would be impractical and near impossible. You have no basis for an EA 10 claim at this stage. You may have cause for complaint to the assessment provider, especially if you can show they breached the DWP provider guidance (Google it) but that doesn’t take away from the need to do an MR

It’s also not a given that a HCP omission means they’re offering a diagnosis. Unless their report gives you an entirely different diagnosis then you simply can’t assert that. It’s almost unheard of for a provider to offer a different diagnosis. They will simply be recommending the points you do or don’t score. It’s unlikely your diagnosis will be in dispute so a diagnostic report from a Clinical Psych will be largely irrelevant unless it clearly addresses which points you ought to score.

Again, there are no automatic grounds for MR and you are mistaken if you proceed on the assumption you have enough to avoid an appeal. Providing DWP with an independently transcribed copy of your recording will help but it still doesn’t establish that you score enough points and, ultimately, that’s what you need to do. If you yourself are not clear what points you score then you can be pretty confident you don’t yet have enough focus on the right things to make your case.

The 3 points I bolded are what's relevant to my specific case. What I think will be omitted, will have changed the points score. As I have received points for the exact example I used, in every PIP Assessment I've been to.

I didn't say I wouldn't need to do an MR. I said I wouldn't have to go to tribunal, if I won at the MR stage.

On the recorder, for one example I used for a descriptor. She says something like, that is not relevant for PIP. When I in fact know it is, because I've received points for it. Maybe diagnosis is the wrong word, her ignorance of what does, and does not meet points criteria, may have costed me points, that I would have received, if she had written it down, because she did not write it down, the DM will not get to read it, and decide for themselves. And like I said, I know it does warrant me points, because I have received points for it in the part. Therefore, the recording should give me points, that I would not have received, without said recording. As it would be her word against, mine. If I can prove my assessor to be "unreliable", in terms of not writing down things that I said, that do in fact meets points criteria, surely that will work in my favour. And means recording your PIP assessment, is hugely beneficial. As without the recording, it's he said, she said, which means I'm on the tribunal waiting list again. I want to win this at MR, and not wait for another tribunal. I believe I can do this, if she has omitted things I said, that would have gotten me points, had she wrote them down.

I could just be being paranoid, and she wrote down the things that I said, after I left, perhaps she re-listened to the audio herself later on. Just to avoid getting into a tricky situation. I can't see any downside in recording, apart from the initial outlay of cash to buy the recorder. I think if you record, you take that "easy target sign" off your back. If you don't record, they can make up the whole report, and there's nothing you can do about it. It's your word against theirs, even if you bring someone with you, their evidence won't count for much, as they're not independent. A recording is irrefutable evidence.

Fight4Justice

Yes I agree completely. My entire "mental health based" PIP claim is entirely reliant on my Diagnostic Assessment Report (DAR) for Asperger's syndrome. I also typically get 1 point for having long term depression, as I use an alarm to remind me to take my medication. I notice in the DM reasoning comments section, they always say something like "this is consistent with your condition" every time they give their reason for awarding me points. Without my DAR it would just be assertions I'm making, I agree with that. At my last reassessment in Nov 2015. My Daily living dropped from 14 to 6, meaning I got nothing. They let me keep standard mobility. I appealed, got nothing at MR stage, but at tribunal in Apr 2016, my Daily living total was increased from 6 to 15. I believe I would have got more if I had prepared. In the past, I use to wrongly assume that assessors and tribunal panel people cared about you, they don't, all they seem to care about is what you can prove by evidence, which I guess is something you agree with.

Some examples of "easy" points I use to miss out on. For "Washing & Bathing", due to my ignorance, I didn't know you could get 2 points for needing a handrail in the shower. Also that you could get 2 points for needing to be prompted to wear "appropriate clothes", these are 4 points I should have been getting all along, instead, due to lack of prep and ignorance, I didn't realise it. I'm also trying to fight for 2 points for "taking nutrition", by needing to use an alarm to remind myself to eat at certain parts of the day. I'd also like to point out, that I'm not trying to "game" the system, these are actually things I've been doing, all my life. As in the past, I would only eat in the evening. My understanding of the word "aid", is it's anything that could help someone overcome a "mental" or "physical" impairment. If my condition means that I'm obsessive on certain tasks, and needing reminding via an alarm to eat, at regular intervals throughout the day, to avoid binge eating all at once in the evening, that surely is the definition of an "aid" I'm using. I'm not sure if that will work, but I brought it up at my PIP reassessment, and my assessor dismissed it out of hand. So you can be sure, if I'm forced to go to MR, I'm bringing it up.

