Employment and Support Allowance (ESA)
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What do you think about benefits sanctions?

At Scope, we want to tell Government how the system could be improved to better support disabled people who aren’t working. We wanted to started this thread for disabled people to share their views on sanctions.  

What do you think should be done differently with benefit sanctions?

If the Government stopped applying benefits sanctions, how would you feel about applying for benefits?

Feedback and ideas shared on this thread will be used anonymously to shape Scope’s contribution to the work and pensions committee inquiry in to sanctions.

Mel in Scope's Policy and Campaigns Team 

Replies

  • itsmefeeitsmefee Member Posts: 27 Connected
    I just feel that benefit sanctions are poorly understood by most of the people who they affect. I will be blunt and say that many people who find they have been sanctioned probably would not understand why even if it was laid out to them as simple as ABC, that is the issue with doing anything like this. 

    All they know is that the money they receive has been cut and these are the people who society should be supporting and caring for, not inflicting more struggle onto. 

    It is just so hard to comprehend that a government in 2018 would consider doing such a thing to the poorest and most vulnerable people in our society. 

    Benefit sanctions don't stop people applying for Benefits.  People apply for them because there is no other means of supporting themselves. it is not a lifestyle choice it is a necessity. 

    Personally I am not able to see how the Government are going to be able to keep this momentum up, especially with the roll out of Universal Credit as well. Keeping tabs on people takes staff and time which is something they don't have. It is going to cost them more in administration and implementation of sanctions and Universal Credit than they will save. Sometimes it is better to cut your losses and just accept that some people will cheat the system. But for those who don't that are still being sanctioned it really isn't great. 


  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,370 Disability Gamechanger
    Bottom line is as follows: 

    1) There is simply no research which exists across the planet to show that sanctions work. The evidence they do harm is either growing or overwhelming depending on who you listen to.

    2) We are the only country which removes income completely in some sanction scenarios. That is embarrassing and inhumane. 
  • debbiedo49debbiedo49 Member Posts: 2,906 Disability Gamechanger
    Sanctions are wrong. For every benefit we have to apply for we have to prove we are entitled to it. It’s not an easy process. Instead of removing all funds by sanction the DWP should have to prove any claims are wrong. There needs to be more qualified advisors at jobcentre plus and on helplines as people are not being given correct advice or the time they require to pursue any issues they have. 
    There must be more leniency. If people have genuine reasons for issues they have with meeting their jcp conditions then they should be treated fairly not sanctioned. 
    At the very least when you remove someone’s income DWP should supply vouchers for food and energy and telephone 
    💜🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿
    I am a fibro warrior !💜♏️
  • WaylayWaylay Member Posts: 918 Pioneering
    Sanctions have the opposite effect that they're intended to; there's tons of good research out there that shows it.

    Personally, I'm terrified of becoming subject to sanctions (UC rolls out here in Oct., and I've had to fight for months to be put into the ESA support group a couple of times). I know that I'll end up sanctioned multiple times. My back spasms leave me unable to move, a fair amount  of the time, and my mental health problems often leave me unable to eat, wash, or dress. If I'm constantly missing medical appointments, what are the chances that I'll be able to get to the Job Centre on a regular basis? 


  • whistleswhistles Member Posts: 1,603 Disability Gamechanger
    UC will take a while to migrate people. The problem comes when they decide you are no longer eligible for what you were on and forcing people to claim it, or you have a change in circumstances. For here simply moving house in the same LA would do this.

    Can someone answer what the system pre ESA was. Were there medicals? Didn't you just send in sick notes and that was it. I can only recall the odd medical but my memory is rubbish. 

    Who assesses the medical for ESA? We hear lots about the bad pip system and assessors but we barely hear about the ESA not understanding your condition. So are these people trained doctors-pre esa they were I believe.

    Do not follow me, I don't know where I am going.
  • MelWilkesMelWilkes Member Posts: 18 Connected
    Thanks everyone who has taken the time to share their views so far. It's really helpful to understand what people feel isn't working about the current system. 

    Building on that, would anyone like to share their ideas on how the system could be improved? 

    For example, what types of support should be available to disabled people on low incomes? 

