My second assessment

emw

hi i am a disabled lady of 60 ad will be facing my second assessment some time this year i lost my higher mobility last time and waited a year before my appeal was heard and won dreading my second assessment because of how the so called nurse sat and wrote a pack of lies about me it is wrong that we must go through this it should be up to our doctors that should decide whether we are ft for work not an unmedically trained lying penpusher 

Antonia_Alumni

Hi @emw

Welcome to the community. I am sorry to hear this. But I am happy you won your appeal in the end. Best wishes with your second assessment and please keep us updated.

Benistmonk

Same thing keeps happening to me, won at tribunal 3 times and a nurse gave me 0 points. They have to lie to keep themselves in work. 

Yadnad

Maybe the DWP/assessor simply doesn't agree with what the Tribunal awarded. They have had to accept it but can't agree that it is the right decision

emw

no Yanad they get a bonus for every sick or disabled person they illegally cure on paper they have no medical training but think they know better than your doctors or consultants it is wrong immoral and a persecution of the vulnerable 

Bungalow

There are no bonuses for underscoring just as there is no bonus for incorrect information or errors . However there are bonuses for completing a set amount of assessments per day over your quota, hence the likelihood of errors and poor reports .

Yadnad

Bungalow said:

There are no bonuses for underscoring just as there is no bonus for incorrect information or errors . However there are bonuses for completing a set amount of assessments per day over your quota, hence the likelihood of errors and poor reports .

There is no evidence to link the volume of cases assessed in a day/week to the level of any errors found.

And of course it is normal to pay more for doing more work. 

Yadnad

ilovecats said:

That isn't quite accurate.

Fully qualified HCP's see 4 people a day. It takes about 2 hours per person including the writing up time.

Occasionally if a report is fairly simple and doesn't take too long, they will offer to see another person at the end of the day. This is to help the admin staff out and to avoid cancellations. They do not get paid any extra for doing this and do so just to be a team player and try and get the waiting lists down.

If they volunteer for overtime at the weekend they they may be paid an enhanced rate (time and a half or double pay) but again, they will only be expected to see 4 people maximum. 

Payment has nothing to do with what people are scored and even if they scored everyone nothing or gave everyone double enhanced it wouldn't make a difference to their pay.

All nice and jolly with everybody 'mucking in' to help others out. Sounds like the ideal place to work.
But taking this back a few posts, we all know including myself that glaring errors do appear in some assessment reports - Takes dog for walk - haven't got a dog or indeed any pet, does not have any mental health issues - the PIP2 states otherwise as does the evidence from the GP and CMHT for Older People, was seen to be 'shuffling' papers and continually reading from them - actually holding my passport and the appointment letter which was shown to the receptionist.

If the assessor has two hours, and has spent the hour of the assessment continually typing, how can the report and not just my reports - all 3 of them over the past 5 years, be so wrong factually?

Yadnad

Thank you for explaining that to me - it does give some closure as to how my own personal assessments ended up as fairy tales.
Your last few lines says it all. I can't change how I am around some people so will just have to accept the consequences. 

As for leaving evidence for the case manager to read, most of us know that they do not read this evidence preferring to just accept what the assessor recommends when making the decision probably thinking that if it is wrong then that's the claimants problem - let him/her appeal. 

cristobal

@ilovecats - thanks for your posts on this...like @yadnad I'm finding them most illuminating!!

Could I ask one further thing which will almost certainly be able to address a major concern that I had?

Much of my assessment was an interview along the lines of "Can you walk to x", "Do you have a downstairs bathroom?", "How often do you go to the supermarket?" My responses to these, and many others, were wrongly recorded. Now I accept that everyone makes mistakes, particularly if you are forced to do a "rush job", but I'm struggling to see how there could be so many errors (unless the interviewer was having a really bad day) Many of the questions (about seven or eight) required a Yes/ No answer.

Worryingly, in my case there was some information included that I wasn't even asked about and the only conclusion I can come to is that the HCP forgot to ask and made it up afterwards. This could be the same with the questions above - she guessed whether I've got a bathroom downstairs because she never asked me.

Does this happen, in your experience? Surely once the interview process is concluded then that's it, there's no scope for 'adding' bits afterwards?

