PIP, DLA and AA
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Attendance allowance

pebblescurtispebblescurtis Member Posts: 2 Listener
My father being diagnosed with bladder cancer 2 years ago and been having treatment and just asking if he could be entitled to attendence allowance he is 74 thanku

Replies

  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • YadnadYadnad Posts: 2,856 Member
    edited October 2018
    That link does not agree with the link from the CAB

    as for daytime care the link you have put up - 
    • frequent help with personal care throughout the day (ie about three times or more)
    • someone to check on you continually (ie frequently or regularly) throughout the day to make sure that you are safe
    whereas the CAB say -
    https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/benefits/sick-or-disabled-people-and-carers/attendance-allowance/before-you-claim-attendance-allowance/check-if-entitled-to-attendance-allowance/

    You should apply for Attendance Allowance if you have a disability or illness and need help or supervision throughout the day.

    I don't want to play with words but 'frequent' is quoted which does not appear in the CAB advice. Then it goes on to give an example that at least three times would meet 'frequent' and 'throughout'

    The CAB advice is quite simple and clear - throughout

    Throughout means from the start of the day until the end of the day.

    I have also been looking to claim this but to me the CAB advice means help or supervision throughout (continually) the day - 3 times or more is not throughout or continual.

    Why is there such a broad difference between the definitions of the criteria?  
  • MisscleoMisscleo Member Posts: 646 Pioneering
    Many thanks for your info.
    Shoes we have to read mkte than one link
  • YadnadYadnad Posts: 2,856 Member
    edited October 2018
    I always check various sources to either confirm something or not.

    In this case the online advice is far apart. It seems to suggest that a claim should be made on what the words used actually mean.
    Throughout is central to this as is continual and frequent. 

    If someone can tell us what the actual definition is as used by the DWP then we may be getting somewhere. To suggest that care needed need not exceed 3 times in a day to be classed as throughout and/or continual is stretching it a bit.

    Some would say forget the advice just put a claim in, But if the online advice suggests that a claim would not be accepted do you fill out a complicated form for the sake of completing it.

    It's like the advice saying that AA can only be claimed if you are over 65, but a 55 year old ignores that and puts in a claim anyhow.

  • BenefitsTrainingCoBenefitsTrainingCo Member Posts: 2,692 Pioneering
    edited October 2018
    Hi all,

    The link to the regulations is here:

    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1992/4/section/64/enacted

    You must need frequent attention throughout the day, or during the middle of the day, as well as in the morning and evening. It depends on the pattern of your accepted care needs. Frequent means 'several times - not once or twice' (R(A)2/80). 
    'Continual supervision' means frequent or regular, but not non-stop. 

    Lee
    The Benefits Training Co:
    Paul Bradley
    Michael Chambers
    Will Hadwen
    Sarah Hayle
    Maria Solomon
    David Stickland
  • YadnadYadnad Posts: 2,856 Member
    edited October 2018
    Right so the gist of it is: 
    frequent attention throughout the day - as per the legislation.

    So to translate according the English dictionary - frequent - occurring or done many times at short intervals.
    Several is not recorded as being part of the legislation so can be ignored.

    Attention which is occurring or done many times at short intervals throughout the day.

    So in effect the needs need to arise throughout the day on a frequent basis that is that they arise many times at short intervals.

    Now I get it. it cannot be 10mins first thing in the morning, an hour at lunch time and another 10mins at bedtime.
     It should be throughout the day not just parts of the day.as defined by frequency.

    Nope that's definitely not me at the present time. I don't need to be looked after throughout the day.

  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    @Yadnad i'm actaully very surprised you don't know the criteria for claiming AA..
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • YadnadYadnad Posts: 2,856 Member
    edited October 2018
    @Yadnad i'm actaully very surprised you don't know the criteria for claiming AA..
    Are you? Well I'm not.

    I have never read so much gobbly gook as that piece of legislation.
    I think I now know what it means now.