    Finally, if anyone reading this has experienced a benefit sanction and would be open to sharing their experiences with me to help shape Scope's recommendations to the Government, please do get in touch. Outside of this thread, I can be reached on [email protected]

    Thanks again, 

    Mel 
  • littleruthie123littleruthie123 Member Posts: 490 Pioneering
    Leaving people too starve too death and worse. Leaving people with children with no electric nappies etc.how on earth can they get away with it .its disquesting  and inhumane and vile!
  • littleruthie123littleruthie123 Member Posts: 490 Pioneering
    Also creates homelessness !viscous circle
  • whistleswhistles Member Posts: 1,603 Disability Gamechanger
    I would actually drop the disabled term. It's been discussed that you can't be registered as such. So less able would be better maybe.
    I don't see myself as disabled, I  would be offended if others did.

    Sanctions effect all, not just less able. There are longterm ill people out there who get sanctioned. 

    If the law says I need xx to live because, it MUST be unlawful to take that away.
    Do not follow me, I don't know where I am going.
  • littleruthie123littleruthie123 Member Posts: 490 Pioneering
    Sanctions don't happen in the support group so I wouldent worry .I no job seekers get sancations and I'm guessing  universal credits?
  • whistleswhistles Member Posts: 1,603 Disability Gamechanger
    Sanctions don't happen in the support group so I wouldent worry .I no job seekers get sancations and I'm guessing  universal credits?
    And if you fail the review and get moved to wrag and miss appointments they do stop the ESA. 
    There have been people on here that's happened to. 
    There are people on here going through the review.
    The system is a mess.
    Do not follow me, I don't know where I am going.
  • littleruthie123littleruthie123 Member Posts: 490 Pioneering
    Wow Dident think of that my God gets worse .perhaps an m.p could join this group and look through everyone's comments ,if only 
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0 Listener
    Leave the disabled their carers alone and target the work shy.
  • aaronw3440aaronw3440 Member Posts: 54 Connected
    Sanctions are wrong. For every benefit we have to apply for we have to prove we are entitled to it. It’s not an easy process. Instead of removing all funds by sanction the DWP should have to prove any claims are wrong. There needs to be more qualified advisors at jobcentre plus and on helplines as people are not being given correct advice or the time they require to pursue any issues they have. 
    There must be more leniency. If people have genuine reasons for issues they have with meeting their jcp conditions then they should be treated fairly not sanctioned. 
    At the very least when you remove someone’s income DWP should supply vouchers for food and energy and telephone 
    Most sanctions are needed especially for likes of job seekers allowance as the claimant for job seekes or now universal credit is you must spend 35 hours a week job searching and attending appointments and interviews set up by your work coach and log down everything youre doing for looking for work even if it means volunteering in a charity shop which counts for part of the 35 hours a week and quite a lot of people don't bother doing that because they can't be bothered or they dont bother attending interviews or appointments with their work coach  and it needs to be a very valid reason  for the claimant not doing so for example doctors or hospital appointments you need proof of why you didn't attend what's required and if you got no proof or anything then they put the sanction on for not doing what is required of you  which can be anywhere as little as 2 weeks up to 3 years with no money
  • GeoarkGeoark Community champion, Scope Volunteer Posts: 1,347 Disability Gamechanger
    andyjd said:
    Leave the disabled their carers alone and target the work shy.
    Hi @andyjd that is fine but it depends on your interpretation of work shy. For the tories this includes many of the disabled.

    As an individual I stood alone.
    As a member of a group I did things.
    As part of a community I helped to create change!

  • WaylayWaylay Member Posts: 918 Pioneering
    @aaronw3440 Prove it. People are sanctioned for ridiculous things - being 5 minutes late because their bus broke down, missing an appointment because they were in hospital, or at a funeral which they'd told the JC about in advance, not doing a job search on Xmas Day, etc.

