Employment and Support Allowance (ESA)
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What are the Health and Safety implications of being classed as fit for work from ESA/PiP

Here is a though, people who have been classed as fit for work by the DWP after a reassessment appointment could be able to challenge the decision under the grounds of Health and Safety implications as there are serious issues for every person with any type of disability with regards to Health and Safety at work 

Replies

  • clarkjohnsonclarkjohnson Member Posts: 210 Pioneering
    Thanks for that friend I'm a 63 year old cancer survivor worked over 40 years never had an health problem until late 2017 and they said I could do some sort of work . I'm not the same person mentally or physically unfortunately and I'll tell any future employers that I mean who wants to employ a clapped out 63 year old man who's on the countdown to retirement it's all about money saving they couldn't give a toss about people s health . Well they can kiss my **** . Tc friend 👍
  • michfinchmichfinch Member Posts: 173 Pioneering
    Yes, I’ve often thought of this question too. As an ex employer if I employed someone with a Disability mentally or physically, would I have to take out extra insurance? Good point, anyway, will follow it through.
  • BenistmonkBenistmonk Member Posts: 343 Pioneering
    Good point, say your driving licence had been revoked on health grounds, could you get it back if you were found fit for work by a HCP.  


  • CockneyRebelCockneyRebel Member Posts: 5,258 Disability Gamechanger
    You can be found fit for work but they do not specify what type of work you may be able to carry out. It does not mean that you are fit to carry out your chosen proffesion. PIP is not an out of work benefit and many people with PIP awards work full or part time
    Be all you can be, make  every day count. Namaste
  • BenistmonkBenistmonk Member Posts: 343 Pioneering
    @CockneyRebel No, but the Jobcentre will specify what it means to be found fit for work, they will tell you that you have to apply every job there is, and if you tell the JC you can't do a specific job, they will tell you to sod off and claim ESA. 

    The DWP triangle of crap.
  • michfinchmichfinch Member Posts: 173 Pioneering
    I’ve i’ve an email thread with Operations Office at dwp. I have asked if a Specialist and my Dr deem me unfit to drive and work could their Healthcare professional overrule the decision of the Dr, the Specialist and the DVLA and allow me to drive? Will wait on an answer..... 
  • debsidoodebsidoo Member Posts: 327 Pioneering
    @Benistmonk
    That isn’t strictly correct.You can get Jobseekers with limitations if you have a recognised condition or disability.It does not declare you unfit for work but in these situations you are able to refuse certain jobs.
    eg a partially sighted person would not be asked to take on a driving job if their sight was impaired to the point they were unsafe on the roads even if declared fit by DWP as this would contravene the road safety act.This was one example of many.
         Debsidoo.x
           
  • BenistmonkBenistmonk Member Posts: 343 Pioneering
    @michfinch That should be interesting, I have no doubt they will make some excuse as to why you can't use a HCP report to get your licence back, probably because they are not qualified to make such a call. So you can use that against them in appeal. HCP report not worth the paper it is written on for x reasons.
  • michfinchmichfinch Member Posts: 173 Pioneering
    Their Reports aren’t worth the paper they are written on especially for Epilepsy. I also think because I’m in a roll out Universal Credit area they’re clutching at straws not being able to give a definitive answer. I’m still re-appealing ESA and PIP. My Son, who came with me yesterday to my UC meeting with my Job Coach (who, prompts me for my 28 day Fit Note 😂) is a very level-headed, logical person. Even he was nearly exploding with frustration after asking very pertinent, logical questions to be met by “computer says No” type answers from my Work Coach who can switch off and on the need to look for work button.... Yes, looking forward to Monday and Universal Credit Assessment with logical Son taking me! 
  • BenistmonkBenistmonk Member Posts: 343 Pioneering
    debsidoo said:
    @Benistmonk
    That isn’t strictly correct.You can get Jobseekers with limitations if you have a recognised condition or disability.It does not declare you unfit for work but in these situations you are able to refuse certain jobs.
    eg a partially sighted person would not be asked to take on a driving job if their sight was impaired to the point they were unsafe on the roads even if declared fit by DWP as this would contravene the road safety act.This was one example of many.
         Debsidoo.x
           

