PIP Mandatory Reconsideration

louise91

Hi everyone, after reading some posts I've decided to join the forum to see if anyone can offer me some advice.

My mum was on high rate DLA for both daily living and mobility for many years. She had her PIP face to face assessment at home and she received a letter today awarding her with 8 points for daily living activities but nothing for mobility.  

On the decision letter it states she can walk 200m without stopping or being breathless etc but the assessor didn't even see her walk so I'm not sure how they came to this decision?

I felt quite confident that she would be eligible for the higher rate mobility as she has many health problems; many of which do effect her breathing and mobility. 

What was put on her form was: 
Anxiety/Depression
Angina
Asthma
COPD
Fibromyalgia
Kidney Disease
Sciatica
Degenerative Discs in back
Severe neck pain
Bursitis of both hips
Issues with her eyes
Severe lower back pain
Migraines
Hearing Loss in both ears

Even with all this, she was awarded 0 points for mobility? Has anyone any suggestions how I can try my best to ensure that the reconsideration goes in her favour? She cannot possibly use public transport or a taxi etc and she feels like she's going to be totally isolated when they take her car from her. Would really appreciate any help.

Matilda

Disability Rights UK site (DR) has a good guide to PIP appeals.  Unfortunately, only 20% of MRs succeed whereas 65% of tribunal appeals do.  

There is this reconsideration letter tool which will generate a letter for you.

http://www.advicenow.org.uk/pip-tool 

PIP is awarded for how the conditions affect your daily living and mobility, not for the conditions themselves.  The assessor not watching your mum walk is one good ground for appeal!  Take a look at the list of the mobility descriptors on the DR site.  Which walking distance box did your mum tick on the claim form?

Your mum has to describe her walking difficulties, e.g. can she only walk up to 20m before she needs to stop and rest for a few minutes before continuing? And walking should be measured outdoors using pavements and kerbs.  The 50% rule applies, i.e. she has to have at least 4 bad days out of 7.

Have you asked DWP for a copy of the assessor's report?

louise91

She also has a hearing aid and was awarded 0 points for communication? They blatantly lie, its so frustrating! The form was originally filled out by Citizens advice so I can't remember. Is there anywhere I can find all options that would maybe help jog my memory? Genuinely, there are very few days were my mum isn't in absolute agony. I'm more surprised when she has good days. She couldn't live without painkillers. Yeah I asked them over the phone to send it out to me. Hopefully it won't take a fortnight to arrive like the decision letter!

That tool is great, thank you!!

duckett123

like lots of people you have to fight like I have said meney times on this site get as much help as  you can health visitors  doctors letters the best people are you local health care officer at your local council they will act for you, plus make list of lies they told about you snd it with your MR , recorded post it so you no they had it don't give in to them.

kevin888

As soon as you get the copy of the assessors report (PA 4) go through each of the activities you don,t agree with, probably all of them! Then elaborate on the points you think should have been scored on.  The more you send the better. I scored zero points at first at tribunal I had 33 points. If the MR fails please go to tribunal it may be a long wait, mine was 33 weeks but had all my benefit backpaid. 
Post all letters recorded delivery to be signed for so they can't loose it! Good luck

CockneyRebel

Hi louise

It is important to understand the points system, descriptors and criteria for a PIP award

Have a look at the B&W self test to get an idea

http://www.mybenefitsandwork.co.uk/pip/indexxx.php

CR

louise91

Thanks for the advice everyone! I went through the self assessment and with honest answers my mum would be entitled to the higher rate on both! 

louise91

Just another quick question - the assessor actually asked what one of the health conditions on the form was, surely a trained medical professional should be aware of the conditions presented to them, otherwise the report cannot be deemed accurate?

Matilda

Many assessors are only paramedics so know little if anything about most claimants' medical conditions.

louise91

Matilda said:

Many assessors are only paramedics so know little if anything about most claimants' medical conditions.

She told us she was a nurse, the condition in question was not something unusual or out of the ordinary. It was the medical term for neck pain. Would highlighting something like this aid the re-decision do you think? 

Matilda

It might or might not help your MR as PIP is awarded for how the conditions affect you not the conditions themselves.  But no harm referring to the assessor's lack of medical knowledge as this might cast doubt on her professional knowledge as of course a nurse could be expected to know the terms for common conditions.

mikehughescq

Your original post focused on the number of conditions. It's important to understand that this is irrelevant. What matters is the impact of those conditions. It is not, for example, a given that someone scores points for having a hearing aid. It would very much depend on whether that was one ear or two; the type of hearing loss; whether the would have to be removed when bathing or out in wet weather etc. 

Focusing on the level of knowledge of the HCP is largely a waste of time. Each has their own knowledge from their own field and then about 7 working days training on a range of conditions and some disability awareness training. They are not required to have comprehensive medical knowledge as they're not assessing medical conditions. They are looking at the functional consequences of impairments. Those are very different things and will also vary hugely from person to person. 

