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Just to ask if anyone can help with PCN ticket?

tobehappytobehappy Member Posts: 21 Listener

Replies

  • tobehappytobehappy Member Posts: 21 Listener
    Just to ask if anyone can help with PCN ticket. I received one for forgetting to set my clock badge to correct time although badge was displayed ticket received for overstaying in a 3hour time limit zone with no return within an hour. This was after 6.00pm. I have challenged it but they will not back down. Any help would be greatly appreciated. 
  • Sam_ScopeSam_Scope Member Posts: 7,732 Disability Gamechanger
    Hi @tobehappy
    I dont know about this but there is some information about appealing a parking ticket here.

    i hope someone else will be able to offer their thoughts soon :)
    Scope
    Senior online community officer
  • MarkmywordsMarkmywords Member Posts: 419 Pioneering
    I am not a lawyer but I've beaten several attempts to extort money from me.
    When you are on a private car park a ticket is just an invoice from a company. They see it that you have breached an implied contract.
    Take photos of the sign in the car park. If the sign says no restrictions after 6pm or it does not clearly say that the clock must be set then their claim is a lie.
    Small print on a sign that cannot be read from the car is an unfair term and would be unenforceable.
    If you find you are correct in how you remembered it then you have two options; you can pay it for a quiet life or tell them that you will see them in court.

    Just for reference, even on the actual highway, forgetting to set the clock is not a punishable offence in law. I've beaten one of those too.
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Community champion Posts: 22,214 Disability Gamechanger
    Hi,

    When using a blue badge in a timed parking space you must display the clock as well as the badge, if you don't then they don't know the time you arrived. Having a blue badge doesn't mean you can park for as long as you want, even in a timed space. Believe it or not some local councils and traffic wardens work until 7pm, they do where i live. Having already challenged it and they didn't change their minds there's really nothing more you can do. When using my blue badge i always make sure i add the time, this way if a time is needed there's no problems with tickets etc.
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • tobehappytobehappy Member Posts: 21 Listener
    Thank you for your comments everyone but it was “on street parking” ( not in a car park). On this occasion I simply forgot & I always set the clock. I was attending the theatre & sent in my tickets as evidence as to the reason for being parked. This happened in the evening at 9.25 Poppy so they really do work late. In the same street across the road there is paid parking until 6.00pm. From then on there are no restrictions for normal parking but where I was parked there is a 3hour time limit for disabled parking & I have since found out that this is enforceable 24hours per day 7 days a week....but no signage... strange when normal parking has no restrictions that I know off after 6.00pm......I then ask myself surely this must be discrimination to restrict disabled & not normal parking even though it is on the opposite side of the road. Markmywords in their response to me (PCN for Northampton County Council) they referred to Blue Badge Rules for parking... which is true for setting clock times but we are human & can forget. Does anyone know of all the parking signs in Guildhall Road Northampton or had a ticket themselves for this. 
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Community champion Posts: 22,214 Disability Gamechanger
    Were you parked on single or double yellow lines?
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • tobehappytobehappy Member Posts: 21 Listener
    There are no lines at all in this street white or yellow Poppy. They modernised the road a couple of years ago. So difficult to understand. 
  • MarkmywordsMarkmywords Member Posts: 419 Pioneering
    It sounds as though you actually did overstay then @tobehappy and it was not just that you forgot the clock.
    Indeed you are legally required to set the clock but as the Road Traffic Act states there is no legal punishment for not doing so.
    In my case the numpty of a warden wrote that I was "not showing a valid badge."
    This fine was thrown out by the council themselves although they felt obliged to throw in a dig and a threat at me.
  • tobehappytobehappy Member Posts: 21 Listener
    No Markmywords I didn’t overstay as my clock  was set at a previous time...  I just forgot to reset it when going to the theatre. That’s where the over time limit applied as my clock was set at 3.30 from before.
    Can you tell me where in the Road Traffic Act it states no legal punishment for this even though it’s a legal requirement to display the clock badge. That seems strange that they can issue a PCN for it doesn’t it. 
    As it said earlier it also seems strange that normal parking after 6.00pm has no restrictions but disabled applies a 3hour time limit enforaceable 24hours 7days a week but no signage for this. !