    What is this magical benefit called and how do you qualify for it?
  • michfinchmichfinch Member Posts: 173 Pioneering
    Briefly: asked my Work Coach via message today “who would be at fault if I have an accident at work through Epilepsy?”
    1. DWP for ignoring my FIT NOTES and my Specialist Reports?
    2. The Nurse Practitioner who overruled my Dr, Specialist (and even the DVLA who recognise I’m a danger to other people) and said I didn’t score enough points so I’m fit for work.
    3. The Company who employ me and don’t have adequate insurance to protect myself and my co workers from my Disability - especially when I fall to the floor, thrash out and someone may get hurt trying to restrain me...
    Interesting, don’t you think?
  • Dotty123Dotty123 Member Posts: 492 Pioneering
    I can’t use my hands fingers so what do they class I can work safely 
  • BenistmonkBenistmonk Member Posts: 343 Pioneering
    I see there is no reply to my question. :o

    Obviously the DWP can't tell someone who is practically blind to apply for a driving job, they wouldn't have a driving licence to begin with, so not a good example.

    I still maintain that the DWP will tell you to apply for all available jobs once you have been assessed as fit for work, there is no inbetween with them, you either qualify for ESA or you don't.
  • BenistmonkBenistmonk Member Posts: 343 Pioneering
    Dotty123 said:
    I can’t use my hands fingers so what do they class I can work safely 

    They will probably say you could be a concert pianist, as long as you can hit the keys, that's all that matters to the DWP.  :p
  • clarkjohnsonclarkjohnson Member Posts: 210 Pioneering
    Well I was in the choir at school used to sing Shenandoah to the Darby and Joan but half of um fell asleep I'll have a word with Tom Jones it's not unusual 
  • debsidoodebsidoo Member Posts: 327 Pioneering
    @Benistmonk
    The benefit I am referring to is as I said Jobseekers with restrictions.The way it was explained to me at the jobcentre when I had an eight month period on it in 2014 was that although I was found fit for work they understood from my medical records that due to spinal damage I would be exempt from applying for certain types of work.
    When signed up you are not forced to apply for any and every job on offer just those that are deemed within your capabilities.You can also have a designated disability work adviser to help you negotiate this minefield.
            Debsidoo.x

  • babybellebabybelle Member Posts: 3 Listener
    I've just lost my esa. I was told at my wca by an alleged hcp that arthritis is not recognised illness now. 
  • BenistmonkBenistmonk Member Posts: 343 Pioneering
    debsidoo said:

    The benefit I am referring to is as I said Jobseekers with restrictions.The way it was explained to me at the jobcentre when I had an eight month period on it in 2014 was that although I was found fit for work they understood from my medical records that due to spinal damage I would be exempt from applying for certain types of work.
    When signed up you are not forced to apply for any and every job on offer just those that are deemed within your capabilities.You can also have a designated disability work adviser to help you negotiate this minefield.
            Debsidoo.x



    There is no such benefit as Jobseekers with restrictions, a quick search on google will confirm that. There is or was Jobseekers Allowance which is a benefit for people who are fit for work.


  • BenistmonkBenistmonk Member Posts: 343 Pioneering
    babybelle said:
    I've just lost my esa. I was told at my wca by an alleged hcp that arthritis is not recognised illness now. 

    Have a look at this, give them a ring, they say people with arthritis are entitled to ESA.

    https://www.arthritiscare.org.uk/assets/000/001/874/Factsheet4_esa_(web)_original.pdf?1509979726
  • michfinchmichfinch Member Posts: 173 Pioneering
    My Work Coach did switch off the need to find work button (so he said). Anyway I don’t intend to sit back and be a statistic. It’s not in my nature. I’m just curious to learn about all the legal implications for the DWP by pushing me into work when highly trained Medical Professionals put in writing that I am not.
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger



    There is no such benefit as Jobseekers with restrictions, a quick search on google will confirm that. There is or was Jobseekers Allowance which is a benefit for people who are fit for work.


