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lies or mistakes thru lack of training or could not care as long as they get paid on result

[Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0 Listener
edited August 2018 in PIP, DLA and AA
now we have assessments for benifits and are told to supply medical evidence?which we do? we then have a hcp check us over by asking us a few questions and do a medical although it is claimed not medical such as touch your toes put arms above head bend your nexck left to right  pic up a bit of paper  not a medical mind  exsplain how you are day to day  then it is over ?? you did exsplain how you are day to day as you know how you are ?now you sit and wait  in time you get your report if you asked for it but find no mention of evidence and misleading information such as you can walk with ease 500yards can mix with people can cook can count cash or use a phone??the report is fiction it is not what you or evidence stated  do you say the assessment was a lie or a mistake  BUT the decision maker goes on the hcp report and seldom ignors it so you are refused WHY because the hcp lied or ignored facts they can see it is not rocket science is it ??now you must prove the report was wrong  who cares hcp no decision maker no ??so you are aNGRY AND STATE ASSESSER LIED NO SHE WAS MISTAKEN AS NOT accountable to anyone not even the company who employs them unless mass complaints  WHAT CAN YOU DO???????????????

Replies

  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    Regardless of whether you say the assessment was a "lie" or a mistake as you say, the DWP and the Tribunal will not be interested in any untruths told during any assessment. All they will be interested in is how your conditions affect you and you proving that they do. People get angry yes but getting angry when writing the MR letter or getting angry at a Tribunal will NOT help your claim.
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • wilkowilko Member Posts: 2,200 Disability Gamechanger
    Sending in all the medical evidence sounds good but the PIP acessment is not to comfirm your diagnosis,but to establish how your illness condition affects your day to day living activities and your ability to remain mobile. The acessor has to be sure you can or can't preform the descriptors set out in the PIP acessment and award points according to your abilities demostrated at your acessment.
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,394 Disability Gamechanger
    edited August 2018
    There are a number of incorrect statements/assumptions in the original post. 

    Claimants are not told to supply medical evidence at all. Claimants are asked to supply supporting evidence. It can be whatever you want it to be. It does not have to be medical at all and it’s often better if it’s not given that diagnosis, prognosis and symptoms are rarely in dispute. 

    The face to face is not a medical because the person doing it is not medically qualified and it is only functional testing and observation. A medical usually involves taking clinical readings and is done by a medically qualified person. Also not all face to face consultations involve functional testing.

    A decision maker cannot ignore evidence. They have to weigh all evidence. There is undoubtedly a cultural issue within DWP as preference is clearly given to the contents of HCP reports even when the contents are patently ludicrous bit it’s worth noting that it’s a system that does work fine for the majority of claimants. The numbers for whom it doesn’t work are significant and far too high but it does work for the majority. 

    I agree with the OP that the instinct to conclude that a HCP has lied is understandable but the other side of that coin is that PIP is not that hard to understand and yet most people claiming it, especially DLA conversions, don’t take the time to get to grips with the basics, and thus present their case badly in the first place. 

    I wrote the following on a thread yesterday and I stand by it.

    HCPs basically have their own professional qualification and then 5 to 7 days training as a HCP which is largely generic disability awareness and learning enough about the HCP process. After that it’s all speculation as to what happens but I suspect we know enough to be able to say that some strive to do an excellent job and some are influenced by others to find shortcuts to survival. Few do the job full time as they are in quasi-medical professions where full time work is hard to come by. Many are therefore either very young and lacking life experience or struggling to get by just as much as claimants. Unless the younger ones have ill family or friends their actual life experience may not have involved impairment at all. It amuses me and makes me sad that the very empathy claimants with disabilities would want for themselves is something they rarely extend to HCPs. It is of course entirely understandable that that’s the case but it doesn’t make it right. Walking a mile in anyone else’s shoes is always an eye opener. HCPs have a difficult job made harder by poor training which inevitably means poor practice and subjectivity come into play.