    It doesn't help when the definition of 'frequent' isn't entirely clear.
    It was said to me that it means several times - not once or twice 
    So presumably that means three times or more.
    Yet the English dictionary shows it to mean 'occurring or done many times at short intervals'.

    The two definitions do not read the same. Is it once in the morning (9.30 am), once at noon and again in the early evening (6.00pm).

    Or does it mean that the help needed arises many times with short intervals in between throughout the day 

    You work that one out.

    If it is the former then I am entitled to make a claim, but if it is the latter then I do not fit the criteria to make a claim.
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,936 Disability Gamechanger
    You want a solution to a problem that doesn’t exist. You’re finding complexity where none exists. 

    1) The tighter and more prescriptively you define something the more people are easily excluded.

    2) Frequent, like all terms in legislation, is given a plain English meaning unless something else is explicitly suggested. Most reasonable people would understand the frequency of something as being defined by what it is you’re doing. If I say I go to the football frequently they would understand that to not mean three times a day. On the other hand if I say I urinate frequently they would understand I was referring to something I already do throughout the day but personally have to do more frequently. To define it by using some number would be plainly idiotic. 

    3) In this case it is defined by context and the context could not be clearer. “… throughout the day”. So, if you do something more frequently than healthy people but only early morning then you don’t qualify. How frequently is enough is then a matter of judgement depending, again, on the activity. Urinating throughout the day every 3 hours is hardly traumatic. Urinating every hour also so. Every 20 minutes would clearly be an issue. Every 30 minutes? Arguable. Depends on the wider context of what other help you need with other activities over the same period. So, if urinating say once an hour was combined with a continence issue; the need to wash clothes and bedding and a mobility issue then a case could be made and so on. 
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    Yadnad said:
    @Yadnad i'm actaully very surprised you don't know the criteria for claiming AA..
    Are you? Well I'm not.

    I have never read so much gobbly gook as that piece of legislation.
    I think I now know what it means now.

    It doesn't help when the definition of 'frequent' isn't entirely clear.
    It was said to me that it means several times - not once or twice 
    So presumably that means three times or more.
    Yet the English dictionary shows it to mean 'occurring or done many times at short intervals'.

    The two definitions do not read the same. Is it once in the morning (9.30 am), once at noon and again in the early evening (6.00pm).

    Or does it mean that the help needed arises many times with short intervals in between throughout the day 

    You work that one out.

    If it is the former then I am entitled to make a claim, but if it is the latter then I do not fit the criteria to make a claim.
    Doesn't your wife claim AA or am i mistaken here?
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • YadnadYadnad Posts: 2,856 Member
    edited October 2018
    Yadnad said:
    @Yadnad i'm actaully very surprised you don't know the criteria for claiming AA..
    Are you? Well I'm not.

    I have never read so much gobbly gook as that piece of legislation.
    I think I now know what it means now.

    It doesn't help when the definition of 'frequent' isn't entirely clear.
    It was said to me that it means several times - not once or twice 
    So presumably that means three times or more.
    Yet the English dictionary shows it to mean 'occurring or done many times at short intervals'.

    The two definitions do not read the same. Is it once in the morning (9.30 am), once at noon and again in the early evening (6.00pm).

    Or does it mean that the help needed arises many times with short intervals in between throughout the day 

    You work that one out.

    If it is the former then I am entitled to make a claim, but if it is the latter then I do not fit the criteria to make a claim.
    Doesn't your wife claim AA or am i mistaken here?
    Yes she does and to be honest I have no idea how it happened. The first attempt was thrown out of court with the judge telling me that I was not a credible witness as well as being a drug dealer involved with my wife.Then within days of that decision we started to cobble together another claim and had an OT come to the house from Social Services to assess her. She arranged for some equipment to be supplied and fitted. Then I put her name on the application form for the DWP to contact her if they needed to and posted it off.  All I know is that she telephoned me a few weeks later to tell me that she had spoken at length with the DWP after they telephoned her and she had completed a form that they asked of her. The next thing that happened was that my wife received an award letter for the day & night care rate indefinitely.