    In addition, sanctions DON'T work. Putting someone in enormous financial stress moves them further from working, because they're focussing on how to put food on the table, not whether they're ready for a job interview!
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0 Listener
    Geoark said:
    andyjd said:
    Leave the disabled their carers alone and target the work shy.
    Hi @andyjd that is fine but it depends on your interpretation of work shy. For the tories this includes many of the disabled.
    My definition of work shy is those jobseekers who have no desire to get a job and refuse to job interviews. 
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0 Listener
    Waylay said:
    @aaronw3440 Prove it. People are sanctioned for ridiculous things - being 5 minutes late because their bus broke down, missing an appointment because they were in hospital, or at a funeral which they'd told the JC about in advance, not doing a job search on Xmas Day, etc.

    In addition, sanctions DON'T work. Putting someone in enormous financial stress moves them further from working, because they're focussing on how to put food on the table, not whether they're ready for a job interview!
    Don't go to Margate jobcentre, then they sanction you for not putting names of the local papers on your job log.  

    A few years ago they sanctioned 3000 claimants to reach the government target. Even though most of them stuck to their agreement.
  • GeoarkGeoark Community champion, Scope Volunteer Posts: 1,347 Disability Gamechanger
    andyjd said:
    Geoark said:
    andyjd said:
    Leave the disabled their carers alone and target the work shy.
    Hi @andyjd that is fine but it depends on your interpretation of work shy. For the tories this includes many of the disabled.
    My definition of work shy is those jobseekers who have no desire to get a job and refuse to job interviews. 
    Same as the government then. After all it was one of the justifications in reducing the benefits for those in the wrag group who were taking a lot longer to transition into work compared to JSA.

    As an individual I stood alone.
    As a member of a group I did things.
    As part of a community I helped to create change!

  • feirfeir Member Posts: 396 Pioneering
    Sanctions send out the message that you don't deserve enough money to live off. They should scrap them. 100% get rid. No person needs the threat of their basic income being removed at any time.

    My oldest son kept getting sanctioned, often because he had done things the job centre asked him to do but they hadn't got it on file that he'd done them, occasionally for things that he had or hadn't done. Eventually he got diagnosed with a mental illness and even he said things like constantly having no money contributed to that. They stopped sanctioning him around this point as he got support from someone for his mental illness and they contacted the job centre and told them what was going on with him and recommended they stop sanctioning him.
  • TopkittenTopkitten Member Posts: 1,263 Pioneering
    Firstly sanctions are necessary but they should only be applied for good reasons. Unfortunately our systems don't work very well and are sometimes applied because the people doing it haven't been trained properly. I have known many people on benefits over the last decade and only one was sanctioned. Despite her moans and groans they were for good reasons, she just didn't think they should apply to her. Mind you, none of even her close friends really believed she deserved the benefits she received nor was she really disabled.

    I have seen a few people complaining on TV and found those cases exactly the same. For example, one lady was complaining for her mother because her mum had been sanctioned for not finding work. Despite living in this country for 5 years the woman refused to learn or speak nothing but her native Romanian and this meant she could not find a job. Not surprising really but, simply because the case was on TV, the sanctions were removed shortly before the program aired. Such cases need to be sanctioned, it is not the purpose of this country to support such people.

    I did say though that there should be good and fair reasons. I think it is disgusting that people can be sanctioned based on a single anonymous telephone call. This happened to my daughter when she had 2 young children and her husband had been forced to move out because of aggravated assault on her. Her neighbours didn't like her and did like him so anonymously complained causing my daughter much distress until the investigation proved the call completely unfounded.

    TK
    "I'm on the wrong side of heaven and the righteous side of hell" - from Wrong side of heaven by Five Finger Death Punch.
  • leeCalleeCal Member Posts: 3,014 Disability Gamechanger
    Sanctions create crimeless victims. 
    Some years ago some advisors from the USA couldn’t believe how generous and easy to obtain our benefits were. Following that not much happened until we had mass migration here, that, like it or not, put a huge strain on benefits and working tax credits to such an extent that the government were forced to act to reduce both these things. Sanctions are a part of making it difficult to be on benefits and “incentivising” people to work. Of course they hit the people who need help the most even from a humanistic point of view. Some people are not good at following rules, some people don’t even understand the rules and sometimes the rules haven’t even been broken...by the claimant. Sanctions also help to create animosity or even hatred of the dwp who in this instance are just seen as yet another bunch of authority figures. The damage sanctions do in this respect will have ramifications in the future not just on the government and their agencies but also negatively affect society generally. It’s corporate abuse in my opinion.
  • WaylayWaylay Member Posts: 918 Pioneering
    @leeCal

    Wow, people are still spouting this nonsense? This idea that mass immigration is the problem is pushed by the government, the media, and political groups that don't like immigration, so that people will scapegoat immigrants and ignore the fact that the Tories are at fault for austerity, the drop in wages, the loss of public services, the waning NHS, etc. Don't go by what you read in the Mail or see on TV. 