  • poppy123456poppy123456 Community champion Posts: 22,214 Disability Gamechanger
    As there were no yellow lines, was there a sign stating 3 hours parking limit at all? Usually if there's a time limit there will be a small sign with a blue outline i think. Sometimes these signs are on walls, so you do need to look closely, as i've almost missed them sometimes. You only need to display the clock when there's a time limit restriction and when parking on single or double yellow lines.

    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • tobehappytobehappy Member Posts: 21 Listener
    That’s where my problem lies Poppy.  This was the photographic evidence they used... the small sign displaying 3hours time limit but no enforceable sign stating that it applies 24hours per day & 7days per week. I can’t find this either in the blue badge regs as it was after 6.00pm.  As I forgot to set my clock to the correct time they used the time that was already on my badge as being set at 3.30 so effectively it looks like it was over the time limit. My fault for not setting clock as I said from the beginning but need to find out if that sign is legally enforceable after 6.00pm in regards to normal parking on other side of the road with no restrictions. I just can’t find anything about it anywhere in the blue badge regs. 
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Community champion Posts: 22,214 Disability Gamechanger
    Some councils enforce the limits 24/7 and they apply to BB holders too. If you can't find it in their parking enforcement guidelines then you need to ask them to provide you with evidence that this enforcement exists. Good luck.
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • tobehappytobehappy Member Posts: 21 Listener
    Thanks Poppy I have already asked them for evidence of this ... as yet no response just that they confirmed this in writing from before. I even asked the council highways of all signs in that road but they couldn’t help either. All help appreciated as time is running out whether to pay or appeal although I’m seriously considering the Equally Act 2010 if I don’t pay. 
  • tobehappytobehappy Member Posts: 21 Listener
    oops should read Equality Act 2010
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Community champion Posts: 22,214 Disability Gamechanger
    I think expert advice and i'm not sure you're going to get that by posting here. I hope you get the answers you're looking for. Good luck.
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • tobehappytobehappy Member Posts: 21 Listener
    Problem is timescales now Poppy. Hopefully someone here will be able to help in time. Never give up is my motto. Thank you for your input too. 
  • MarkmywordsMarkmywords Member Posts: 419 Pioneering
    There are no circumstances when it's ok to reset a badge clock @tobehappy . that would be dishonest.
    There are a great many laws that do not have set punishments especially in the RTA.
  • tobehappytobehappy Member Posts: 21 Listener
    I think you’ve misread this markmywords. I am not talking about resetting badge clock but the time the clock was set was from a previous use  & I just forgot to set the new time hence the PCN if you know what I mean. I attended the theatre in the evening not the afternoon as I evidenced to them. That’s why I am looking for help. 
  • MarkmywordsMarkmywords Member Posts: 419 Pioneering
    Ah, in that case the clock setting alone does not warrant a ticket under the RTA or the Blue Badge Regulations.
    Your council has made an error in law. I am sure of this because I've read the laws and my council accepted the error and cancelled my ticket.
    Sadly the public sector do not always admit when they are in the wrong. All you can do is point out their error to them as going to court would be impractical. You should check the wording used on the ticket too in case they are incorrect.
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Community champion Posts: 22,214 Disability Gamechanger
    Ah, in that case the clock setting alone does not warrant a ticket under the RTA or the Blue Badge Regulations.
    Your council has made an error in law. I am sure of this because I've read the laws and my council accepted the error and cancelled my ticket.
    Sadly the public sector do not always admit when they are in the wrong. All you can do is point out their error to them as going to court would be impractical. You should check the wording used on the ticket too in case they are incorrect.
    I'm not convinced this is correct here. Tobehappy parked in a street which was time restricted but it was after 7 pm that the ticket was issued. What they're asking is, is time restrictions enforced 24/7. My answer, some are and some aren't, it depends on the local council.
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • tobehappytobehappy Member Posts: 21 Listener
    Thanks Markmywords & Poppy but it’s a case that  need answers for & maybe have to accept the PCN or seek legal advice. I certainly do not want a accept the ticket & have asked the Northampton Council & Highways for answers to no avail. Legal answers needed on 
    1) Is it an actually a legal offence when someone forgets to display badge clock even though BB regulations state you must? ( The council acknowledged my B.B. but stated I neglected to display the correct time in their response. Really harsh I wrote back to them as being absented minded & forgot. )
    2) Is it a legal requirement for 24hours 7days a week enforcement to have signs to display this?
    3) Is it a legal requirement to allow able bodied free parking after 6.00pm with no restrictions on one side of the road but enforce the 24hours 7days a week 3hour time limit for disabled parking. 

