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PIP - 3. Managing therapy or monitoring a health condition.

Trev121Trev121 Member Posts: 32 Listener
edited June 2018 in PIP, DLA and AA
PIP - 3. Managing therapy or monitoring a health condition. 

Hi,

I will be applying for PIP over the next few weeks.

I read somewhere a few weeks ago that because of some recent court ruling, some of the descriptor points for PIP question 3 were to be increased.
 The descriptor which would be applicable to me would be:

3. b. (11) Needs supervision, prompting or assistance to be able to manage medication. 1 point

Does anyone know if this will be increasing to 2 points soon, please?

regards

T

Replies

  • wilkowilko Member Posts: 2,352 Disability Gamechanger
    Hi Trev121, sorry for the delay I was out on Scooter when I saw your post and didn't have the up-to-date date information. Here goes 0 points for not needing help for meds ect. 1 point for supervision. 2 points if need of suppervisis upto 3.5hrs per week. 4 points for supervision from 3.5 to 7hrs per week. 6 points for 7 to 14 hrs supervision per week. And 8 points for more than 14 hrs per week. But this is still open to interpretation by the acessor and DWP.
  • wilkowilko Member Posts: 2,352 Disability Gamechanger
    Hi Trev121, if you can manage meds, 0 points. If you need some supervision 1 points. If you need supervision for upto 3.5hrs s week 2 points. If you need supervision from 3.5 to 7 hrs a week 4 points. If you need supervision from 7 to 14 hours per week 6 points. And more than 14 hrs per week 8 points. These can br miss interpretated by the acessor and the DWP
  • YadnadYadnad Posts: 2,856 Member
    Does therapy also mean taking medication.
  • Trev121Trev121 Member Posts: 32 Listener
    Thanks, Wilko for your reply - although with due respect, I'm still slightly confused.
    As, like Yadnad, I'm wondering about the difference, if any.
    Whilst I take inhalers/capsules for COPD, and fit the bill for the descriptor...
    "Needs supervision, prompting or assistance to  be able to manage medication... ", as I regularly forget whether I've taken each one, I do not have actual therapy -  and I suppose taking medication does not count/mean having actual therapy, does it?

    I cannot remember where I read it, but I thought I saw an article weeks ago which implied a new court ruling stated the above descriptor would receive 2 points instead of the one soon, which it currently receives - which would have made a big difference.

    regards
    T


  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 142 Listener
    I would’ve thought it included taking meds as I also need prompting, supervising, being told what to take and when due to short term memory loss and fatigue I forget what I’ve had and could potentially miss a dose or take too much? I also have to do 30mins evening & morning of physio therapy increased by double when I am ill 🤧 so that will count towards it to won’t it? 
  • debbiedo49debbiedo49 Member Posts: 2,906 Disability Gamechanger
    So how and who decides which cases will be reviewed. Also at my pip tribunal they did not count using an app on my phone as a tool to help me remember to take my medication. They would count a dosset box and asked me why I didn’t use one. In modern technology we have apps to help us to do so many things. Surely apps should be included as a tool for things like this? I don’t use a dosset box because my chemist is so busy with dosset boxes that they cannot take on more people just now and I find the idea restricting and unattractive for a younger independent modern person like myself. I see it as an older persons thing shoot me down if you must! I don’t trust other people with my personal stuff and people make mistakes and meds change. That’s way too much room for error for me. 
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  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 6,537 Disability Gamechanger
    There’s case law on the app side of things. My favourite subject as I want a test case. The argument on mobility is that a snartphone app is not a specialist orientation aid.  The problem is that said aids are often less specialist than anything on a phone so the law is misconceived.
  • YadnadYadnad Posts: 2,856 Member
    I Mike, am I right in saying that whilst those appeals were withdrawn the amendment to descriptors 3 dated 2017 still stands? I see that a JR may well be needed to clarify the position as to whether the 'amendment' was actually legal? In the meantime are the DWP still standing by the change in that taking medication is NOT the same as taking therapy?

  • Trev121Trev121 Member Posts: 32 Listener
    Many thanks for everybody's imput so far.

    But could I have a bit more advice, if anyone can offer it, please.