    Yes there is. If you have a disability and you're looking for work then your work coach can be very understanding and take your medical conditions into consideration. @debsidoo is correct, you can have a disability work adviser. Not being able to do certain jobs because of a disability doesn't mean you're not fit for work. There's people that want to work but can only do certain jobs.
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • michfinchmichfinch Member Posts: 173 Pioneering
  • debsidoodebsidoo Member Posts: 327 Pioneering
    Thanks @poppy123456
    i was just about to respond to op.
    Debsidoo.x

  • michfinchmichfinch Member Posts: 173 Pioneering
    As as I say just interested to learn in legal terms why the Govt Health Adviser can by a stroke of the pen overrule my Specialist, my Dr and my Psycologist who have all written to say I am not fit for work of any kind at the moment.
  • BenistmonkBenistmonk Member Posts: 343 Pioneering


    Yes there is. If you have a disability and you're looking for work then your work coach can be very understanding and take your medical conditions into consideration. @debsidoo is correct, you can have a disability work adviser. Not being able to do certain jobs because of a disability doesn't mean you're not fit for work. There's people that want to work but can only do certain jobs.


    desiboo is simply trying to twist the point I was making which was about able bodied people with illness forced to undertake job search requirements, even though they have been signed off work by their GP, there is no understanding for people in that category. 

    Obviously people with permanent disability such as wheelchair users, the blind, people with undeveloped limbs, people in that category will not be subjected to the same job search regime as able bodied people, that is just common sense. 





  • michfinchmichfinch Member Posts: 173 Pioneering
    Able bodied, just not able minded 100% of the time! Anyway, I’m still trying to find out what Health and Safety Laws the DWP are breaking ignoring my Specialist, Dr’s and the Govt funded Momentum Skills Psychologist who have all put in writing I am not fit for work. I’ll be working on that one going forward.
  • Pzkpfwv1dPzkpfwv1d Member Posts: 10 Listener
    The first principle of Health and Safety is having a duty of care for yourself and those around you and forcing someone to apply for a job when there is a significantly higher chance that that person of someone near them might suffer an incident because of the fact that the person has impaired functions of some degree 
  • BenistmonkBenistmonk Member Posts: 343 Pioneering
    This is what I mean by able bodied people, people like Michfinch who is clearly not fit for work and has the medical evidence to back it up, being hounded by the DWP simply because they look healthy. 

    I think health and safety law only applies to employees and employers, to find out what laws the DWP could be breaking in relation to yourself, I think you need to have a look at the human rights act. 
  • michfinchmichfinch Member Posts: 173 Pioneering
    I’m looking at everything. Like many Epileptics my brain goes 24/7 so I may as well put it to some use. 
  • Pzkpfwv1dPzkpfwv1d Member Posts: 10 Listener
    I think you will find that this comes under quality of life regarding human rights 
  • Dotty123Dotty123 Member Posts: 492 Pioneering
    I got took off esa I can’t use my fingers my hands are bent over will I be entitled to health safety rules
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    Health and safety rules only apply in a work place.
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • Pzkpfwv1dPzkpfwv1d Member Posts: 10 Listener
    Health and Safety Rules actually apply in public and private spaces wherever a workplace impinges upon and area open to the general public, therefore, they apply 
  • michfinchmichfinch Member Posts: 173 Pioneering
    Thanks, I know if I went back to my previous role I wouldn’t be allowed in the cutting or sewing areas and as my previous role was sales, had I been able to still drive (which I can’t) going into strange buildings and offices would therefore impinge on me carrying out that role.
  • son2son2 Member Posts: 4 Listener
       Dwp.think they know everything
  • axwy62axwy62 Member Posts: 140 Pioneering
    To add a slightly lighter note, a close friend of mine was found fit for work in the early days of ESA, and sent to play with the children running the Work Programme. They found him some 'work experience' which he was totally unable to convince them was unsuitable so being a stroppy so and so, he decided he'd turn up when instructed and see what the prospective employer thought. 
    Funnily enough, the employer took one look at my friend and immediately got on the phone to the Work Programme folk and gave them a rocket for wasting everyone's time. The employer was a scaffolding firm, amongst other issues, the friend only has one leg, which makes getting up ladders somewhat complicated.
    The Work Programme folks never suggested a work experience placement for him again, and not long after he won his appeal anyway. He's now retired and no longer on the WCA merry-go-round, but still dining out on that story.
  • BenistmonkBenistmonk Member Posts: 343 Pioneering
    I had a right laugh with them when they sent me on a course run by the Shaw Trust which is a charity, I shut down the Shaw Trust head office. My complaint was, what the hell is a charity doing trying to force people like me into work when I have been signed off by my GP as not fit for work. And then threatening to sanction me for refusing to look for work by reporting me to the DWP. 