  • poppy123456poppy123456 Community champion Posts: 22,214 Disability Gamechanger
    Have you looked for expert advice? Surely time is ticking for this parking fine to be paid otherwise it's going to escalate further.
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • MarkmywordsMarkmywords Member Posts: 419 Pioneering
    Time restrictions are absolutely fixed. If one is using the badge privileges a different set of rules apply. It is very very petty though to enforce them when the non-disabled rules have turned off.
    However there is no connection to a badge clock in any event. The clock setting does not cause an overstay. Physically being there too long does.Clock mistakes are simply not punishable in law.
    The wording on the ticket is everything.
  • tobehappytobehappy Member Posts: 21 Listener
    Only have until Tuesday to pay as they didn’t respond to my appeal until earlier this week. That’s why I was asking for help. Other than that will be served Notice to Owner. 
    The clock setting did cause the problem though as that’s what they used in photo evidence when issuing ticket. Time showed 15.30 on Badge. (As I forgot to change the time from previous use)
    Actual wording on ticket 
    Contravention: Code 300
    Parked for longer than permitted ( blue badge holder)
    Observed from 21.18 to 21.25
    Therefore it does go by what’s on your badge clock time. 
  • MarkmywordsMarkmywords Member Posts: 419 Pioneering
    They have no evidence and are quoting the clock?
    They don't have a leg to stand on. Are you prepared to fight though?
    I've been there and done that. I won.
  • tobehappytobehappy Member Posts: 21 Listener
    I am now Markmywords. I’ve also looked at that Code 300 there’s no such code. It should be code 30. Not only that I’ve also looked up that they are supposed to wait 10mins to issue an instant PCN ....they only waited 7mins if you check their times of  observing the car at 21.18 & they it issued at 21.25. There’s 2 mistakes they have also made. As I said we are only human & can make errors. Will they be penilised for their mistake!
  • tobehappytobehappy Member Posts: 21 Listener
    What happened in your case Markmywords. It’s all good to know if it helps others. 
  • MarkmywordsMarkmywords Member Posts: 419 Pioneering
    edited October 2018
    I parked in a time-limited bay on a public road. I completely forgot to set the clock and it was at something random.
    A ticket was left that said "failed to display a valid blue badge in disabled bay."
    I appealed online saying that I certainly did have and display a current badge and that I had checked and the wrongly set clock did not by law invalidate a ticket. The warden was trying it on.
    The council wrote back with an acceptance of the error and included a photo of the badge in the car taken by the warden which completely disproved their own position.
    They couldn't let it lie though and included the threat "if at some point in the future you do fail to display a valid badge we will use the full weight of he law." Petty little bureaucrats.
    The law does say you must set the clock but there is no punishment if you don't. Just as parking on a verge is illegal but on it's own carries no penalty.
    So as the clock is set by the driver, who can make a mistake, it is not sufficient to be used as evidence.
  • tobehappytobehappy Member Posts: 21 Listener
    I have to laugh markmywords as yet again they make another mistake. You did exactly the same thing as me by forgetting to set your clock despite like me having your badge on display. They never gave you a ticket on forgetting the clock issue but gave you it on the badge. I am glad you appealed it as they did not even issue the correct PCN code.
    Thats 1)incorrect code they gave me on the ticket although definitely a mistake 2) Failing to wait the10minute observation time before issuing an instant ticket (they waited 7 for mine) & 3) issuing you a ticket for failing to display badge & not issuing it for clock setting. Just terrible isn’t it. 
    Funny you mentioned insufficient evidence on the clock issue as that is exactly what they are using with myself. As I said before penilised for forgetting or in their words I neglected to set the correct time. 
  • MarkmywordsMarkmywords Member Posts: 419 Pioneering
    I was relieved that the council didn't fight to the bitter end in spite of the facts. We've all seen lots of evidence on here of the public sector disobeying their own rules and even statues too.
  • tobehappytobehappy Member Posts: 21 Listener
    They are certainly not accepting my reasons Markmywords. Disgraceful I think especially when it was evidenced for my being there & my apology for admitting my mistake. Mmm decisions decisions lol. 
  • tobehappytobehappy Member Posts: 21 Listener
    Just an update on my PCN ticket. As my informal challenge failed I decided to appeal formally & had to wait on my Notice to Owner to come through to do this. NTO has also been rejected by the council again with the same reason as before. Got it yesterday. ( Nice Xmas present !) They did not mention anything on what I had written except after considering my appeal it was rejected. They clearly wrote againThe BB handbook clearly states that in England & Wales, where you park on yellow lines or another place where there is a time restriction you need to display the blue badge parking disc to show your time of arrival of arrival As a 3hour time limit applies 
    As the driver had failed to comply with the guidelines regarding their use of the BB & neglected to set their clock correctly, I am unable to withdraw the PCN. I am sorry that I am unable to offer you a more favourable outcome on this occasion. This is the exact same wording as before. It appears that they have not even read my reasons for appealing. I am certainly going to appeal this further to TPT & hope for the best & in my favour. 
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Community champion Posts: 22,214 Disability Gamechanger
    You were parked on double yellow lines in on street parking. The 3 hour time limit applies, what ever time of day/night you park. I'm still really confused why you think they're wrong. Forgetting to set the time on your BB isn't going to help you here, it's your responsibility to make sure it's set. I really do wish you good luck in appealing this further.
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • MarkmywordsMarkmywords Member Posts: 419 Pioneering
    "Need to display the blue badge parking disc." The BB handbook is not the law. As with the Highway Code, "should" means one thing but "must" is a reference to the law.