My core points come from something in Asperger's called the "social triad". Social interaction, communication (verbal) and imagination. I have always scored 4 points for "engaging with other people, and "verbal communication". I think in this last reassessment I may have messed up and lost my 4 points for "verbal communication". As the assessor asked me "if I have trouble using the phone", my response was something like, I only speak to my parents usually, my dad by sms text message, my mother I have to speak to on the phone, as she can't write in English. Fortunately, I used other examples of "verbal communication" difficulties, at different times throughout the assessment, that demonstrated my need for help with "complex" verbal communication. The exact example I used is needing help from my dad speaking to the bank. He needs to explain things to me, as I will miss out important information, without another person, if it's explained to me via verbal communication. What I'm unsure about is, if I give examples out of order during an assessment, can they still be counted? Or does my evidence have to be admitted exactly when the assessor is covering that specific descriptor. My hope is, that as long as I said it during the assessment, it will still count, it's up to the assessor to put what I say, into the correct box. At least, that's what I'm going to be arguing for, if "verbal communication" gets dropped from 4 to 0. I feel the assessor is trying to make the case, that because I can have a phone call conversation with a non English native speaker, that means I can handle ALL phone conversations, which is a big assumption to make, but I obviously should not have opened the door for this possibility at all.

I now think it's best to see these PIP Assessments as a "game". Lets say we know for a fact, under fair circumstances, a claimant would be entitled to 20 points for daily living. It's the job of the assessor at the assessment, to do everything they can to get you to 0, that's their role in this game, it's the claimants job, to make sure they give strong enough examples, and survive the onslaught of followup questions, to keep their points total > 12. Preparation seems to be key to winning this game. In my last game, I felt I was prepared, but the assessor was also very prepared, so I don't know who won the game yet. Also, the game will recommence at the MR, if needs be.

sleepy1

Hi F4J

I agree it has become a huge game of ping pong between the assessors, decision makers, tribunals, with ourselves and others. It is no wonder the NHS is struggling with the extra amount of disabled people suffering from stress related problems.

In one assessment when asked about eating I told her I can only eat small amounts I would probably just have a piece of toast or a bit of soup. When the report came back it said "she reguraly makes her own soup". I took this up with the DM and told them I eat ready made soup and was told "well that really doesn't matter your obviously managing to get some sustenance". I had dropped to around 7stone and it also said in the report I looked very thin and pale.

Many months later at the tribunal most of the questions were about peeling and chopping up potatoes, carrots and other veg, boiling water and lifting pans, I said I cant do that but they pushed and pushed saying but if you had to could you, in the end I said if I really had to I suppose I could. (big mistake)! It was not until afterwards when I remembered soupgate that I understood why they were asking all those questions. That's just one example of many.

With regards using aids I may be wrong but it seems you can be penalized when you do as in some cases they see it as a problem solved and you therefore need less help. So by you setting an alarm to remind you to do things it could be argued you don't need prompting as you are capable of prompting yourself. We both know things are not that simple but that is the way they think.

Anyway hope you get a good decision and don't have to go through another tribunal. Best wishes Rosie

sleepy1

Mike, yeah I should have stressed that or just said no but I'm not very good at all in those situations, I just go to pieces and end up saying all manner of stupid things. I have opted for a paper hearing this time but debating whether to change it having read the statistics of success.

When I got DLA (2012) my aids were wheelchair, walking frame, grab rails, perching stools among others. I was awarded highest amounts. I still used the same things and was in the same situation when I changed over to PIP but lost a lot of points and was reduced to low mobility and no care. Perhaps I was caught up in a DWP transition period where the rules were still being tested.
Now still in the same situation but have lost PIP altogether after a review last year!

Trouble is unless you are able to or savvy enough to keep up with where the goalposts have been moved to you don't stand much chance of scoring. I wish I had found this site earlier, the information from people like yourself is so helpful.

jaycee6

Hi all . It is the eve of the assessment ,Im feeling nervous again. Just need one question clarifying. Am I allowed to take a pen and note book to write down anything they say That I feel is relevant...or would they not like me to do this. I feel like Im going to a court case to prove my innocence,,,

sleepy1

Hi jaycee6, try not to let nerves get the better of you like I normally do. It is not a court and you have done nothing wrong, although I very much understand why you are anxious having read the plight of others going to these F2F "interviews". Thing is very few people will shout about having had a good assessment or outcome so your mainly reading the worst of it.

Pen/Paper your going there to represent your daughter so yes do so, but keep it simple.......Log the time you arrive and the time the interview starts and ends. Have a list of subject headings ready they are likely to ask about and the ones you think they should, write down beforehand with a gap underneath so you can make quick notes or just tick them off. Most of the time after asking a question they will be typing away on their computer, while they are doing that take the time to update your notes.

They usually ask if you have any questions at the end so it might be worth jotting a few down......such as: How much do you know about my daughters condition? Do you think it will improve? What will you be basing your opinion on? Why have you not asked me/her about xyz?
You will probably be much more experienced than they are......inform them of this where necessary!

Don't get too hung up on taking notes, the main thing is your there to tell them all the things about your daughters condition and how it affects her and wasting too much time trying to write everything down will only be a big distraction. Write it all down when you get home, whilst fresh in your mind.

Sending you and your daughter my best wishes X rosie

Pippa_Alumni

Hi @jaycee6, how did you get on?

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