    Forum posters love to think they’re in the majority but that’s most unlikely as we know that forums are generally full of negative stuff whether it’s like here, football, money or whatever. No-one will find a forum full of positivity on any subject. If you want that you need a blog. That’s why I despair a little when people call HCPs “liars” without a thought for the other side of the story. Careless, pressured, badly expressed and factually incorrect yes of course but out and out provable lies are rare and in any case impossible to prove without a transcription. I have also observed many times that proving someone else wrong does not make you right and doesn’t make a case for qualifying for benefit. 

    The single strongest things you can do to sway a decision maker is to have strong anecdotal evidence of the consequences of your attempts to perform the activities in question and have absolute consistency between your claim pack and what you say at a HCP assessment. It’s interesting how many people think their claim pack was perfect when there are often huge gaps and obvious inconsistencies. There are many things which contribute to negative outcomes and the HCP is often a far smaller part of that than claimants think. They just happen to be the most visible.

    In terms of accountability then yes one of the flaws of the process is that the accountability of private companies is inevitably poor but a well done complaint can be very effective and reverse a HCP recommendation to a DM. However, in order to do that the complainant has to focus on arguments they can win. As above, there’s no argument to win on lies unless you have a transcription. There are arguments to win if you know whether they breached their own guidance and when there is clear factual evidence which shows they must be wrong. For example a wholly blind claimant for whom a HCP gave a Snellen reading was one I came across recently. 

    The short answer is that you do an MR if needed and lodge a complaint if it can be evidenced but you stick to demonstrable facts not emotive unprovable assertions.

  • YadnadYadnad Member - under moderation Posts: 2,862 Disability Gamechanger
    sweet said:
    now we have assessments for benifits and are told to supply medical evidence?which we do? we then have a hcp check us over by asking us a few questions and do a medical although it is claimed not medical such as touch your toes put arms above head bend your nexck left to right  pic up a bit of paper  not a medical mind  exsplain how you are day to day  then it is over ?? you did exsplain how you are day to day as you know how you are ?now you sit and wait  in time you get your report if you asked for it but find no mention of evidence and misleading information such as you can walk with ease 500yards can mix with people can cook can count cash or use a phone??the report is fiction it is not what you or evidence stated  do you say the assessment was a lie or a mistake  BUT the decision maker goes on the hcp report and seldom ignors it so you are refused WHY because the hcp lied or ignored facts they can see it is not rocket science is it ??now you must prove the report was wrong  who cares hcp no decision maker no ??so you are aNGRY AND STATE ASSESSER LIED NO SHE WAS MISTAKEN AS NOT accountable to anyone not even the company who employs them unless mass complaints  WHAT CAN YOU DO???????????????
    And don't forget that in the space of a few minutes they can assess your mental health. Shame that the NHS can't work to that speed, it would increase through put of patients thus increasing the number of patients that can be seen in one 12 hour shift.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0 Listener
    edited August 2018
    Yadnad said:
    sweet said:
    now we have assessments for benifits and are told to supply medical evidence?which we do? we then have a hcp check us over by asking us a few questions and do a medical although it is claimed not medical such as touch your toes put arms above head bend your nexck left to right  pic up a bit of paper  not a medical mind  exsplain how you are day to day  then it is over ?? you did exsplain how you are day to day as you know how you are ?now you sit and wait  in time you get your report if you asked for it but find no mention of evidence and misleading information such as you can walk with ease 500yards can mix with people can cook can count cash or use a phone??the report is fiction it is not what you or evidence stated  do you say the assessment was a lie or a mistake  BUT the decision maker goes on the hcp report and seldom ignors it so you are refused WHY because the hcp lied or ignored facts they can see it is not rocket science is it ??now you must prove the report was wrong  who cares hcp no decision maker no ??so you are aNGRY AND STATE ASSESSER LIED NO SHE WAS MISTAKEN AS NOT accountable to anyone not even the company who employs them unless mass complaints  WHAT CAN YOU DO???????????????
    And don't forget that in the space of a few minutes they can assess your mental health. Shame that the NHS can't work to that speed, it would increase through put of patients thus increasing the number of patients that can be seen in one 12 hour shift.
    we know that that is impossible and hcp are not able to decide if you have mental problems unless you demonstrate it on the day of medical i wont say assessment as i think it is medical  but it is fantastic they can cure you of an illness you may have or never recover from medical in you are asked to perform tasks and some do eyesight test breathing test since stopped i hear due to health safty issue breath that is plus balance test although they cannot note if you can climb stairs
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    The assessment is not a medical, it's an assessment and nothing more.
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0 Listener
    There are a number of incorrect statements/assumptions in the original post. 