    Refugees and Asylum Seekers get access to some benefits when they arrive, which I think is our moral duty. There aren't very many of them, though. Europeans can get JSA under *some circumstances*, but not for very long. 

    European Economic Area (EEA) and Swiss nationals

    If you are an EEA national, you need to show you have a ‘right to reside’ (can legally live here) and are ‘habitually resident’ (this is the place where you normally live) in the UK, the Channel Islands, the Isle of Man or the Republic of Ireland.

    *If you are not working, you will not generally be entitled to income-related benefits.*

    Jobseeker’s Allowance and Housing Benefit

    Before you can claim income-based Jobseeker’s Allowance you must have been living in the UK, Channel Islands, Isle of Man or Republic of Ireland for the three months immediately before making your claim.

    EEA nationals with ‘jobseeker’ residency status can claim income-based Jobseeker’s Allowance for up to six months. You will have a Genuine Prospect of Work assessment after three months.

    EEA nationals with ‘retained worker’ residency status can claim income-based Jobseeker’s Allowance for up to nine months. You will have a Genuine Prospect of Work assessment after six months.

    *EEA jobseekers cannot claim Housing Benefit.*

    Non-EEA nationals

    *If you are a third country national (a national of a non-EU country) with limited leave, including work permit holders, spouses and civil partners during the two year probationary period, you generally won’t be able to receive any benefits.*

    People with indefinite leave

    If you have indefinite leave to enter or stay in the UK you will generally have the same access to benefits as UK citizens.

    If you are sponsored

    If a UK sponsor has agreed to fund your stay in the UK, you won’t be entitled to claim income-related benefits for five years, from your date of entry into the UK or from the date the sponsorship was signed (whichever is later), unless your sponsor dies.

  • whistleswhistles Member Posts: 1,603 Disability Gamechanger
    Geoark said:
    andyjd said:
    Geoark said:
    andyjd said:
    Leave the disabled their carers alone and target the work shy.
    Hi @andyjd that is fine but it depends on your interpretation of work shy. For the tories this includes many of the disabled.
    My definition of work shy is those jobseekers who have no desire to get a job and refuse to job interviews. 
    Same as the government then. After all it was one of the justifications in reducing the benefits for those in the wrag group who were taking a lot longer to transition into work compared to JSA.
    And that's why they were placed into that group in the first place. Because it will take them longer and they need addition help.
    My understanding though is new claimants in the work related ESA get the same money as job seekers. So I don't really see the purpose of it? Must be because it's there- besides cutting more money before you get it.

    I don't know how many of us on this forum are living on less money since all these changes came in.
    I am and I know I won't be the only one. I still think the intention is to reduce from everyone, disability or not somehow during the process. 
    Do not follow me, I don't know where I am going.
  • GeoarkGeoark Community champion, Scope Volunteer Posts: 1,347 Disability Gamechanger
    @whistles I am not sure everyone has seen reductions, however for many disabled people the hits have been three ways.

    Cuts in non disability benefits, cuts aimed specifically at disability benefits, and the huge cuts in local council allowances and therefor cuts in services to disabled people, but also other cuts in services to the non disabled people as well.

    I don't have experience of WRAG but my understanding it is less rigorous in forcing job searching activities compared to JSA. Not sure how UC changes this.

    As an individual I stood alone.
    As a member of a group I did things.
    As part of a community I helped to create change!

  • whistleswhistles Member Posts: 1,603 Disability Gamechanger
    Cuts to the council I noticed because I can't now contribute because I don't have any funds to top up.

    As for UC apparently just been to court about the premuims. 
    It's like disaster is just following the dwp about!
    I wouldn't be rolling out more mess.

