PIP, DLA and AA
If this is your first visit, check out the community guide. You will have to Join us or Sign in before you can post.

Can I appeal only the daily living side of PIP?

davies89davies89 Member Posts: 2 Listener
edited August 2018 in PIP, DLA and AA
Hi, my partner has recently had a face to face for PIP. He has COPD and is on a lot of medication for it. He is also on medication for anxiety/depression. He was awarded enhanced mobility but was not awarded daily living side of it. I have already been through the mandatory appeal but has still been refused for it. He is unable to dress or undress himself, cook his own food and has to be prompted to eat and I have to physically give him his medication or he will not take it. Can I appeal only the daily living side without the mobility side being looked at again? I had to give up work due to my partners health and also have 2 children look after. Any help and advice will be much appreciated. Thanks.

Replies

  • MatildaMatilda Member Posts: 2,616 Disability Gamechanger
    The tribunal will look at both components.
  • Pippa_AlumniPippa_Alumni Scope alumni Posts: 5,851 Disability Gamechanger
    Hi @davies89, and a warm welcome to the community!

    Thanks for sharing this with us- sorry to hear your MR wasn't successful. As @Matilda says, the tribunal would look at both components, not just one. If you do decide to appeal, you may like to check out Scope's guidance on appealing DWP decisions to help you prepare. Hope this helps, and do keep us updated!


  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,936 Disability Gamechanger
    Very important to get face to face advice on this scenario as it’s the only way to accurately weigh up what risk, if any, there is to your existing component. You can in fact make it clear that you want to focus on the one component but nothing binds a tribunal to do that. Some, having previewed the papers, will declare at the outset that they are happy with the component already awarded.
  • davies89davies89 Member Posts: 2 Listener
    @Pippa_Scope thank you for getting back to me. It's really frustrating as he was awarded it before for 3 years and I was able to get carers. It's just annoying as his condition as worsened throughout the years and needs care now more than ever. He got points for me having to cook, bathe him and help him socialise with other people. It's a bit of a contradiction as I have to undress him to get into the bath and dress him when he is out. Without me being there to dress him he would not be able to attend doctors appointments or bath ect. 
  • TopkittenTopkitten Member Posts: 1,263 Pioneering
    The award is classed as a "decision" and you can appeal the decision as a whole but not part of it. You have to chance losing what you have in order to get what you think is fair.

    Get advice from the CAB and anyone else in your area that you can think of. You will definitely need advice on how to apply for the appeal and on what basis you think it should be challenged.

    Whilst we all imagine we are worse than others, they have other cases to compare them too when people have well known problems, despite the fact that everyone responds differently. I presume they are not supposed to do this but it almost certainly will happen 

    I imagine your caring for him is part of the problem or at least their excuse for it. Family caring is given far less weight than having actual carers come in to do it.

    You have some difficult decisions to make but I hope things go well for you.

    TK
    "I'm on the wrong side of heaven and the righteous side of hell" - from Wrong side of heaven by Five Finger Death Punch.
  • MatildaMatilda Member Posts: 2,616 Disability Gamechanger
    @davies89

    Many assessors' reports and consequently DWP decisions are of poor quality, factually inaccurate, which is why 71% of appeals succeed.  As long as you think the current award is safe from reduction, it's worth appealing.  My appeal increased my award from standard to enhanced both components.

    You have been given advice above.  Also, Disability Rights UK site (DRUK) has  a good guide to PIP appeals.  And they publish a Handbook that gives a detailed outline of PIP appeal hearings procedure.  £18.50 from DRUK site or probably available in your local reference library.

    The first stage of appeal is to ask for a mandatory reconsideration (MR).

    advice now.org.uk/pip-tool will generate an MR submission letter.
  • Debbie1234Debbie1234 Member Posts: 82 Courageous
    Hi 👋 
    I am just wondering how you got on with your appeal? I am in a similar position. I got awarded standard rate (11points) & mobility (4points) I totally disagree with the mobility part. My doctor has stated I get severe panic attacks and I can't go out unaccompanied, yet they only gave me 4 points. Which comes under, I need encouraging to go out. Please help me if you can
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    Hi 👋 
    I am just wondering how you got on with your appeal? I am in a similar position. I got awarded standard rate (11points) & mobility (4points) I totally disagree with the mobility part. My doctor has stated I get severe panic attacks and I can't go out unaccompanied, yet they only gave me 4 points. Which comes under, I need encouraging to go out. Please help me if you can

    Hi,

    This thread is 2 years old and the original poster hasn't returned in all that time, so they may not answer you. Although i can see from their post that they did receive Enhanced mobility, which is different to your claim.