    As said, I have COPD, which is, incase anyone's not familiar, a progressive and chronic lung condition that causes constant breathing difficulties. When diagnosed with this condition, most patients are advised that there are 3 essential treatments neccessary to try to manage the condition in order to stop it deteriorating rapidly:

    1/ medication, ie, inhalers, capsules, etc, 2/ diet of fresh fruit/vegetables, 3/ regular exercise

    It's genuine that my doctor and other docs/specialists have told me from the start that I regularly need to get exercise to help the oxygen quality in my lungs, etc, which it's also called Pulmonary rehabilitation. So 30 minutes a day at home would/could be deemed necessary. 

    There are also articles stating this: Therapeutic exercise in patients with chronic obstructive pulmonary disease.

    The trouble is that I find it hard to motivate myself to do this, especially as it easily leaves me breathless, so do genuinely need prompting, if not supervision.

    So am I right in thinking that this would come under the descriptor?

    PIP 3c

    "Needs supervision, prompting or assistance to be able to manage therapy that takes no more than 3.5 hours a week" 2 points


    regards

    T
  • WaylayWaylay Member Posts: 949 Pioneering
    The points haven't changed, it's what gets you which points which has.
    For someone who has a chronic condition which requires medication/monitoring:

    Before the recent decision: ‘Therapy’ excluded treatment which consisted of the monitoring of a health condition and administration of medication. 

    After the recent decision: Monitoring a condition and/or taking meds now count as 'therapy'. 

    I BELIEVE this means the following: 

    Example A: You have a chronic health condition. You need to take medication 3 times a day, but you forget a lot, so someone has to prompt/supervise/assist you. 
    Both before and after the decision you get b: 1 point, because you just need someone to prompt/supervise/assist you to take your meds.

    Example B: You have a chronic health condition. You do physiotherapy for 30 minutes a day, and you need to take medication 3 times a day. Unfortunately you forget to do both of these a lot. To make sure that you do your physio and take your meds, someone has to prompt/supervise/assist you. 
    - Before the decision: You need prompting/supervision/assistance to do your physio for 3.5 hours a week, and you need prompting/supervision/assistance to take your meds 3 times a day. Because taking meds doesn't count as therapy, the total amount of time you need p/s/a for therapy is 3.5 hours. You get c: 2 points.
    - After the decision: you get: You need prompting/supervision/assistance to do your physio for 3.5 hours a week, and you need prompting/supervision/assistance to take your meds 3 times a day. Now taking your meds *does*t count as therapy. How long does it take someone to p/s/a you to take the meds? 5 minutes, 3 times a day, 7 days a week = 1.75 hours. So the total amount of time you need p/s/a for therapy is 3.5 hours + 1.75 hours = 5.25 hours. You get d: 4 points.

    (Remember: Prompting, supervision, and assistance are different things)

    -------------------------------------

    Descriptors for Question 3:
    a. (0 points)
    Either – 
    (i) does not receive medication or therapy or need to monitor a health condition; or 
    (ii) can manage medication or therapy or monitor a health condition unaided. 

    b. (1 point)
    Needs either – 
    (i) to use an aid or appliance to be able to manage medication; or 
    (ii) supervision, prompting or assistance to be able to manage medication or monitor a health condition. 

    c. (2 points)
    Needs supervision, prompting or assistance to be able to manage therapy that takes no more than 3.5 hours a week.

    d. (4 points)
    Needs supervision, prompting or assistance to be able to manage therapy that takes more than 3.5 but no more than 7 hours a week.

    e. (6 points)
    Needs supervision, prompting or assistance to be able to manage therapy that takes more than 7 but no more than 14 hours a week.

    f. (8 points)
    Needs supervision, prompting or assistance to be able to manage therapy that takes more than 14 hours a week. 
    --------------------------------------


  • WaylayWaylay Member Posts: 949 Pioneering
    @Trev121 "Therapy" means therapy to be undertaken at home which is prescribed or recommended by
    a—
    (a) registered –
    (i) doctor;
    (ii) nurse; or
    (iii) pharmacist; or
    (b) health professional regulated by the Health Professions Council; 

    So yeah, that sounds right. :) 

    Always pays to look up the words they use in benefits applications. They tend to define them very strictly.
  • Trev121Trev121 Member Posts: 32 Listener
    Thanks Waylay, what excellent advice - just what I need to know. Thanks everyone else, as well for your input.


  • YadnadYadnad Posts: 2,856 Member
    Waylay said:
    The points haven't changed, it's what gets you which points which has.
    For someone who has a chronic condition which requires medication/monitoring:

    Before the recent decision: ‘Therapy’ excluded treatment which consisted of the monitoring of a health condition and administration of medication. 

