PIP, DLA and AA
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Wish it was all over

kah22kah22 Member Posts: 52 Courageous
Well we got our assessment back standard care 11 points, no mobility. A lot of people get 11 points, I wonder what !!!

Anyway we are going for a MR. It’s a bipolar case and while doing some research I came across this very interesting case law Q1599/2016 originally to do with epilepsy but also applies to other conditions like Mental Health it states:
that ‘the decision maker should look at whether there is a real possibility that harm might occur and also at how great the harm might be. The greater the potential harm, the less likely it needs to be that it would happen on any specific occasion.
At paragraph 56, the tribunal held that:
“An assessment that an activity cannot be carried out safely does not require that the occurrence of harm is “more likely than not”. In assessing whether a person can carry out an activity safely, a tribunal must consider whether there is a real possibility that cannot be ignored of harm occurring, having regard to the nature and gravity of the feared harm in the particular case. It follows that both the likelihood of the harm occurring and the severity of the consequences are relevant. The same approach applies to the assessment of a need for supervision

I found that very interesting and at the moment I’m trying to form an argument saying that rather than needing prompting we need supervision. That extra 2 points would push us over into enhanced and give us an argument for mobility

Has anyone on the Forum went down that road, especially with that bit of case law and how did you argue it. I have a feeling I should be concentrating on the words the likelihood of the harm occurring

But how to argue it?


Kevin

 

Replies

  • atlas46atlas46 Community champion Posts: 827 Pioneering
    Hi

    Can I ask which activity are you considering, as some have same scores for either prompting or supervision.

    I should point out, the DWP can review the whole claim.

    atlas46
  • sandyp196sandyp196 Member Posts: 133 Pioneering
    I recieved pip for mental health illness. I recieved in 2015 EDL and SM. but this time they took the mobility off me. The assessor scored me 10 points for overhhelming psychologicall distress. The DM reduced it to 4 points for needing prompting rather than supervision.  I only have until Monday to decide whether to request an MR.  The decision maker didn't tell me why it was reduced. I'm really scared of asking for an MR in case I lose the daily living. But I spend about £60 -£70 a month on taxis and paying people petrol. I really did use the money for its purpose. 
    I'm going to struggle without it. I don't know what to do. 
    I thought the government were putting a stop to discriminating against mental health and the mobility element of pip. Obviously not when the assessor who met me, came to my home, scored me 10 points and then some desk jockey who hasn't met me took the points off. My family really want me to appeal but I'm so scared. I woukd appeal in a heartbeat if not for the fact we are all threatened and controlled by them saying an appeal could be punished with losing the entire award. 
    How can noone in power think there's anything wrong with this?  
    It's all so crazy and confusing.  
    I'm lucky that I got the Daily living, am I pushing my luck to appeal? I don't know and I have to make that decision by Monday the latest. 
    I will be interested to know what you do original poster.  
  • mayfairmayfair Member Posts: 39 Connected
    @kah22 wishing you the best of luck with everything, I really hope all works out for you 
  • atlas46atlas46 Community champion Posts: 827 Pioneering
    Hi

    Have you got access to Disability Rights hand book for April 2018/19 , in particular page 40.

    Psychological stress.

    On 16.3.17, the government introduced restrictions to Descriptors 1c, 1d and1f, this was thrown out by the High Court on 21/12/17.

    Have you got the assessor report for your 2015 claim, when you got 10 pts and what does the assessor say for 2018 review.

    Has anything changed over three years?

    Hope this helps.

  • kah22kah22 Member Posts: 52 Courageous
    edited April 2018
    atlas46 said:
    Hi

    Can I ask which activity are you considering, as some have same scores for either prompting or supervision.

    I should point out, the DWP can review the whole claim.

    atlas46
    My main arguemement would be Preparing Food, and I’m going for Supervision.

    Briefly it will be: she’s spilled boiling water on a few occasions, she’ll go and sit down during the cooking, has let pans boil dry. We’ve discovered out of date meat, chicken, sausages in fridge, some of it off, so that’s a danger repreparing food, I think. So I’m going for safety, reliability.  

    There is also the point that the HP has acknowledged the Safety aspect when she’s high, so I’m wondering if I can use the case law above in regard to depression and psychosis

    if I can get that case to apply then it will push her over the top and also give us a foot hold into mobility using the same case law.  It might fail now but I’m thinking of the thrall the DWP will be carrying out later on.