    My opinion is needing prompting to go out for your reason then 4 points is the correct award.
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • Debbie1234Debbie1234 Member Posts: 82 Courageous
    Thank you for the reply 😁
    I personally think I should of come under "can not undertake a familiar journey without being unaccompanied" 12 points 
    to give you an example, in 4 months I have managed to leave the house twice with my husband. My doctor allowed my daughter to come to the surgery with me under the covid 19 restrictions because I am so agoraphobic and won't go out alone.

  • Debbie1234Debbie1234 Member Posts: 82 Courageous
    Accompanied * sorry that's what I meant
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    edited August 2020
    Then your GP just stating that you have severe panic attacks isn't enough. A GP will very rarely know how our conditions affect us because they spend very little time with us. They will only know something, if you tell them and this isn't evidence. You need to state why you can't go out alone, what happened the last time you attempted to go out alone, who seen it and where you were you when it happened. Anecdotal evidence is always the best.
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • Debbie1234Debbie1234 Member Posts: 82 Courageous
    Thank you so much. In my MR letter the DM states that my gp admits I can't go out alone and the reasons etc..,, also that I have accute/severe panic attacks 3-4 times a week. She has put me on a list for therapy and put me on medication. I really don't know what to do. I have been on esa support group for 12 years and never had to go for a work assessment. Filling pip forms every 2 years is making me really suicidal again. I suffer complex post traumatic stress and having to keep looking on my very bad days is really distressing and disturbing. 

  • Debbie1234Debbie1234 Member Posts: 82 Courageous
    My daughter also sent a letter to confirm how I had a major panic attack with her etc.... a very detailed letter.
    i had 2 points for daily and 0 for mobility before I sent off for my MR. I just don't know wether to appeal also for a longer period 
  • Debbie1234Debbie1234 Member Posts: 82 Courageous
    Thank you for all your advice though, it is much appreciated 
  • TopkittenTopkitten Member Posts: 1,263 Pioneering
    This has probably been covered already but I went through this so I'll comment.

    My third attempt to get DLA granted the lowest rate of Care and no Mobility. I appealed and not only did I not get Mobility they also took away the Care. I had to appeal to the Higher Court and won. I got a new appeal from which I got Medium rate Care and high Mobility. It was worth the effort but took 18 months from start to finish. This would have also applied to any PIP appeal.

    The morale is that if you appeal you risk losing whatever you have got.

    TK
    "I'm on the wrong side of heaven and the righteous side of hell" - from Wrong side of heaven by Five Finger Death Punch.
  • Debbie1234Debbie1234 Member Posts: 82 Courageous
    Hi Topkitten
    thanks for valued advice. I think I am going to leave my award as it is. It renews in 3 years and next time I will be better prepared on how to fill out the forms and collect evidence etc....
    I think the whole process is discriminating and degrading. It is so sad 😞 I felt like a criminal on trial when I was having my phone assessment. I have worked hard all my life. The thing with the British nature is to downplay problems with our stiff upper lip. Saying we are fine when we are dying inside and out. Many people know this, so surely when we do turn to our system/government for help they should acknowledge how incredibly difficult it is. 

  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,936 Disability Gamechanger
    Topkitten said:

    The morale is that if you appeal you risk losing whatever you have got.

    TK
    This then is what professional advice and representation is for. 

    Is there a risk? Always. 

    How big is that risk? It will vary. 

    In a few cases it is very real but that’s usually only where perhaps the evidence didn’t necessarily support an award in the first place. In many cases that risk is negligible. If an adviser can assess that risk - not possible online - then a balanced judgement can be made. 
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    @mikehughescq i thought they warn you if there was any risk of losing an existing award, which means there's not really any risk? Or did i just dream that? -scratches head- confused.
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,936 Disability Gamechanger
    Yes there is always the on the day warning too but ideally you want an assessment of risk at an earlier stage. 

    I repeatedly come across people put off appealing because they’ve been told there’s a risk. By itself that is irresponsible and misleading. There is always a risk. The real question is how big is it. 

    Top of my head and this year alone I can think of someone put off pursuing a supersession because DWP and friends said there was a risk. All the DL points awarded at that point were for aids still in use. There’s no way you’re going to lose those other than through gross incompetence so the risk there would literally be nil. So it proved. 

    I can think of someone told 3 times over a long period that a challenge carried the risk of losing what they had so the claimant didn’t pursue it. The points they eventually scored were the highest I have ever achieved by some distance. The risk was again effectively nil but the poor advice x3 has literally cost them thousands of pounds in lost benefit. 