    Claimants are not told to supply medical evidence at all. Claimants are asked to supply supporting evidence. It can be whatever you want it to be. It does not have to be medical at all and it’s often better if it’s not given that diagnosis, prognosis and symptoms are rarely in dispute. 

    The face to face is not a medical because the person doing it is not medically qualified and it is only functional testing and observation. A medical usually involves taking clinical readings and is done by a medically qualified person. Also not all face to face consultations involve functional testing.

    A decision maker cannot ignore evidence. They have to weigh all evidence. There is undoubtedly a cultural issue within DWP as preference is clearly given to the contents of HCP reports even when the contents are patently ludicrous bit it’s worth noting that it’s a system that does work fine for the majority of claimants. The numbers for whom it doesn’t work are significant and far too high but it does work for the majority. 

    I agree with the OP that the instinct to conclude that a HCP has lied is understandable but the other side of that coin is that PIP is not that hard to understand and yet most people claiming it, especially DLA conversions, don’t take the time to get to grips with the basics, and thus present their case badly in the first place. 

    I wrote the following on a thread yesterday and I stand by it.

    HCPs basically have their own professional qualification and then 5 to 7 days training as a HCP which is largely generic disability awareness and learning enough about the HCP process. After that it’s all speculation as to what happens but I suspect we know enough to be able to say that some strive to do an excellent job and some are influenced by others to find shortcuts to survival. Few do the job full time as they are in quasi-medical professions where full time work is hard to come by. Many are therefore either very young and lacking life experience or struggling to get by just as much as claimants. Unless the younger ones have ill family or friends their actual life experience may not have involved impairment at all. It amuses me and makes me sad that the very empathy claimants with disabilities would want for themselves is something they rarely extend to HCPs. It is of course entirely understandable that that’s the case but it doesn’t make it right. Walking a mile in anyone else’s shoes is always an eye opener. HCPs have a difficult job made harder by poor training which inevitably means poor practice and subjectivity come into play.

    Forum posters love to think they’re in the majority but that’s most unlikely as we know that forums are generally full of negative stuff whether it’s like here, football, money or whatever. No-one will find a forum full of positivity on any subject. If you want that you need a blog. That’s why I despair a little when people call HCPs “liars” without a thought for the other side of the story. Careless, pressured, badly expressed and factually incorrect yes of course but out and out provable lies are rare and in any case impossible to prove without a transcription. I have also observed many times that proving someone else wrong does not make you right and doesn’t make a case for qualifying for benefit. 

    The single strongest things you can do to sway a decision maker is to have strong anecdotal evidence of the consequences of your attempts to perform the activities in question and have absolute consistency between your claim pack and what you say at a HCP assessment. It’s interesting how many people think their claim pack was perfect when there are often huge gaps and obvious inconsistencies. There are many things which contribute to negative outcomes and the HCP is often a far smaller part of that than claimants think. They just happen to be the most visible.

    In terms of accountability then yes one of the flaws of the process is that the accountability of private companies is inevitably poor but a well done complaint can be very effective and reverse a HCP recommendation to a DM. However, in order to do that the complainant has to focus on arguments they can win. As above, there’s no argument to win on lies unless you have a transcription. There are arguments to win if you know whether they breached their own guidance and when there is clear factual evidence which shows they must be wrong. For example a wholly blind claimant for whom a HCP gave a Snellen reading was one I came across recently. 