    Kevin
    atlas see your messages
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  • kah22kah22 Member Posts: 52 Courageous
    Rather than me explaining it have a look HERE .  You’ll have to do some research afterwards but that should start you.  To be honest I wouldn’t have the experience to explain it to someone else but I would be glad to hear views

    But as I understand it it has all to do with the safety factor. It came about when the Upper Tribunal examined the case of three individuals with epilepsy and in that decisionns the done away with the 50 percent rule SEE HERE

     
  • kah22kah22 Member Posts: 52 Courageous
    Sorry the link in my OP was incorrect it should have been CPIP/3272/2016
  • whistleswhistles Member Posts: 1,603 Disability Gamechanger
    I dont follow how bringing in a case law will help your MR. It's about how you are effected. 
    You need to be adding in proof that you need supervision not that you found a case law. 

    It's difficult I think on some questions.
    To my thinking if you really need supervision to use a cooker- safely and reliability, you might say you can't use it. I cannot cook safely or reliably, I would require supervision- but the risk is too high my common sense steps in and I don't touch it. I scored two points.

    Epilepsy is considered fluctuating and that's scored differently hence the case laws you found.

    I also don't understand your connection with mobility. You either qualify for that or you don't. You can receive that without care and care without mobility.

    Do not follow me, I don't know where I am going.
  • ColourfullColourfull Member Posts: 59 Courageous
    Hope all goes well for you and it goes in your favour.

    Colourfull.
  • WaylayWaylay Member Posts: 918 Pioneering
    @Victoriad For example, agoraphobia, severe anxiety around other people, etc.
  • whistleswhistles Member Posts: 1,603 Disability Gamechanger
    How does that mean you cannot plan and follow a journey to begin with t?
    I get that you cannot go out and cannot deal with lots of people, therefore you would need to work out when to go and how to go that's not imo what that question is asking you. 
    Do not follow me, I don't know where I am going.
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  • sue66sue66 Member Posts: 124 Pioneering
    Victoriad said:
    What on Earth has preparing food got to do with mobility?

    I suppose it depends on if its walking to prepare the food that causes the problem or mentally needs help. Would have thought if its mentally then this would come under care component. Years ago when folk applied for DLA mobility was all about just this, an ailment that affected your legs and walking distance, i know cos hubby got higher rate but although he is now worse PIP gave him standard rate which he never appealed against and didn't want to risk losing even this and grateful quite honestly to have come out with anything at all going by all the stories ive been reading on hear the past year.Clearly really severe cases being given nil points  :(
  • sandyp196sandyp196 Member Posts: 133 Pioneering
    Victoriad said:
    Waylay said:
    @Victoriad For example, agoraphobia, severe anxiety around other people, etc.
    Hi @Waylay
    Ok I see where this is leading to....but dies it mean that your legs don’t physically function in the same way as someone disabled by missing digits on hands and feet?

    I don’t want to belittle agoraphobia ,anxiety ( having MH issues myself) but surely we should all be responsible for our own health?
    take some ownership of said health?......and do something to try to overcome these obstacles ......god forbid me from suggesting ...that we TRY and help ourselves.


    I can't believe I'm reading this on this site of all places. As a sufferer I find it personally offensive. You obviously have no idea what agarophobia and social phobia is like to deal with on a daily basis. Plus psychosis which accompanies some mental health conditions like mine. You DO belittle it and you obviously meant to. 
    If this is some of the attitudes WITHIN the disabled community then it's no wonder people with serious mental health conditions are struggling to get what they need. 
    I don't need to come to this site and read ignorant comemnts like this. It stresses me out. 
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  • sandyp196sandyp196 Member Posts: 133 Pioneering
    Victoriad said:
    Ok @sandyp196
    I am not belittling you ....I had the “temerity” to suggest that we help ourselves.....not ignorant but forward thinking.


    I am not interested in your reply. It makes things worse as you have no idea what your talking about. You ARE belittling serious mental heath conditions. I would usually try and explain the condition to back up my response but I really can't right now.  I'm too upset.
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  • whistleswhistles Member Posts: 1,603 Disability Gamechanger
    edited April 2018
    I don't think anyone is having a go at anyone here to be honest. We are all different with different conditions and if someone doesn't understand yours, it doesn't mean they are having a go. 

    And fwiw I only have an understanding of what agrophobia is, having suffered with a phobia myself. What it is, is irrelevant if it interferes with your day to day life, however it needs to effect the descriptors to get pip on the majority of days.
    What your impairment is, is irrelevant its about why it effects the descriptors and how.

    I got DLA low rate mobility before pip with an invisible condition. Pip gave me enhanced and my condition isn't any different. What is different is pip is not dla and some people won't quality. 