    After the recent decision: Monitoring a condition and/or taking meds now count as 'therapy'. 
    I'm still confused.

    Therapy is not the same as taking medication.


    supervision, prompting or assistance to be able to manage medication or monitor a health condition will get you 1 point.

    Therapy however will get you between 2 and 8 points depending on how many hours you have that therapy for in a week. - Needs supervision, prompting or assistance to be able to manage therapy

    Are you suggesting that therapy is the same as taking medication?

    If so you should also be counting the minutes each day for taking medication AND engaging in therapy.
    .
    As an example, I am a type 1 diabetic. I require supervision, prompting or assistance to maintain my blood sugar levels and the amount of insulin I should be taking. Insulin is a drug (medicine) and therefore is not therapy. I take copious amounts of different pain relief medication including morphine which is a restricted drug. I require supervision, prompting or assistance in taking that medication so as to avoid an overdose That is also medication and not therapy.

    All of that will give me 1 point - that is if the assessor/DWP accept that the supervision, prompting or assistance is a requirement and not a personal choice which is how the DWP saw my needs.

    Therapy to me is something that either you have third party intervention or you receive treatment other than by way of medication.
  • YadnadYadnad Posts: 2,856 Member
    Waylay said:
    @Trev121 "Therapy" means therapy to be undertaken at home which is prescribed or recommended by
    a—
    (a) registered –
    (i) doctor;
    (ii) nurse; or
    (iii) pharmacist; or
    (b) health professional regulated by the Health Professions Council; 

    So yeah, that sounds right. :) 

    Always pays to look up the words they use in benefits applications. They tend to define them very strictly.
    That doesn't actually define what therapy itself means.

  • YadnadYadnad Posts: 2,856 Member
    Trev121 said:
    Many thanks for everybody's imput so far.

    But could I have a bit more advice, if anyone can offer it, please.

    As said, I have COPD, which is, incase anyone's not familiar, a progressive and chronic lung condition that causes constant breathing difficulties. When diagnosed with this condition, most patients are advised that there are 3 essential treatments neccessary to try to manage the condition in order to stop it deteriorating rapidly:

    1/ medication, ie, inhalers, capsules, etc, 2/ diet of fresh fruit/vegetables, 3/ regular exercise

    It's genuine that my doctor and other docs/specialists have told me from the start that I regularly need to get exercise to help the oxygen quality in my lungs, etc, which it's also called Pulmonary rehabilitation. So 30 minutes a day at home would/could be deemed necessary. 

    I presume pulmonary fibrosis as well as being diagnosed with chronic asthma  is similar. I have this disease to the right lung in a severe way (according to the CT report)
    And yes the GP did say exercise and medication (various inhalers) is all that they can offer by way of treatment.
    Considering that I can't walk beyond 10 metres (as confirmed by the spinal unit) and have arthritis exercise is out of the question.

    The assessor/DWP in the reports suggested that I didn't have any difficulty walking up to 200 metres and that the lung disease is mild and therefore my assortations where exaggerated.
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  • whistleswhistles Member Posts: 1,590 Disability Gamechanger
    Regardless of whether medication is now included or not, you still have to satisfy the dwp that you need supervision and prompting. They decided I didn't need that or the dosset box because my memory was fine. 
    I beg to differ which is why the chemist do the lot, however- that wasn't considered as evidence of my poor memory.
    How do you prove that!

    Apps are not tools or aids. I think one of the reasons being is they get used by non disabled / ill people. They are not specifically aimed at helping us, just making able people lazy!!


    Do not follow me, I don't know where I am going.
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  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    edited June 2018
    I disagree. A dosset box is classed as an aid for managing therapy.
    Which would score you 1 point.
    Proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice I have given to members here on the community.
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  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    In all honesty, it's a rather pointless single point because it won't get you a higher award. It's the only single point in all of the descriptors. There's also no other descriptor that gives 3 points, so it is indeed pointless.
    Proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice I have given to members here on the community.
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  • whistleswhistles Member Posts: 1,590 Disability Gamechanger
    I agree with not overwhelming the pharmacy. The reason they deal with me, is because of the mess I got into doing it and the service was suggested to me. I didn't know about it before this.
    They also offer a postal service, but someone collects.
    My form said "ordering and collecting medication were outside the scope of pip" so if that's the case they are dismissing the aid that they say you can score one point with!! 
    Either way I need help with it, I receive help with it. That's more important to me than their screwed up system. 