    The short answer is that you do an MR if needed and lodge a complaint if it can be evidenced but you stick to demonstrable facts not emotive unprovable assertions.

    i shall correct the first part ?we are asked to supply supporting evidence??now that brings into question why.when an hcp can look at you and state nope that is wrong i will use a freinds claim ?following a crash they suffered soinal damage on acesssmant home one ?they could not or ever do as asked without help yet could stand bend and stand on one leg indeed they could walk fifty yards without difficulty ???REFUSED  mr done refused  mp docter and consultant got involved another mr  given high both  report from hcp used in original decision hcp still assessing others????
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0 Listener
    edited August 2018
    The assessment is not a medical, it's an assessment and nothing more.
    if not a medical why tests ?why eyesight test? why balance test? indeed why any type of physical activity at all you can decline i did and was instructed the acessesment would be refered back to dwp  but as i pointed out i had medical thank you ?i did in the end complete balance holding radiator did one arm lift did pic up bit paper so test was done

  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    What mikehughes stated is correct. The face to face is not a medical because the person doing it is not medically qualified and it is only functional testing and observation. A medical usually involves taking clinical readings and is done by a medically qualified person. Also not all face to face consultations involve functional testing.

    I claim PIP for a physical disability and during my assessment for my review i wasn't asked to do anything...this is because it's not a medical.

    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • YadnadYadnad Member - under moderation Posts: 2,862 Disability Gamechanger
    edited August 2018
    sweet said:







    we know that that is impossible and hcp are not able to decide if you have mental problems unless you demonstrate it on the day of medical 

    I agree that we all know that it is impossible. It took months of work with a psychiatrist and a psychologist to determine the depth and type of mental disorder that I had. On top of that I was constantly assessed, sometimes under section to ensure that the treatment I was receiving was in fact working. This has been ongoing since 1995.

    For the mental health issue in a PIP assessment, the assessor has a huge number of cut and paste comments that they use (14 in total in my assessment report) not to show that there was no impact but to go one step further and try to show that a mental illness was not in existence. 
    In other words they went beyond the terms of the assessment to actually show that the diagnosis was wrong never mind the impact.

    It should not matter how one acts or projects themselves in an assessment setting. In fact it is common that those who do have a mental illness can and do hide it so well that no one can guess it exists. I am one of those - you would never guess that there is anything wrong with me. If evidence is produced that states that such an illness exists that should be good enough for the assessor. They are there to assess the impact not the diagnosis.
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,394 Disability Gamechanger
    edited August 2018
    sweet said:
    The assessment is not a medical, it's an assessment and nothing more.
    if not a medical why tests ?why eyesight test? why balance test? indeed why any type of physical activity at all you can decline i did and was instructed the acessesment would be refered back to dwp  but as i pointed out i had medical thank you ?i did in the end complete balance holding radiator did one arm lift did pic up bit paper so test was done

    None of the above tests are medical tests. Snellen and Jaeger tests can be performed by optometrists etc. Balance tests are always performed by non-medical staff. Functional tests can be performed by anyone. Thus a PIP face to face is not a medical. It is a test of function. Totally different. 

    The comments re: mental health show just how little people understand about the nature of the process. No-one is being assessed as to whether they “have” anything. They’re being assessed for whether the consequences of what they have can trigger any descriptor points.

    A HCP therefore does not always have to ask explicit questions about mental health. They can make observations about what a person was like on the day and there’s nothing wrong with that at all. Where it goes wrong is when that’s used to infer more without anything to support that. That however is usually what a decision maker does, not a HCP.

    The example cited by @sweet is priceless. The HCP reports what they saw. They may have got it hopelessly wrong for the exact reasons I’ve detailed below but they won’t have explicitly said all is okay because the diagnosis won’t have been in dispute. What will have actually happened is that the DWP DM made a decision that the degree of functional impairment overall was not sufficient to score the appropriate points. 
  • YadnadYadnad Member - under moderation Posts: 2,862 Disability Gamechanger

    poppy123456 said:
    What mikehughes stated is correct. The face to face is not a medical because the person doing it is not medically qualified and it is only functional testing and observation. A medical usually involves taking clinical readings and is done by a medically qualified person. Also not all face to face consultations involve functional testing.

    I claim PIP for a physical disability and during my assessment for my review i wasn't asked to do anything...this is because it's not a medical.



    I agree with you Poppy, it is not a medical. 

    I claimed for the impact of having a damaged lower spine, upper spine, and mental illness amongst other things such as debilitating Chronic Pancreatitis, lack of control of type 1 diabetes (due to mental health).

    In all of my three assessments I was told to put hands, arms up, side to side, touch my knees bend forward as well as stand on one foot, not forgetting the usual finger thumb grip.