Thanks for all of the info you've provided...

Government_needs_reform

One example here.

Something to think about regarding bonuses and assessments. people seem to think that assements are 2 hours a time, no they are not, many are done within half hour or less. This is where mistakes and the untruths and shoddy reports are done, it's all about money.

cristobal

@ilovecats - thanks for your very honest post earlier. I genuinely do appreciate it.

You tend to confirm I think what I had already concluded although some of my interview is so bad that it looks like it might have been written without even speaking to me! I imagine that my assessor didn't feel able to ring to clarify things...

I share your view on the bathroom. Not sure what you think about "enjoys reading poetry on-line" which seems to have crept in from somewhere!

Thanks once again

(PS Don't feel the need to answer the last bit...)

Swanjack79

I feel for anyone who has to go through this charade, just had my second review, and I have somehow gone from full enhanced benefits to not being eligible for any, despite nothing changing, and in fact symptoms worsening.  I have CM and syringomyelia.  I had decompression surgery before my first assessment, and the person who came (a retired nurse) was very understanding and had some idea of the conditions involved. 

Roll on end of January, and after the person cancelled the initial meeting, the new assessor, came.  She introduced herself to my wife and flashed her card at her, but did not introduce herself to me or show me the ID personally, or even offer an idea of her background.  She was more interested in moaning about how difficult it was to park (whilst parking on a single yellow line) and arriving 10 minutes late as well.  When the interview went on she didn't have any idea of what the condition is and couldn't even pronounce syringomyelia.  After a 20 minute question answer, she perfomed a 30 second physical (of which when the report came back said I did things that were not actually performed in the physical).  Then she proceeded to moan about her new dog and how it was tearing up her house. 

Like I said, nothing has changed symptoms wise, and in the tasks I have been able to perform, with progressive worsening of limb strength and dexterity on top, coupled on with a continuous 5 year headache and exrtreme bouts of fatigue.  So was surprised to see the outcome.  Not shocked, as we are talking about something linked with the civil service, but annoyed.  I'm looking to appeal he decision, but am in a massive quandary with this as I am financially staring at major problems.  I am unable to do any physically strenuous work, and I can't see many people queing up to employ a 40 year old man with a physical disability that has been out of work for 5 years, and can't guarantee that he will be able to make it in every day.  I couldn't work for the DWP or Capita as an assesor either, as I actually exercise common sense and have a conscience.

It seems to me PIP, the assessment and assessors have completely turned their back on actual  physical disability and concentrated more on "mental health". 

Yadnad

ilovecats said:

Listening, typing and thinking of the next question isn’t easy. It’s actually very hard and takes a lot of practice. Most of the time it’s an honest mistake, especially when you want a simple answer to a simple question and you’re getting told xyz which isn’t relevant or helpful for PIP so you have to quickly decide what info to type and what to ignore. Sometimes people are evasive or you can tell they’ve been coached (which is understandable because they may need this money and be panicky that they won’t get it) and this makes it very hard and you really have to probe to get the info you need.

I can see where one problem might occur. We are told continually both by welfare rights and other posters on here that you should NEVER give a yes/no answer to anything that the assessor might ask.
You are advised to give chapter & verse of why you are making the claim and what happens when you carry out that particular activity, giving a couple of examples along the way.

I have always given yes/no answers to every closed question - that is all that is required of me. In doing that I know that I have failed to impress on the assessor what the impact is. The assessor only having the previous assessment report to compare with they would have no idea that the actual decisions at MR stage went from 0 points to enhanced for both elements.
Even if you refer to the current claim form it is highly likely that it isn't completed correctly in any way or form as many never are. As an example I have no real idea how to complete it, what information to give or where I can get up to date relevant evidence from - I have never had any professional advice. 
Yet you are suggesting that long winded answers should not be given but to keep it simple and say yes/no?

poppy123456

If the forms are filled out correctly and all the information is on there about how your conditions affect you then there shouldn't be many questions to ask during an assessment. The only issue is that a lot of people seem to think that they just fill out the forms with just a little information. The PIP review forms are most commonly known for just writing "no change"

Until my recent ESA review and my daughters PIP review i've always got help to fill out those forms and very little information has been added to each form that's been filled in. This time for both reviews i filled out the form myself. I had a very short ESA assessment but remained in the Support Group. I've yet to hear anything regarding my daughters claim because it took DWP 8 weeks to send the form to the health assessment providers. Both forms were filled out with as much information as possible and my daughters PIP form i added 2-3 examples of what happened the last time she attempted that activity for each descriptor that applies to her. I'll be very interested to know what the outcome will be.