    I learned later from my adviser at the JC, who was incandescent with rage, that the staff at Shaw Trust HO were volunteers, and when they heard my complaint, they all walked out. I was warned never to contact them again. I can't print my reply to that on here, but you can guess it was not polite. 

    I also reported them to the charities commission for causing harm to people who are ill. Funny thing is, since that debacle, even though I am in WRAG, I have not been asked to attend any more courses.  :D
  • michfinchmichfinch Member Posts: 173 Pioneering
    I’ll report after my Work Capability Assessment tomorrow! I’m actually looking forward to picking them to pieces :-) 
  • BenistmonkBenistmonk Member Posts: 343 Pioneering
    michfinch said:
    I’ll report after my Work Capability Assessment tomorrow! I’m actually looking forward to picking them to pieces :-) 

    I think it takes a few weeks before you will know the outcome, the HCP will do a report which goes to the DWP, then when they have done reading it, they will post it on to you.

    If the HCP is a nurse, you can ask to be assessed by a doctor, in fact I would insist on it. A doctor is more responsible than a nurse, a doctor is not going to risk losing his licence by writing dodgy reports.

    Good luck.
  • michfinchmichfinch Member Posts: 173 Pioneering
    OK I will ring first thing and ask. Good advice. Thank you.
  • BenistmonkBenistmonk Member Posts: 343 Pioneering
    You will still have to go to the assessment at the appointed time so whatever you do, do not miss it. When you get to the assessment centre, if you are seen by a HCP who is a nurse or physio, say no thanks, I want to be assessed by a doctor. If there isn't a doctor on duty on the day, they will have to make a new appointment for you.  

    They did this with me, then conned me into being assessed by a physio when I went back a second time. It was my own fault, I should have made them make me another appointment to be seen by a doctor. I am sure I would still be on ESA if I did that. So don't let them fob you off like they did with me, they have to provide a doctor to assess you.  
  • michfinchmichfinch Member Posts: 173 Pioneering
    I’ve been treated very shabbily because of my worsening Epilepsy and memory. I should be on a higher rate of UC because I’m disabled and supply monthly Fit Notes.
    My Work Coach will open his mail tomorrow to a torrent of emails from me.... I’m fuming and that causes me to have Fits.
  • BenistmonkBenistmonk Member Posts: 343 Pioneering
    Hopefully it will all go well for you, but I would insist on being seen by a doctor. They will try to avoid this like they did with me, I gave in because I couldn't be bothered going back to the assessment centre for a third time, I wish now I had told them to make me another appointment, i should have kept doing that until I was seen by a doctor.  
    The upside is, you will still be on ESA while this is going on, the downside is having to attend the assessment centre every 2 or 3 weeks until you are finally seen by a doctor.
      

  • michfinchmichfinch Member Posts: 173 Pioneering
    Morning, I’ve asked for a Dr. The young girl asked 
    me what my condition is so I said Epilepsy.... computer said no, so I added Memory Loss and Depression and someone is now going to ring me back and I don’t have to go today. I’ve put all the notes on my on-line Journal. My poor Work Coach is going to open up to War and Peace this morning!
  • BenistmonkBenistmonk Member Posts: 343 Pioneering
    Well done, see what I mean about them trying to stop you from being assessed by a doctor, there is only one reason why they would do that, they are trying to fail as many people as they can to keep the DWP happy. They will probably do the same thing again, so don't let them talk you into being assessed by a nurse. As you have asked to be assessed by a doctor, according to the DWP, they have to agree to it.
  • Dotty123Dotty123 Member Posts: 492 Pioneering
    Wish I’d new that at my assessment 
  • BenistmonkBenistmonk Member Posts: 343 Pioneering
    Dotty123 said:
    Wish I’d new that at my assessment 

    I only found out about it when I got the DMs response to my appeal, even though I specifically asked for a doctor, while they have doctors at the assessment centre, the DM made out it was simply luck of the draw and there was nothing underhand about the way my assessment was done. 
  • michfinchmichfinch Member Posts: 173 Pioneering
    I’m listening to all you guys and what you’ve gone through/are going through. If you go on the MIND website, Epilepsy is not down as a Disability, however, under the Equality Act it is. 
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