    I still don't see the connection to cooking and mobility. One is asking if you can cook and the other if you can walk or if you can plan and follow a journey.
    If you cannot cook because you are too tired or in too much pain after having walked to the kitchen, maybe. But they will expect you to have a stick, stall to sit on to carry on.
    Do not follow me, I don't know where I am going.
  • sandyp196sandyp196 Member Posts: 133 Pioneering
    Victoriad said:

    This was not an attempt to belittle you........



    Treatment

    A stepwise approach is usually recommended for treating agoraphobia and any underlying panic disorder.

    The steps are as follows:

    1. Find out more about your condition, the lifestyle changes you can make, and self-help techniques to help relieve symptoms. 
    2. Enrol yourself on a guided self-help programme. 
    3. Undertake more intensive treatments, such as cognitive behavioural therapy (CBT), or see if your symptoms can be controlled using medication.

    The various treatments for agoraphobia are outlined below. 

    Lifestyle changes and self-help techniques

    Learning more about agoraphobia and its association with panic disorderand panic attacks may help you control your symptoms better.

    For example, there are techniques you can use during a panic attack to bring your emotions under control. 

    Having more confidence in controlling your emotions may make you more confident coping with previously uncomfortable situations and environments.

    These self-help techniques are described below. 

    • Stay where you are – try to resist the urge to run to a place of safety during a panic attack; if you're driving, pull over and park where it's safe to do so. 
    • Focus – it's important for you to focus on something non-threatening and visible, such as the time passing on your watch, or items in a supermarket; remind yourself the frightening thoughts and sensations are a sign of panic and will eventually pass. 
    • Breathe slowly and deeply – feelings of panic and anxiety can get worse if you breathe too quickly; try to focus on slow, deep breathing while counting slowly to three on each breath in and out. 
    • Challenge your fear – try to work out what it is you fear and challenge it; you can achieve this by constantly reminding yourself that what you fear isn't real and will pass. 
    • Creative visualisation – during a panic attack, try to resist the urge to think negative thoughts, such as "disaster"; instead, think of a place or situation that makes you feel peaceful, relaxed or at ease: once you have this image in your mind, try to focus your attention on it. 
    • Don't fight an attack – trying to fight the symptoms of a panic attack can often make things worse; instead, reassure yourself by accepting that although it may seem embarrassing and your symptoms may be difficult to deal with, the attack isn't life threatening. 

    Making some lifestyle changes can also help. For example, ensure you:

    • take regular exercise – exercise can help relieve stress and tension and improve your mood 
    • have a healthy diet – a poor diet can make the symptoms of panic and anxiety worse 
    • avoid using drugs and alcohol – they may provide short-term relief, but in the long term they can make symptoms worse 
    • avoid drinks containing caffeine, such as tea, coffee or cola – caffeine has a stimulant effect and can make your symptoms worse 

    Guided self-help

    If your symptoms don't respond to these self-help techniques and lifestyle changes, your GP may recommend enrolling on a guided self-help programme.

    This involves working through self-help manuals that cover the types of issues you might be facing, along with practical advice about how to deal with them.

    A number of internet-based programmes are also available. For example, Moodjuice is an online resource designed to help you think about emotional problems and work towards resolving them.

    Guided self-help for agoraphobia is based on CBT, which aims to change unhelpful and unrealistic patterns of thinking to bring about positive changes in behaviour.

    In turn, CBT uses a type of therapy called exposure therapy, which involves being gradually exposed to the object or situation you fear and using relaxation techniques and breathing exercises to help reduce your anxiety.


    Oh so now your shouting as well.
    I feel like iv accidently stumbled into a dwp decision makers website!  
    Your obviously determined to prove your right so be my guest. People who suffer these debilitating and DISABLING conditions are used to hearing it. I just don't expect to find it on a disability support website thats all. 
  • atlas46atlas46 Community champion Posts: 827 Pioneering
    Hi @kah22

    Please check your email inbox, have sent you, my thoughts on your draft.

    atlas46
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  • sandyp196sandyp196 Member Posts: 133 Pioneering
    Victoriad said:
    I am not shouting.

    I copied and pasted the article from the NHS Choices website and added the first comment myself to explain that ......it was not an attempt to belittle you...... and that’s the font that came up automatically.


     I did not have a means at my disposal to change the font......not some sinister motive, otherwise.

    No ......it’s not a DWP decision makers website, it’s a thread on the scope forum.