    Do not follow me, I don't know where I am going.
  • YadnadYadnad Posts: 2,856 Member
    whistles said:
    Regardless of whether medication is now included or not, you still have to satisfy the dwp that you need supervision and prompting.
    Absolutely, you have to get through that hoop before you can go any further.
    Trying to convince the assessor/DWP that supervision, prompting and/or assistance is a need and not a choice is extremely difficult. As I have said, I fell foul of that too.

  • YadnadYadnad Posts: 2,856 Member
    edited June 2018
    I disagree. A dosset box is classed as an aid for managing therapy.
    Which would score you 1 point.
    Absolutely - 1 point, but not for therapy, medication.

    b. Needs either – 
    (i) to use an aid or appliance to be able to manage medication; or 
    (ii) supervision, prompting or assistance to be able to manage medication or monitor a health condition.
  • whistleswhistles Member Posts: 1,590 Disability Gamechanger
    Victoriad said:


    It would be interesting to know if other posters have received one point for using a dosset box as an aid.


    Only if they decide you need one.:-) 
    Do not follow me, I don't know where I am going.
  • YadnadYadnad Posts: 2,856 Member
    edited June 2018
    Victoriad said:
    It’s beginning to feel like I have taking part in the Eurovision Song Contest, with the NUL points ;)
    It seems that way! The assessor/DWP work backwards from no points towards 8. The first descriptor with the lowest points that applies you get the applicable points 
  • whistleswhistles Member Posts: 1,590 Disability Gamechanger
    edited June 2018
    I found this article.

    https://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/news/3775-dwp-admits-to-getting-pip-law-wrong-again-many-thousands-of-claimants-will-get-back-payments .


    "Managing therapy or monitoring a health condition
    The changes to the ‘Managing therapy or monitoring a health condition’ activity in March 2017 were intended to prevent claimants who needed help in the form of supervision, prompting or assistance with taking medication or monitoring a health condition from scoring more than one point. The changes stated that help with taking medication, or with monitoring a health condition, did not count as help with therapy for which up to 8 points can be scored"

    The dwp say - none of this applies from the date when they changed the law. So for cases from 16 March 2017 the DWP claims its decisions are correct"

    But even if you can now score more than one. I got zero because they decided I didn't need supervision, prompting, assistance with any of the descriptors. 
    But I wonder if reliably and safely should have come into it here?  


    Do not follow me, I don't know where I am going.
  • susan48susan48 Member Posts: 2,229 Disability Gamechanger
    edited June 2018
    I use a dosset box but have supervision to fill the said box weekly as my local pharmacist is so busy. 
    I did get points for supervision and prompting.
    No matter what we think the decision makers etc will decide and we just need to like it or lump it
  • YadnadYadnad Posts: 2,856 Member
    whistles said:
    I found this article.

    https://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/news/3775-dwp-admits-to-getting-pip-law-wrong-again-many-thousands-of-claimants-will-get-back-payments .


    "Managing therapy or monitoring a health condition
    The changes to the ‘Managing therapy or monitoring a health condition’ activity in March 2017 were intended to prevent claimants who needed help in the form of supervision, prompting or assistance with taking medication or monitoring a health condition from scoring more than one point. The changes stated that help with taking medication, or with monitoring a health condition, did not count as help with therapy for which up to 8 points can be scored"

    The dwp say - none of this applies from the date when they changed the law. So for cases from 16 March 2017 the DWP claims its decisions are correct"

    But even if you can now score more than one. I got zero because they decided I didn't need supervision, prompting, assistance with any of the descriptors. 
    But I wonder if reliably and safely should have come into it here?  


    Notwithstanding the withdrawal of the appeals by the DWP, the descriptors as amended in 2017 are still legal (as far as the DWP are concerned).
    It will now take a Judicial Review to test if these changes are in fact legal. At the moment nothing seems to be happening with this second case. As it is now we are stuck with the amended descriptors.
    You can never get more than 1 point for the medication descriptor.

    However if you have to have some type of therapy you can get up to 8 points.

    Taking medication and under going therapy is not the same thing.

  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 6,537 Disability Gamechanger
    whistles said:
    Victoriad said:


    It would be interesting to know if other posters have received one point for using a dosset box as an aid.


    Only if they decide you need one.:-) 
    This is a serious point. It’s not just that you use an aid or appliance. It’s that it improves, replaces or provides a function. This there’s a need to clearly distinguish between using a dosette cos it makes sense and is convenient from it doing one of the foregoing.
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