    I fully appreciate that advice from the likes of @Topkitten and indeed others comes from a good place but the fact there is a risk is both indisputable but also irrelevant. The only question about risk is... how real is the risk? Often it is not real at all. 
  • TopkittenTopkitten Member Posts: 1,263 Pioneering
    @mikehughescq, judges on appeal boards do not always follow strict rules of even common sense. Why did I lose my award and have to go further? Her words at the tribunal were "I am not here to award you a free car". Not in any sense of the word is a Motability car "free" and it takes time and effort to get the right one with correct adaptions etc. However, in her "Statement of Reasons" there were all sorts of silly and stupid mistakes, some of which were not even from my case. Her real reason was pure bigotry and nonsense. Whilst these judges are supposed to be sensible and impartial, human beings are simply not made that way, so never assume that common sense will prevail, sometimes you just get an idiot to judge your appeal and even one member of the tribunal team can spoil any carefully prepared case.

    Life isn't fair so don't expect it to be.

    TK
    "I'm on the wrong side of heaven and the righteous side of hell" - from Wrong side of heaven by Five Finger Death Punch.
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,936 Disability Gamechanger
    We’re talking about risk @Topkitten not fairness. You shouldn’t confuse the circumstances of your own case with our discussion of risk. Tribunals are human and all make errors of law. That shouldn’t feature as part of the assessment of risk other than as a passing observation else no-one would ever proceed to appeal. 

    In your own case, if an existing award was removed you will or ought to have been given a warning. You will presumably have elected to continue and to have assumed that risk. That is your decision. There are some red flags in your post which suggest your case may not have been optimally presented.

    PIP decisions are mostly made by panels not judges. Whatever else happened in your case it was not the fault of an individual judge. A panel of three came to that conclusion. As regards comments on Motability cars my experience is that I have never known a judge voluntarily bring the subject up... ever. It can only have been provoked about the need for a vehicle. Presenting this as part of an argument for PIP, as with DLA, has been a losing strategy since the benefits were invented. 

    It is of course correct that even the best cases can go wrong but that is not an argument to be weighed as part of the assessment of risk to an award. Would you take the same approach if you’d been accused of murder? “I’d best not plead innocent because they might wrongly find me guilty”!
  • TopkittenTopkitten Member Posts: 1,263 Pioneering
    edited August 2020
    @mikehughescq, tribunals are made up of 3 people (which you should know) however, the judge generally chooses their own members and, human nature being what it is, they tend to pick people who share their views or who make their life easier.

    I was aware of the risk (I never said I wasn't) but the reward was so inconsequential it was a risk I accepted. Then the judge who was supposed to provide the SoR withing 10 weeks (at that time) took 6 months to provide it. This SoR was sent to the Higher Court where the "Clerk to the Higher Court" (not the court itself) overturned her decision (because it was obviously a fabrication) and awarded me another appeal date. Judges should not be made aware that such a process was invoked (in case it reflects in their own decision) but, by the new judges comments, she was obviously well aware that I had appealed the appeal. My biggest problem with all this was the fact that a process which should have been done in half the time took 18 months to finally get a decision and that was back when things went a lot faster than they do now. Such a delay, for most people, would make life extremely difficult even though it simply came down to a personal bias.

    Decisions should be, in an ideal world, made by the panel but this particular judge was well known in the area by other professionals as making the decisions herself and the panel would go along. We do not live in anything even closely resembling an ideal world.

    I didn't, at any point, bring up anything about a car but I was upset and stated loud enough to be heard by the panel that I was being made housebound unnecessarily. The judges interpretation was entirely her own idea.

    The final part of your post is preposterous. How can you assess ANY risk without considering a poorly thought out presentation as the capabilities of whomever helps a disabled person will vary greatly. That's one of the most ludicrous statements I have ever heard! As for the "murder" comment, try sticking to the point and not wandering off wherever you feel like.

    This particular judge was well known for her opinion by all the people who helped with claims and appeals. A lady from the CAB stated that, according to this judge, you were only disabled if you stopped breathing.

    Another relevant point is that when appeals are allocated the same judge is not allowed to pick their cases and should never appear in an appeal for someone they had presided over before. However, for all 3 of my appeals I was allocated the same panel.

    [Removed by moderator - please keep the community guidelines in mind]

    I have nothing more to say on this subject except to repeat that a person should take into account ALL factors and not those who think we live in an ideal world where law is law and no one involved in it makes mistakes, they do ALL the time but (like doctors) protect each other from trouble.

    TK
    "I'm on the wrong side of heaven and the righteous side of hell" - from Wrong side of heaven by Five Finger Death Punch.
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,936 Disability Gamechanger
    edited August 2020
    Interesting post @topkitten. Pardon my saying so but very much out of character for your good self. Unfortunately it contains multiple inaccuracies. 