    "Failed to comply with the guidelines"
    Wow, it's like they are self-destructing right in front of you. Guidelines aren't statutory offences. Duh !

    All the above and claiming the clock setting proves an overstay!

    If you have exhausted the Council's process then yes you might be at the stage for the Traffic Penalty Tribunal

    The word "jobsworth" was invented for local councils. They mustn't get away with trying to re-write the law to suit themselves.

    Best of luck
  • tobehappytobehappy Member Posts: 21 Listener
    I agree Guidelines are not statutory & not set in stone. The other reason is there was no yellow lines just a small sign over 7 metres away from where I was parked & it was fairly dark at the time when I arrived around 7ish for the theatre. An appeal for parking mistakes is there to be used & to be called neglectful is insulting. Everyone can forget at times not withstanding already having other mental issue to contend with.  I have nothing to lose now Poppy & Markmywords so TPT here I come. 
  • tobehappytobehappy Member Posts: 21 Listener
    Poppy I didn’t say they were wrong, I was appealing for a simple parking error of forgetting to set clock badge time & given the time of night I was parked,no yellow lines & supplying the evidence for being there I think it’s worth an appeal. To be perfectly honest the theatre is parked right opposite where I was parked in Guildhall Road Northampton. 
  • YadnadYadnad Member - under moderation Posts: 2,862 Disability Gamechanger
    edited December 2018
    Isn't this an absolute offence? One of the conditions for allowing you to park where you did is that you place your clock showing the time of arrival with your badge on the dashboard.
    It doesn't matter if you forgot or a mouse ran over it and tipped it over or that a tornado bounced the car so that it fell on the floor the clock was not showing the time of parking up.
    Many times I have had to go back to the car if I can't remember putting the Blue Badge up or even locking the car.
    Being forgetful is not acceptable. The next time I go into Currys and walk out with a 55" TV and if stopped expecting my excuse to be accepted - oh I forgot to pay?
    Or maybe forgetting to lock the front door of the home and finding in the morning that you had been burgled. I doubt that the insurance company would pay out if they were told that you just forget to lock up when I went to bed.

    Surely the stress of all of this argument and attending hearings isn't worth the  £120 fine?
  • tobehappytobehappy Member Posts: 21 Listener
    Hiya everyone just to let you that I won my PCN appeal. No offence..no case. Just been heard today with TPT. Thank you for input & thank goodness it’s over. 
  • clpclp Member Posts: 39 Connected
    @tobehappy
    Well done and also thanks for the warning - I live in Northampton.  The parking for blue badge holders is often confusing and they do seem to have a tendency to "lose" yellow lines.
  • MarkmywordsMarkmywords Member Posts: 419 Pioneering
    Well done @tobehappy . Justice has prevailed plus you might have helped other disabled people in the future if it makes the local authority think twice.
    You've been strong, victorious and vindicated. :)
  • tobehappytobehappy Member Posts: 21 Listener
    Thank you Markmywords. 
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