    Do not follow me, I don't know where I am going.
  • leeCalleeCal Member Posts: 3,014 Disability Gamechanger
    @Waylay
    ”Don't go by what you read in the Mail or see on TV. ” 
    really?! No we should go by what we see in our crystal ball of course. 
    Im not political and have no axe to grind with immigrants as I’m a second generation immigrant myself! Which is partly why I don’t feel the need to be deaf dumb and blind when it comes to the issue of mass immigration to this country. It isn’t very bright to confuse issues about immigration with racism, we are talking about quite a complex thing so it pays to concentrate and avoid becoming emotional about it. Too many foreigners in a country actually impact on the stability of the culture of that country, it’s ohvious. Secondly the vast majority of the immigrants that came here, and remember immigrant is a word nothing more, were and still are economic migrants seeking to exploit in whatever way they can this once generous and welcoming country. Wiising up to this after our support systems have been fatally damaged will be and probably is now too late. My children have been to universities around the country and they too are highly sensitive to the word immigrant! They also like to gag people by the simple knee jerk reaction of saying that the subject is off limits because it’s about racism. Though they’re my children they too have been tricked by the media, politicians and special minority interest groups into gagging people by calling them racists. As I said, it’s actually not bright to look at this way. My children also meet many foreign students at their universities but I point out that most of these are from middle class backgrounds and share middle class values with most people around the world. The majority of economic migrants are not middle class and have been used to a harsh way of life, they are prepared to do what it takes to get here and once here what it takes to thrive, regardless. Once they become significantly large as groups they will attempt to recreate a version of their own home countries society unless we stop treating them with kid gloves and try to integrate them properly.

    the Torres may have been in government and forced through various cuts but what would any party have done faced with spiralling demand and spiralling costs through benefits and tax credits. Tax credits being one way that thousands of employers managed to keep basic wages low and exploit the tax credit system to vicariously supplement profits. I don’t agree with cutting benefits in the way that they have at all, what the Torres have done is as usual taken a legitimate need to manage the public purse and used it as an opportunity to make big and lasting changes to reduce government expenditure. They’ve over cooked the books In other words, gone too far. Some of our current problems is down to their ineptitude, however I don’t think any other party would’ve done any better. Maybe it’s because the finest brains don’t go into politics, something else to fix in the future maybe.

    now where’s my crystal ball.
  • leeCalleeCal Member Posts: 3,014 Disability Gamechanger
    @waylay, furthermore I don’t read the Mail I read the daily news online from the heavily biased BBC and sky news, I also watch the news on the tv on either main channel and sometimes watch programs like question time and newsnight etc. What more can I do I wonder? Where is this source of pure Truth that you have that allows you to be so enlightened and know the ‘real’ story? 
    I expect that my sources of information are similar to yours and everybody else’s, sometimes however you must read between the lines so to speak.
    pax.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0 Listener
    MelWilkes said:

    At Scope, we want to tell Government how the system could be improved to better support disabled people who aren’t working. We wanted to started this thread for disabled people to share their views on sanctions.  

    What do you think should be done differently with benefit sanctions?

    If the Government stopped applying benefits sanctions, how would you feel about applying for benefits?

    Feedback and ideas shared on this thread will be used anonymously to shape Scope’s contribution to the work and pensions committee inquiry in to sanctions.

    Mel in Scope's Policy and Campaigns Team 


  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0 Listener
    I think the sanctions are a disgrace a few year ago I got sanctioned they said I 
    Was not doing enough but I did not know how to use a computer I appealed went to the tribunal the judge agreed with me they still robbed me of 2 weeks benefit 
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  • leeCalleeCal Member Posts: 3,014 Disability Gamechanger
    These people are just fine
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/6254170/sunday-times-rich-list-2018-jim-ratcliffe-richest-people-uk/

    But are are they really happy? “When there’s always biscuits in the tin, where’s the fun in biscuits?” ( from men behaving badly)
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  • leeCalleeCal Member Posts: 3,014 Disability Gamechanger
    @Victoriad Excellent research skills! Hence ‘awesome’ 
    had an early day today so I’m nodding off, hope I dream of the winning numbers for the next lottery. 😁
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,370 Disability Gamechanger
    Topkitten said:
    Firstly sanctions are necessary but they should only be applied for good reasons. Unfortunately our systems don't work very well and are sometimes applied because the people doing it haven't been trained properly. I have known many people on benefits over the last decade and only one was sanctioned. Despite her moans and groans they were for good reasons, she just didn't think they should apply to her. Mind you, none of even her close friends really believed she deserved the benefits she received nor was she really disabled.