    I tried to carry out all of the instructed movements as you would if it were a doctor/consultant asking you. Of course I was in pain but managed to carry out all of the 'tests'.

    For the memory/mental health test (Mental Status Examination) I was assessed as able to fulfil all of the requirements, I didn't rock in the chair, I didn't avoid looking at the assessor, I had good insight as to my health conditions, I did not sweat etc I can't now remember all of them but there were 14 reasons given why my mental health is excellent.

    So was mine a medical or just a functional assessment?
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,394 Disability Gamechanger
    None of those things were anything other than a functional assessment. A Physio or OT could ask you to do the same.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0 Listener
    edited August 2018
    okay so thats that then?  post answered sorted over with it is dm not hcp who decides  although i feel that is way way wrong or dm would not follow hcp paperwork but  for an hcp to state a person can walk or carry out tests when medical evidence and eyes say other wise is no mistake or misinformation it is an outright lie and for dm to agree is wrong as remmber dm looks at medical info supplied???not in my view 
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,394 Disability Gamechanger
    Er, it IS the DM who decides. A HCP can only make a recommendation.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0 Listener
    Er, it IS the DM who decides. A HCP can only make a recommendation.
    which the dm useualy follows after all the dm is not qualified in any area of health they are office workers and i add will openly inform you if you ask 

  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,394 Disability Gamechanger
    Totally agree with your last statement. That’s indisputable.
  • YadnadYadnad Member - under moderation Posts: 2,862 Disability Gamechanger
    None of those things were anything other than a functional assessment. A Physio or OT could ask you to do the same.
    Thanks Mike OK if they were all part of the functional assessment, how then is it possible that an OT from Social Services visited my home a year or two ago and assessed me as needing the following equipment.

    An electric bath seat so as to enable me to get into and out of the bath. She also noted that I had to have help to stand up from the chair, have someone wash and dry my lower legs as I could not bend that far as well as wash and dry my back due to an ability to do it myself.

    A bed riser enables me to get in and out of the bed as well as using it to hold onto whilst partly dressing myself. I needed help to put underclothes on, trousers, socks, shoes, shirts etc 

    Two raised toilet seats and framework to hold onto whilst getting off the toilet.

    I won't start on the mental health part as I have had functional assessments coming out of my ears from mental health workers and OT's. Their reports state that I need help with many things and that my short term memory is shot (currently being assessed for early onset dementia) My wife has to come to all appointments be they for the lack of ability to sleep or mental health problems such as sudden bouts of previously unknown acts of violence falling then into deep depression. Or the problems arising out of the lack of control of type 1 diabetes.  All of the people that treat me are aware that to get to the truth they have to ask her. 

    One thing that I am well able to portray is the person that people expect to see and not the person that I really am. Apparently this is common amongst patients of previous high ability.

  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,394 Disability Gamechanger
    I suspect part of the answer lies in the fact the OT assessment was a couple of years ago. 
  • YadnadYadnad Member - under moderation Posts: 2,862 Disability Gamechanger
    I suspect part of the answer lies in the fact the OT assessment was a couple of years ago. 
    It was. Nothing has changed but yes I am aware that I would need to prove that or arrange for SS assessments every 12 months simply for the benefit of the DWP.
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,394 Disability Gamechanger
    Not necessarily, but you would have had to specifically address the point.
  • feirfeir Member Posts: 396 Pioneering
    I've sent all my medical stuff in (some of which contradicts my last assessment, which i got 0 points on). Was texted on thrusday saying assessors are in my area that week and i could make an appointment with them? Why?

    I sent my form in and filled that then sent in my medical stuff to back it up.Don't get why i need another assessment for? Especially when the last person got stuff wrong.


    Btw i need tips on how to 'look' depressed coz they think i am not. Not serious about this btw but how do i get past their ignorance? Not sure how to educate my assessor when they arrive.
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,394 Disability Gamechanger
    The intent of PIP was for almost everyone to get a HCP assessment and for that to be repeated on review/renewal so... that’s why.