Yadnad

poppy123456 said:

If the forms are filled out correctly and all the information is on there about how your conditions affect you then there shouldn't be many questions to ask during an assessment. The only issue is that a lot of people seem to think that they just fill out the forms with just a little information. The PIP review forms are most commonly known for just writing "no change"

Until my recent ESA review and my daughters PIP review i've always got help to fill out those forms and very little information has been added to each form that's been filled in. This time for both reviews i filled out the form myself. I had a very short ESA assessment but remained in the Support Group. I've yet to hear anything regarding my daughters claim because it took DWP 8 weeks to send the form to the health assessment providers. Both forms were filled out with as much information as possible and my daughters PIP form i added 2-3 examples of what happened the last time she attempted that activity for each descriptor that applies to her. I'll be very interested to know what the outcome will be.

Yes Poppy that is what I was pointing out - the form filling. As I have said before it should not matter what information is put on the form as the responsibility of the assessor is to establish that what has been written is the whole truth. Also like I have said before also, PIP was set up with the clear intention that the assessor was responsible for obtaining further evidence. 

I note that you had professionals initially to help in completing these forms, many like myself have never had that opportunity - that is the start of the 'us and them' - still to this day I do believe that the assessor is there to extract relevant information from the claimant in order to prepare the report and to guide the DWP more so than what you write on the claim forms.

Yes it will be very interesting to learn how you do get on and I really do wish you the best of luck.

poppy123456

ilovecats said:

I know a lot of people on here will stone me, but just having a condition is not enough. It's not DLA. Otherwise everyone would get PIP!I had time off for stress and had to take an anti depressant for a while. Doesn't mean I'm entitled to PIP, even though I stayed in bed all day for weeks at one point.

There isn't an endless pot of money. It should go to people who really truly need it. 

Rant over.

I completely agree with you here. I did say something like this a couple of days ago on another thread. Some people think that they should be awarded PIP because they have a condition or disability. That's not true, PIP is about how your conditions affect your ability to carry out daily activities based on the PIP descriptors. If a claimant doesn't meet the descriptors, there's no points recommended, therefore there's no award. Doesn't matter how much they try to fit into the descriptors and how many times they re-apply.

poppy123456

Yadnad said:

Yes Poppy that is what I was pointing out - the form filling. As I have said before it should not matter what information is put on the form as the responsibility of the assessor is to establish that what has been written is the whole truth. Also like I have said before also, PIP was set up with the clear intention that the assessor was responsible for obtaining further evidence. 

I note that you had professionals initially to help in completing these forms, many like myself have never had that opportunity - that is the start of the 'us and them' - still to this day I do believe that the assessor is there to extract relevant information from the claimant in order to prepare the report and to guide the DWP more so than what you write on the claim forms.

Yes it will be very interesting to learn how you do get on and I really do wish you the best of luck.

It matters a lot what information you put on the forms because if you don't put it down how are they supposed to know how your conditions affect you? There's not enough time at a face to face assessment to ask every single question, i'm sure. If they asked everything then the backlogs would be even bigger than they already are. To my knowledge and i've claimed PIP since it first came out, it's never been their responsibility to ask anyone for evidence. It's the claimant responsibility to prove they qualify, not theirs.

With the way each forms were filled out, i wouldn't call the professionals. I wasn't at all surprised that my daughter needed the face to face assessment last time either. If she needs one this time i'm going to be asking what further information they could possibly want. Everything i said in the form is backed up with medical evidence.

Thanks for the good luck wishes.

Yadnad

ilovecats said:

The assessors shouldn't really be asking yes/no questions, it's actually discouraged in training. Occasionally it has to be done but should be followed up with a why, or how question.They get told off for asking closed or leading questions. 