    I have seen a few people complaining on TV and found those cases exactly the same. For example, one lady was complaining for her mother because her mum had been sanctioned for not finding work. Despite living in this country for 5 years the woman refused to learn or speak nothing but her native Romanian and this meant she could not find a job. Not surprising really but, simply because the case was on TV, the sanctions were removed shortly before the program aired. Such cases need to be sanctioned, it is not the purpose of this country to support such people.

    I did say though that there should be good and fair reasons. I think it is disgusting that people can be sanctioned based on a single anonymous telephone call. This happened to my daughter when she had 2 young children and her husband had been forced to move out because of aggravated assault on her. Her neighbours didn't like her and did like him so anonymously complained causing my daughter much distress until the investigation proved the call completely unfounded.

    TK
    On what basis are sanctions ”necessary” when there is literally no evidence they achieve anything other than destitution? The woman in question did not refuse to learn English at all. The English lessons made available to her simply didn’t teach her enough to make the difference between being able to work or not. The sanction was removed because it was accepted there was nothing different she could have done. I never ceased to be amazed by the nonsense people will believe at the drop of a hat.
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,370 Disability Gamechanger
    Victoriad said:
    A prime example of the stuff and nonsense people are spun. Does the phrase “fake austerity” mean nothing? Welfare bills are not “spiralling” at all. The exact opposite in fact. Does anyone fact check anything they read nowadays?
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  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,370 Disability Gamechanger
    leeCal said:
    @Waylay
    ”Don't go by what you read in the Mail or see on TV. ” 
    really?! No we should go by what we see in our crystal ball of course. 
    Im not political and have no axe to grind with immigrants as I’m a second generation immigrant myself! Which is partly why I don’t feel the need to be deaf dumb and blind when it comes to the issue of mass immigration to this country. It isn’t very bright to confuse issues about immigration with racism, we are talking about quite a complex thing so it pays to concentrate and avoid becoming emotional about it. Too many foreigners in a country actually impact on the stability of the culture of that country, it’s ohvious. Secondly the vast majority of the immigrants that came here, and remember immigrant is a word nothing more, were and still are economic migrants seeking to exploit in whatever way they can this once generous and welcoming country. Wiising up to this after our support systems have been fatally damaged will be and probably is now too late. My children have been to universities around the country and they too are highly sensitive to the word immigrant! They also like to gag people by the simple knee jerk reaction of saying that the subject is off limits because it’s about racism. Though they’re my children they too have been tricked by the media, politicians and special minority interest groups into gagging people by calling them racists. As I said, it’s actually not bright to look at this way. My children also meet many foreign students at their universities but I point out that most of these are from middle class backgrounds and share middle class values with most people around the world. The majority of economic migrants are not middle class and have been used to a harsh way of life, they are prepared to do what it takes to get here and once here what it takes to thrive, regardless. Once they become significantly large as groups they will attempt to recreate a version of their own home countries society unless we stop treating them with kid gloves and try to integrate them properly.

    the Torres may have been in government and forced through various cuts but what would any party have done faced with spiralling demand and spiralling costs through benefits and tax credits. Tax credits being one way that thousands of employers managed to keep basic wages low and exploit the tax credit system to vicariously supplement profits. I don’t agree with cutting benefits in the way that they have at all, what the Torres have done is as usual taken a legitimate need to manage the public purse and used it as an opportunity to make big and lasting changes to reduce government expenditure. They’ve over cooked the books In other words, gone too far. Some of our current problems is down to their ineptitude, however I don’t think any other party would’ve done any better. Maybe it’s because the finest brains don’t go into politics, something else to fix in the future maybe.

    now where’s my crystal ball.
    No emotion here but let’s cut to the facts.