    In terms of depression you stand your ground and insist they listen to you explain it in detail and especially the bit about his you look not being who you are. There are several threads on here talking about how you look as though it has some influence. If a HCP is going to err and take a snapshot they’re going to do that regardless of what you look like and the only person who can stop them in their tracks is you, by talking.
  • feirfeir Member Posts: 396 Pioneering
    I had a 10 week therapy course to help me mentally and it was only by the last week that i felt like i trusted this person enough to open up and then my support was gone anyway. I really struggle with this stuff. I'll try though, it'll probably trigger off my anxiety and i break down in front of them anyway. Might ask someone to come to mine and do the talking for me as well.
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,394 Disability Gamechanger
    No one can do the taking for you albeit that you can take someone with you. Sad to say it may be best to let them see you triggered. A sad indictment of the process.
  • debbiedo49debbiedo49 Member Posts: 2,906 Disability Gamechanger
    @feir good luck
    💜🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿
    I am a fibro warrior !💜♏️
  • feirfeir Member Posts: 396 Pioneering
    Maybe @mikehughescq i feel sick/panicking just thinking about it. I'll try but think this will be my last time and then after that i just hope my operations work and i never become this vulnerable again.

    Thanks @debbiedo49 i need it. :smile:
  • YadnadYadnad Member - under moderation Posts: 2,862 Disability Gamechanger
    The intent of PIP was for almost everyone to get a HCP assessment and for that to be repeated on review/renewal so... that’s why.

    In terms of depression you stand your ground and insist they listen to you explain it in detail and especially the bit about his you look not being who you are. There are several threads on here talking about how you look as though it has some influence. If a HCP is going to err and take a snapshot they’re going to do that regardless of what you look like and the only person who can stop them in their tracks is you, by talking.
    All well and good Mike, but my experiences tell me that that is like trying to cut a stone with a butter knife. Never had an assessor that wants to listen. They prefer to control the assessment and wanting you to agree to their statements/opinions.
    Trying to get a word in afterwards only finds you missing the next question. 
  • YadnadYadnad Member - under moderation Posts: 2,862 Disability Gamechanger
    No one can do the taking for you albeit that you can take someone with you. Sad to say it may be best to let them see you triggered. A sad indictment of the process.
    Seriously? For some the trigger will result in tears for others like me it could turn the other way with the assessor running for the hills.
    That is a very dangerous practice - to push someone to that point as they would not know what the reaction would be.
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,394 Disability Gamechanger
    Here’s what the guidance says about taking someone with you.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/personal-independence-payment-assessment-guide-for-assessment-providers

    It’s very poor practice generally in any health setting to not address the patient/claimant when they’re sat in front of you. If there are specific triggers it’s up to a claimant to have explained them in a claim pack else how would a HCP know? 

    I think of it in H&S terms. Many people want employers to manage risk down to zero when that is physically impossible. Similarly, many patients want nothing to do with a process which may trigger them and act as though as long as DWP don’t trigger them then all is well when in fact lots of things could trigger them every day and yet they don’t avoid them. It’s a bit like the “I need a home visit because I don’t go out” which often, not always, translates as “going out triggers me so I only do it when I have to. I don’t like benefit related stuff and I don’t think this is a “have to” scenario.” Er, yes, it is.
  • YadnadYadnad Member - under moderation Posts: 2,862 Disability Gamechanger
    edited August 2018
    Here’s what the guidance says about taking someone with you.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/personal-independence-payment-assessment-guide-for-assessment-providers

    It’s very poor practice generally in any health setting to not address the patient/claimant when they’re sat in front of you. If there are specific triggers it’s up to a claimant to have explained them in a claim pack else how would a HCP know? 

    I think of it in H&S terms. Many people want employers to manage risk down to zero when that is physically impossible. Similarly, many patients want nothing to do with a process which may trigger them and act as though as long as DWP don’t trigger them then all is well when in fact lots of things could trigger them every day and yet they don’t avoid them. It’s a bit like the “I need a home visit because I don’t go out” which often, not always, translates as “going out triggers me so I only do it when I have to. I don’t like benefit related stuff and I don’t think this is a “have to” scenario.” Er, yes, it is.
    Thanks Mike. First off, I thought I knew what there was to know about PIP before I joined this website. Now I realise I knew very little. Everything I now know has come from being on here.