    As I have said, how all that came about I have no idea, I presume it was because of what the OT had said to them. 

    I'm thinking of claiming AA instead of PIP thinking that it would be easier. But when trying to work out if I would be entitled I hit upon asking questions on here and that is how I have got to the position I am in. I don't have anybody to speak me as they did for my wife, so I want to do a good job myself.
  • YadnadYadnad Posts: 2,856 Member
    edited October 2018
    You want a solution to a problem that doesn’t exist. You’re finding complexity where none exists. 

    1) The tighter and more prescriptively you define something the more people are easily excluded.

    2) Frequent, like all terms in legislation, is given a plain English meaning unless something else is explicitly suggested. Most reasonable people would understand the frequency of something as being defined by what it is you’re doing. If I say I go to the football frequently they would understand that to not mean three times a day. On the other hand if I say I urinate frequently they would understand I was referring to something I already do throughout the day but personally have to do more frequently. To define it by using some number would be plainly idiotic. 

    3) In this case it is defined by context and the context could not be clearer. “… throughout the day”. So, if you do something more frequently than healthy people but only early morning then you don’t qualify. How frequently is enough is then a matter of judgement depending, again, on the activity. Urinating throughout the day every 3 hours is hardly traumatic. Urinating every hour also so. Every 20 minutes would clearly be an issue. Every 30 minutes? Arguable. Depends on the wider context of what other help you need with other activities over the same period. So, if urinating say once an hour was combined with a continence issue; the need to wash clothes and bedding and a mobility issue then a case could be made and so on. 
    1. But isn't that the intention of the DWP?

    2. Lee from Benefits Training above posted - Frequent means 'several times - not once or twice' (R(A)2/80). So using your analogy I actually have to urinate more frequently than the normal person due to a high blood sugar readings (Type 1 diabetic). But for that no matter how often it was I wouldn't need help.

    3. Right so I shouldn't isolate every bit of help needed by reference to one of many health issues I have (ie in a list form) - I should look at all of the health issues as one to identify if the help needed is created because of the whole?
    As an example I have, as I have said, the need in the early evening to pass urine every 20/30mins Additional to this is that I am extremely thirsty and have to have fluid at the same rate to put back what I am losing. Walking to the kitchen is painful so I have my wife get it for me. Also because of a bladder issue I very rarely empty my bladder fully which leads me to leak into my clothing which I then have to wash myself and change clothing. It then goes on and on with other issues coming into play such as not remembering to take my medication because of the head injury it has left me with short term memory loss. Without the medication...…………………. .

    OK
    So what I am looking at is describing a 24 hour period so to speak identifying the regular needs, why they exist and what I need to do to solve them.
    Gee put it like that even now without really thinking about it I'm starting to realise how much I have done to adapt - it makes me feel useless the more I think about it. As an example I have to go down the stairs on my bum as I am not safe walking down the stairs. I have to go up the stairs on all fours because of walking issues.

    Yet I have adapted when I am out and push myself to actually walk up and down stairs with my wife helping me or to be frank - I find a reason to avoid stairs!.
      
    This all needs a lot more thought and time to try to put together all of this information and the way I should be thinking about all of the avoidance I do and ways I have adapted my life to get the best out of it.

  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,936 Disability Gamechanger
    1) DWP do not and never have written legislation. “Intent” comes from ministers. Civil servants and the treasury as well as DWP guidance can screw that up royally but that’s another story.

    2) Nothing to add. The caselaw quoted remains accurate. Nothing I’ve said contradicts it.

    3) The law has always said “frequent attention throughout the day in connection with bodily functions”. Couldn’t be clearer. It does it refer to the need for any kind of breakdown. Your way overthinking it.
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