    1) It’s obvious that too many immigrants impact the stability of a culture? Really? I’d be fascinated to know what a “stable” culture actually means. There’s no such thing. The only stable culture is a dead or dying one. All cultures are inherently unstable and ever changing. That’s how they stay relevant and alive. It’s equally obvious that culture is not homogenous. Working class culture is very different to upper class culture for example. So, the “obvious” is actually just a collection of meaningless aphorisms meant to sound impressive but conspicuously lacking in detail. Just the tactic used by racists in fact.

    It is of course a fact that no racist has ever posted on a forum ever.

    2) Economic migrants are here for economic reasons. There’s nothing exploitative about coming here for and then obtaining education or work. Our “support systems” have been fatally damaged to zero extent by economic migrants as they have work and even when they don’t they are generally denied access to health, social care and social security. It’s damn hard to damage something you can’t access in the first place! Neo-liberalism and the drive toward privatisation and profit are the destructive forces at work here. Funnily enough, to suggest otherwise when the facts on this are so easily demonstrably incorrect points once again towards, er, blatant racism.

    3) Actually the vast majority of economic migrants are middle class and again that’s easily demonstrable. Hey though, let’s not let facts get in the way of a good narrative! 

    4) What exactly is the evidence that people will recreate a version of their own country or that that in itself is a bad thing? It’s an assertion, I’ll give you that. Evidence for it? Nil. This is an argument which basically has UKIP, the BNP and Britain First writ large. It should be removed from a forum like this post haste. I’m astonished the original post has been allowed to stand.

    5) The cost of benefits and tax credits has not “spiralled” at all. Government has repeatedly inflated welfare figures by including pensions; social services and whatever they feel like to support arguments for cuts and the cost of tax credits has long been reducing. DWP accounts have been qualified by auditors for nearly decades now so literally nothing they say is to believed other than when it suits your argument. There’s also no evidence that Tax Credits suppress low wages. Nice try though. It almost sounded credible. 

    6) Finally I love the assertion that it’s not bright to confuse immigration with racism and that discussion on immigration is being suppressed. When you make a contribution to a discussion on migration that isn’t fundamentally racist then perhaps we can talk. Until then, I think not. The actual problem with discussions on migration in the UK is that it IS mostly driven by racism. 

    7) Other than an attempt to maybe suggest sanctions are a deterrent to migrants does anyone have a clue what the relevance of the post I’ve quoted was to this thread?
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  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,370 Disability Gamechanger
    @Victoriad I think you’re misunderstanding the term.

    It’s not a term suggesting that the impact of austerity is not real. What it’s referring to is that the need for those cuts in the first place is entirely fake. There is more than enough money to go around but it’s increasingly directed into the hands of the 1% and private companies. There are plenty of resources to go round but the neo-liberal agenda is to cut government and centralisation to the quick by privatising and profiteering. What then happens is that people buy into the no money idea and start blaming that on others who have too much. Take your pick - the sick, the disabled, the poor and, guess what, the migrants. Whilst those groups are busy picking on each other and playing a blame game guess where the money goes!
  • leeCalleeCal Member Posts: 3,014 Disability Gamechanger
    @mikehughescq
    well done! I’m convinced, we have no problems with immigrants, silly me.
    oh and I’m a racist after all, how shocking, so it’s actually me that’s not very bright. And fancy me being allowed to write this awful stuff on a forum in today’s Britain, maybe I should hand myself in to the nearest police station if I can find one that’s still open.
    Perhaps I should restrict my comments to say...gardening. Can’t be anything wrong with talking about that can there. So as far as the weeds in my garden are concerned some of them are simply gorgeous, after all weren’t they all wild flowers in the beginning which over many years were crossed with other wild flowers and hybridised etc, of course I don’t want them growing in my lawn and I actually I don’t want them growing with my roses and such either. What I’ll do is create a wild area where they can be all together and create a show, a natural area. Don’t think I want Japanese knotweed though, or even thistles, or nettles or dock weeds. Oh dear, it seems that I actually do have to control these weeds after all or my wild natural area will look an absolute mess! I know, rather than do anything much, because it’s too difficult, I’ll leave everything to grow together and let natural selection sort it out. Just hope the knotweed and thistles don’t take over but if they do, well, that’s nature.
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