If the HCP recorded things which did not happen or which contradict your functional results from consultants then that is worthy of challenge but again that's a different thing. 

louise91

mikehughescq said:

Your original post focused on the number of conditions. It's important to understand that this is irrelevant. What matters is the impact of those conditions. It is not, for example, a given that someone scores points for having a hearing aid. It would very much depend on whether that was one ear or two; the type of hearing loss; whether the would have to be removed when bathing or out in wet weather etc. 

Focusing on the level of knowledge of the HCP is largely a waste of time. Each has their own knowledge from their own field and then about 7 working days training on a range of conditions and some disability awareness training. They are not required to have comprehensive medical knowledge as they're not assessing medical conditions. They are looking at the functional consequences of impairments. Those are very different things and will also vary hugely from person to person. 

If the HCP recorded things which did not happen or which contradict your functional results from consultants then that is worthy of challenge but again that's a different thing. 

My original post listed her conditions.  What is frustrating is that the impact of those conditions has been explained and ignored and I find it idiotic to say someone has no mobility issues when they have a respiratory conditions, 2 heart complaints and physical pain caused by a number of those conditions - backed up with medical records.  Whilst I know HCP will not have background knowledge on all ailments, I find it ridiculous that she wasn't aware of the medical term for chronic neck pain.  Limited mobility with your neck but no points for mobility?  The whole system is a joke and people that deserve the benefit are being deprived and put through stress that they don't need. 

Matilda

The mobility descriptors only cover walking ability or planning journeys.  Take a look at the list of descriptors on the Disability Rights UK website.  Difficulty moving ones neck would be covered by daily living activities, e.g. washing, dressing.

mikehughescq

Limited mobility within the neck could absolutely be relevant for mobility activity 1 but it would depend on the extent of the limitation. A bit of stiffness and pain is very different from the sort of head position and rigidity that would mean you couldn’t read signs; couldn’t see hazards and so on. 

It would also be relevant to the majority of daily living activities such as eating, cooking, communication etc.

louise91

Would neck pain accompanied by sciatica which restricts moving the head up and down and from side to side be considered for mobility? Also are drs letters helpful in MR? GP is very surprised at lack of points and has provided a letter stating limited mobility and inability to go out alone or use public transport etc.  Hoping it will help.  Thanks for all the help guys, its a stressful time. It’s nice to have some advice

duckett123

if you have had consultant letters, reports on scans etc you may have chance to claim some sort of mobility rate , but they may say treatment can help and it may not be for long term illness its one of those where it could go either way but always don't give up hope and good luck

mikehughescq

louise91 said:

Would neck pain accompanied by sciatica which restricts moving the head up and down and from side to side be considered for mobility? Also are drs letters helpful in MR? GP is very surprised at lack of points and has provided a letter stating limited mobility and inability to go out alone or use public transport etc.  Hoping it will help.  Thanks for all the help guys, its a stressful time. It’s nice to have some advice

I don’t see that it limits distance but it’s an option for following a route. Again, depends on the actual position and extent.

louise91

mikehughescq said:

louise91 said:

Would neck pain accompanied by sciatica which restricts moving the head up and down and from side to side be considered for mobility? Also are drs letters helpful in MR? GP is very surprised at lack of points and has provided a letter stating limited mobility and inability to go out alone or use public transport etc.  Hoping it will help.  Thanks for all the help guys, its a stressful time. It’s nice to have some advice

I don’t see that it limits distance but it’s an option for following a route. Again, depends on the actual position and extent.

If neck and back pain limits movement, its unsafe for someone to drive if they can't turn their head fully to be able to see clearly and emerge safely from a junction?

mikehughescq

Then they wouldn’t have a licence and the only discussion would be about walking! 

louise91

mikehughescq said:

Then they wouldn’t have a licence and the only discussion would be about walking! 

So you believe disabled people shouldn't drive then? 

mikehughescq

That’s the exact opposite of what I said. You described someone with movement so limited they would be unsafe to drive. My response to that was that it’s unlikeky to come up as most people who are unsafe to drive either don’t or will find that the question as to whether they ought comes up from an appeal hearing.

louise91

mikehughescq said:

That’s the exact opposite of what I said. You described someone with movement so limited they would be unsafe to drive. My response to that was that it’s unlikeky to come up as most people who are unsafe to drive either don’t or will find that the question as to whether they ought comes up from an appeal hearing.

The thing about her neck and back problems is that they vary; there are days when she is 100% unfit to drive (and won't) other days she's a bit more free with her movement but still would not have the same movement in her neck in comparison to someone like myself for example.  I am a driving instructor and have taught people who are paralysed on one whole side to drive so to say someone shouldn't have a licence due to limitations with their neck is unjust.

sleepy1

My friend lost her child because a woman in her late 60's during a driving lesson mounted the pavement and crashed into the babies pram, killing the baby and injuring my friend and other pedestrians.  The woman had already failed her driving test several times!