    I was hoping to support you, as obviously do the NHS,as this was from the NHS choices website ,which posts current advice for medical professionals and patients alike to read and follow the advice.

    By the way, I do understand,what’s its like to be suffering from anxiety and the like, being presently under the care of the psychiatric services of a psychiatrist and a CPN and making great progress....in fact getting my driving licence back is one of the steps I will achieve soon.


    ..... but unlike yourself,at this present moment..... I do try and be positive, and I am willing to help myself, to try and overcome my difficulties,by accepting similar advice, as that given in the NHS Choices site, similar advice as given to me ,by the fortnightly visits of the CPN and monthly visit to the psychiatrist.

    By the way...you don’t have a monopoly on being a sufferer of mental health problems, the difference between us being, that I am trying to help myself overcome my present difficulties,rather than suffer unnecessarily  .......


    How dare you say that about me! You have no idea about me or my personal struggles.  You are very offensive. This site is full of comments by you where you set yourself up as having the only valid viewpoint and everyone else is wrong.
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  • ShylersShylers Member Posts: 3 Listener
    Victoriad said:
    Think positive ....it’s the only way to go.



    Sadly for some people this sometimes (or even frequently) is NOT an option open to them, despite whatever medication they may be on. 
    I know that often there is no light, not even a flicker at the end of the tunnel... everything is dark & getting darker so no matter how much I would love to think positive, my mind instead goes pragmatically & at which time there is only a downward spiral & that somehow does not seem positive. 
    It is like me being in a room full of wasps & you saying to me that I should think positive about not getting stung when realistically I am exceedingly likely to be & as I am severely allergic to them there is most definitely negativity all around...
  • atlas46atlas46 Community champion Posts: 827 Pioneering
    Hi Victoriad

    Please be on notice that I intend to have you excluded from this forum.

    atlas46
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  • sleepy1sleepy1 Member Posts: 299 Pioneering
    People come here for advice and help, not to be abused.  Please respect each other we all have our own health problems to deal with but try when we can to help.

    There are other sites available for "debates"  ............This is not Scopebook
  • debbiedo49debbiedo49 Member Posts: 2,906 Disability Gamechanger
    This is disgusting please stop
    💜🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿
    I am a fibro warrior !💜♏️
  • redhead53redhead53 Member Posts: 35 Connected
    chill out people there is a click on this site and if you do not fit you get removed so chill and think before you post i have sat here a month reading and i do not like some who post they do seem rather stern
  • whistleswhistles Member Posts: 1,603 Disability Gamechanger
    I am a bit lost why one poster has been singled out because another one finds what they asked offensive.  That question was not being directed at them personally.
    It was a question, because they don't understand something.
    We are responsible for how we feel and how we respond to a post. 

    How are some MH conditions connected to the mobility question when it is asking if you can physically walk 50 metres?
    Finding it hard to plan and follow a journey, yes, but the op is looking to score higher on cooking which gives them an argument for planning. 
    I think I said similar to @Victoriad in that I didn't get that because you if you need supervision when outdoors you do regardless, so you have submitted the evidence already.
    Do not follow me, I don't know where I am going.
  • redhead53redhead53 Member Posts: 35 Connected
    Victoriad said:
    What on Earth has preparing food got to do with mobility?

    whistles said:
    I don't think anyone is having a go at anyone here to be honest. We are all different with different conditions and if someone doesn't understand yours, it doesn't mean they are having a go. 

    And fwiw I only have an understanding of what agrophobia is, having suffered with a phobia myself. What it is, is irrelevant if it interferes with your day to day life, however it needs to effect the descriptors to get pip on the majority of days.
    What your impairment is, is irrelevant its about why it effects the descriptors and how.

    I got DLA low rate mobility before pip with an invisible condition. Pip gave me enhanced and my condition isn't any different. What is different is pip is not dla and some people won't quality. 

    I still don't see the connection to cooking and mobility. One is asking if you can cook and the other if you can walk or if you can plan and follow a journey.
    If you cannot cook because you are too tired or in too much pain after having walked to the kitchen, maybe. But they will expect you to have a stick, stall to sit on to carry on.
    one point ?if you cannot stand to prepare a meal or you lack the ability to even try that comes under mobility according to a pip da 

  • AlexAlex Posts: 1,325 Scope community team
    edited April 2018
    Good evening. I've closed this thread.

    Please make sure your messages respect other users’ views and suggestions, even if you don’t agree with them. 

    Take care to present your views tactfully and please don't get make personal attacks or judgements.

    You can read all our guidelines here. If you have any questions, you can get in touch - [email protected]
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