    As for having someone with me, yes I did take my wife with me to the first assessment. We both sat down and then I went to the desk to sign in. Doing that I asked the woman if my wife was needed to be with me at the assessment. She told me that there was no need to actually go in with me. So I went in on my own as I did for the second and third assessments. Only recently finding out that she really should have gone with me as I do not open up to strangers until I have the measure of them - it's a self protection thing.

    As I have said I have never had an assessment where it has been a two way discussion
    Now I find the following guidance that the assessor should follow but didn't.

    1.6.8 The approach should be relaxed, allowing the claimant time and encouraging them to talk about themselves and put across the impact of their health condition or disability in their own words. The claimant and any companion should feel fully involved in the process and feel that the consultation is a genuine two-way process. Summarising back to the claimant what has been said is useful to show active listening and to ensure that key pieces of information have been correctly heard.

    No idea why my assessments were carried out the way they were.

    As for laying out what triggers there are with me would probably end up with the assessor refusing to see me on the grounds on her/his safety. I certainly wouldn't want to describe what I get like and what could happen - one of the reasons why I have been previously sectioned - not so much for my safety but for those around me.

    Now having said that are you saying that that is exactly what I should have put out before the assessment process?
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,394 Disability Gamechanger
    Hard as it may seem, yes. Unless there’s some other contemporaneous documentary evidence then what chance has a HCP got? They can’t mind read. Had you opened up or your wife been in the room you’d possibly be on PIP now and, given what you’ve said, you’d be a paper only assessment too.

    Granted good tribunals are good at bringing this stuff out better than HCPs bit that’s a training and life experience issue (so back to my earlier post about why a HCP might do what they do). A tribunal judge has at least 10 years experience as a practising solicitor before they even get to enter a tribunal room and so on. The problem as I see it is that, albeit understandably, people attack the person they interact with and lose sight of the fact that the real problem is not a “liar” blah blah blah but the process.
  • YadnadYadnad Member - under moderation Posts: 2,862 Disability Gamechanger
    Hard as it may seem, yes. Unless there’s some other contemporaneous documentary evidence then what chance has a HCP got? They can’t mind read. Had you opened up or your wife been in the room you’d possibly be on PIP now and, given what you’ve said, you’d be a paper only assessment too.

    Granted good tribunals are good at bringing this stuff out better than HCPs bit that’s a training and life experience issue (so back to my earlier post about why a HCP might do what they do). A tribunal judge has at least 10 years experience as a practising solicitor before they even get to enter a tribunal room and so on. The problem as I see it is that, albeit understandably, people attack the person they interact with and lose sight of the fact that the real problem is not a “liar” blah blah blah but the process.
    Maybe Mike, but I say again, all three assessors did not conduct the assessments in accordance with what their guidance tells them. They clearly were not interested in wanting any input from me other than to agree with comments and opinions that they had already formed. There were no two way conversations, there were no open questions asked. Even after a short while it was plainly obvious to me that I had to keep my mouth shut whilst they conducted the assessment their way.
    Now I do admit to the feeling of my anger rising at times in that I had to sit there whilst they judged me but thankfully I was able to control myself.
    As I have also said I was green to the whole system. I had no help and received no prior advice as to what I could or couldn't do.
    The receptionist was clear in her statement that my wife would not need to go in with me - it was only myself they wanted to talk to .I couldn't start calling her a liar nor could I quote from assessors guidance; we just accepted what she said, trusting that she knew what she was saying and us trusting in the system.

    Anyhow all of this is in the past now but as I have said I have learned more in the past few weeks about this subject than in the 5 years that I have been fighting the system.
    Maybe those that do look and persevere looking for the advice and help are doing the right thing - my way in just accepting the first thing that is said (ie no room at the inn by the CAB) was plain stupid - I will have to live with that.
  • feirfeir Member Posts: 396 Pioneering
    Wasn't even for a home visit, it was for me to go to an assessment centre. Had to humiliate myself by explaining why i need a home visit now, this stuff is getting easier the more i do it though. Just got to accept that being disabled = explaining myself in ways i am uncomfortable with.
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,394 Disability Gamechanger
    @feir I can fully understand the discomfort but as you say it gets easier the more you do it.
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