I don't think it is just a case of health limitations but drivers (and driving instructors) should question if their capabilities are good enough to warrant being at the wheel of a potentially dangerous vehicle.

Oh and I wonder how many people drive whilst on prescribed drugs despite being told not to?

charlene

Louise99.  I wear an hearing aid in each ear.  I was awarded 2 pts on assessors assessment.  Maybe you need to explain more fully, if your mum has problems with still hearing.  

Although I wear hearing aids, my brain does not filter out background noise so to hear them people need to talk clearly and not mumble. If the don't my AIDS are useless. I have a few other issues with hearing, but that is the main one. 

charlene

Hi sleepy, as far as I know a doctor will inform D VLA, if a person should not be driving because of their medication.  Just recently my daughter. Had her licence rebuked because she is on anti psychotic drugs.

Emz1990

Hi louise91 i can imagine how stressed you are right now as I am currently going through a pip tribunal. Did you find out if they contacted your gp before they made their decision? They don't always do this and go by the previous report from the gp for dla. It might be worth looking into

mikehughescq

louise91 said:

mikehughescq said:

That’s the exact opposite of what I said. You described someone with movement so limited they would be unsafe to drive. My response to that was that it’s unlikeky to come up as most people who are unsafe to drive either don’t or will find that the question as to whether they ought comes up from an appeal hearing.

The thing about her neck and back problems is that they vary; there are days when she is 100% unfit to drive (and won't) other days she's a bit more free with her movement but still would not have the same movement in her neck in comparison to someone like myself for example.  I am a driving instructor and have taught people who are paralysed on one whole side to drive so to say someone shouldn't have a licence due to limitations with their neck is unjust.

Teaching someone to drive, and their ability to drive safely, are two largely different things. I don’t know them and can’t say whether they ought or ought not to drive but you’re not making an especially strong case for them.

louise91

Emz1990 said:

Hi louise91 i can imagine how stressed you are right now as I am currently going through a pip tribunal. Did you find out if they contacted your gp before they made their decision? They don't always do this and go by the previous report from the gp for dla. It might be worth looking into

Hi Emz, no they never contacted GP! Hope you get the outcome your hoping for with your tribunal, its not even my own claim and I'm stressed to the max! 

louise91

charlene said:

Louise99.  I wear an hearing aid in each ear.  I was awarded 2 pts on assessors assessment.  Maybe you need to explain more fully, if your mum has problems with still hearing.  

Although I wear hearing aids, my brain does not filter out background noise so to hear them people need to talk clearly and not mumble. If the don't my AIDS are useless. I have a few other issues with hearing, but that is the main one. 

Hi Charlene, it was explained on the form and during the F2F that mum has hearing difficulties and she is currently waiting for an appointment for her hearing. I had to repeat some of the questions to her during the assessment and you have to speak clearly whilst looking at her for her to be able to understand you. Assessor blatantly lied is all that happened unfortunately! My mums the very same, if you speak low or away from her she can't understand you. 

louise91

sleepy1 said:

My friend lost her child because a woman in her late 60's during a driving lesson mounted the pavement and crashed into the babies pram, killing the baby and injuring my friend and other pedestrians.  The woman had already failed her driving test several times!

I don't think it is just a case of health limitations but drivers (and driving instructors) should question if their capabilities are good enough to warrant being at the wheel of a potentially dangerous vehicle.

Oh and I wonder how many people drive whilst on prescribed drugs despite being told not to?

Oh my goodness, that's horrific that was a very irresponsible instructor and driver.  I'm glad that my mum will not drive if she doesn't feel well enough to do so.  

sleepy1

Hi @louise91, sorry if my post was a bit blunt and yes it was horrific in more ways than anyone could ever imagine. 
I used my driving licence as id at my pip assessment this week and was asked if the DVLA had talked to me about revoking it, my answer was no but I would not even consider driving anyway.

In my opinion it makes no difference on peoples disabilities it is more a case of them using common sense (like your mum) knowing when they are fit to drive or not.  As a driving instructor you must have had some very scary moments and thought hell no this person should not be driving and no matter how good you are at teaching them they will never learn!

ATB Rosie

allyt2210

Hi,we applied for pip for my wife due to her I’ll health,type 2 diabetes,fibromyalgia,sleep apnea,depression.had the f2f,well we thought it all went good.we got our descision and she is entitled to standard daily living part but no mobility,it’s a absolute joke the challenges my wife has to go through everyday,trying to walk around,get out of bed the list goes on! We have just send the letter back for a MR.so see how this goes.its just not fair the system is all wrong.