The question, 'Tell me how you put your socks on' will normally illicit something like the below response:

"Well I can't put them on myself because my back hurts, its been going on since, ooh now, now when was it? Maybe 10 years ago? That arthritis is a killer. I've struggled since it started and those bloody painkillers are no good, my wife will do it for me but sometimes I have to wait ages because it takes her forever to do her makeup and then sometimes she doesn't like the pair I've chosen so she will go downstairs and get different ones.". 

The assessor has to wade through all that information to find the factual reasons why and then type them down, all while trying not to be rude and cut the claimant off mid sentence. It's a fine line. 

A response such as, "I can't do it because my back hurts when I bend down so my wife helps me" is enough. If they want more information they will ask. 

With regards to form filling out, its amazing how many people put little effort into the form. Often they will just write "I can't do this" or "I struggle". Thats nothing to go on!

Also, there was nothing more infuriating that something with a single condition, often depression, claiming they can't read or physically talk and that they can't walk more than 200m. People try so hard to get the descriptors to fit them and it just won't work.

Assessors aren't stupid. We can tell when someone has severe depression to the point they stay in bed all day unless they are prompted to get up. They are normally the ones that are taking a 3rd line antidepressant, with a support worker and psychiatrist involvement. We can also tell when someone had mild depression but is chancing it with a PIP application. "I can't walk because I lack motivation". They are normally just under their GP and taking a low dose of a 1st line anti depressant with no specialist involvement, no counselling etc. It's actually really annoying and insulting to people with severe mental health conditions. 

They can also tell if you have received coaching or advice because often there will be buzzword galore thrown out. No-ones pattern of speech normally would make them say 'I can't wash my feet on the majority of days' etc

I know a lot of people on here will stone me, but just having a condition is not enough. It's not DLA. Otherwise everyone would get PIP!I had time off for stress and had to take an anti depressant for a while. Doesn't mean I'm entitled to PIP, even though I stayed in bed all day for weeks at one point.

There isn't an endless pot of money. It should go to people who really truly need it. 

Rant over.

Your involvement is like a huge dose of fresh air and for one I am extremely grateful for the time you are spending on this site.. 
What I can say is that I have had 3 face to face assessments 2013, 2015 and 2017. All resulted in 0 points although the first 2 were changed at MR stage to Enhanced Care & Mobility. The 3rd I gave up with as at the age of 70 I didn't fancy having re-assessments every other year for the rest of my life!
In all 3 assessments the majority of questions were closed - 'would you agree', 'you mention that you can walk no more than 15 metres, if the building you were in was on fire and the nearest fire escape door was 60 metres away could you walk that distance', you claim that you have two NHS hearing aids because you say you are deaf, yet you only have one in at the moment, can you still hear me', 'did the NHS provide the walking stick you are using', 'if the power to your electric bath chair failed to raise you would you still be sitting in the cold water until someone came to help you',  ……

I think, and yes I am guilty also, that most people don't bother with the form filling side for many reasons - it is too long and complicated, they have no one to help them fill it out, they don't understand what they are to put on the form, along with the belief that the assessor is supposed to extract all of the relevant information from the claimant at the assessment (it's the easy option I suppose).
 
Unfortunately for some claimants, and despite how debilitating a condition is, they end up back at the GP as there is nothing more that can be done for them - my typical situation is that I went off the radar of the CMHT purposely as I didn't see the good in what the consultants psychiatrist was doing. Getting back into the 'service' is now almost impossible - it doesn't mean to say that I am not having difficulties in coping. 
I will be honest that after the 1st assessment when I tried to explain on the form all about the impact the mental health problems cause, I was faced with 14 or so reasons why I can't have any mental health problems - didn't rock in the chair etc. For the 2nd and 3rd assessments I did not raise any mental health issues as it was clear from the 1st assessment that I was not going to be believed.   

poppy123456

I have to completely agree with yadnad here. @ilovecats your help and advice is very much appreciated here. Thanks from me too.

haveacigar

ilovecats said:

@Yadnad

Thanks for saying that. I have lurked for a long time but never posted for fear of getting abuse for having been an assessor.

. @ilovecats
 It really is enlightening to read your posts and the different perspective they offer. I wish I could find more insight from ex or indeed current assessors online.
 Many thanks