    1 - tribunal judges have no say whatsoever in the 2 members they sit with. The allocation is done entirely by HMCTS clerks and all members will only learn of who their panel is on any given day during the week they’re sitting or through conversations in passing when they discover they’re at the same venue at the same time. This has been the case since tribunals were introduced. 

    2 - clerks to the UT do not and never have made UT decisions. They simply sign the letter which accompanied the decision. Again, always been the case.

    3 - judges are legally obliged to be informed of the outcomes of UT decisions as the UT may well offer directions for the new FTT and there’s also the small matter if judges being supervised and part of that looking at how many of their decisions are overturned. 

    4 - your 5th and 8th paragraphs contain personal comment so I won’t comment further. I will say that the thing you refer to as “ludicrous” is actually how all advice works so it’s not necessarily me who is out on a limb there.

    5 - I can assure you that any adviser who tells you they know who holds what view in a tribunal room and how that fed into a decision made behind closed doors is basically judging and speculating. They weren’t there and they are guessing. I have come across judges who make dreadful comments but have discovered through other means that they were pro claimant. What we as advisers know of tribunals views and what we think we know are worlds apart. 

    6 - it is not true to say that a judge cannot preside over the same case twice. There are circumstances where they can and circumstances where they can’t. 

    What this says to me, as per your earlier comments is that the PIP process is one you’ve not really got to grips with and you need better advice on what tribunals can and can’t do. That would considerably aid how you handle these matters in future. 
  • Debbie1234Debbie1234 Member Posts: 82 Courageous
    Good morning MikeHughes and Topkitten 😊
    sorry for the late reply, I had a restless sleep last night and I have just got up. (Loads of nightmares to do with being at court over the pip)
    I really do appreciate both your comments as I can try and consider what to do now. I don't feel so alone with this website and I can get other people's views. If I do get a chance to keep my daily standard living if things don't go my way, I really do want to fight their decision. Especially as I have backing from my doctors etc.... even if they award me lower rate mobility it will at least help towards the upkeep of my car. Because on my better days I can go out my back door with my daughter and get into my car and have a little drive. I hate it when they has for good days lol.... because since 2008 and being severely sexually attacked and run over I have never had a good day if that makes sense. I have very bad days and bad to moderate days. I find the people I have spoken to from dwp very patronising and not empathic. (Apart from one elderly lady) 
    I am going to try and go for it 🙏 
    I will let you know how I get on. 
    I am due back pay from June 4th soon, do I phone up to cancel that and tell them I am appealing? 
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    @Debbie1234 your existing award will continue to be paid while you're waiting for the MR decision and this includes any backdated money you receive.
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,936 Disability Gamechanger
    Can we please clarify. Tribunals are not courts. The venue may be a court but the tribunal itself is not a court and does not operate to the rules of a court.
  • Debbie1234Debbie1234 Member Posts: 82 Courageous
    Hi Poppy 
    They took all my PIP away from me originally June 4th. I asked for a MR. I have just won the MR. Standard daily rate 😊 but I want to fight that decision if that makes sense. To appeal. 
    Thank you for replying back to me. 
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    Hi Poppy 
    They took all my PIP away from me originally June 4th. I asked for a MR. I have just won the MR. Standard daily rate 😊 but I want to fight that decision if that makes sense. To appeal. 
    Thank you for replying back to me. 

    You will still receive the backdated money owed and payments will continue while wait for the Tribunal hearing.
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • Debbie1234Debbie1234 Member Posts: 82 Courageous
    Thanks Poppy 😀 I will plod on ahead with my appeal and let you all know how I get on 👍
    thanks too Mike I had visions of the tribunal being wigs and hammers etc.... 😂
  • Adrian_ScopeAdrian_Scope Testing team Posts: 7,924

    Scope community team

    I think that's a very common perception of them @Debbie1234
    Glad to hear your MR was partially successful and awarded you daily living. 

    Best of luck with the tribunal for mobility. Please let us know if you have any questions about the process etc. :)

    I hope you don't mind but I'm going to close this thread as it has sadly (through no fault of your own) gone off topic and we've had to moderate a few comments within it. Please don't hesitate to make a new thread if you need any more help and to let us know how you get on! :smile:
    Senior Community Partner
    Scope

    Your feedback is really important to the development of the online community, so please remember to complete our online community annual survey
  • Debbie1234Debbie1234 Member Posts: 82 Courageous
    I have now logged my appeal 😊
    thank you Adrian 👍 my heart feels like it may stop at any moment. I will let you all know how I get on
This discussion has been closed.