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example from a Statement of Reasons

MikeyMooMikeyMoo Member Posts: 2 Listener
edited April 2019 in PIP, DLA and AA
Does anyone have an example from a Statement of Reasons from the Lower Tier Tribunal, whereby they state you will not be considered to reapply for PIP, after they refused your claim for PIP?

Replies

  • CockneyRebelCockneyRebel Member Posts: 5,257 Disability Gamechanger
    Hi @MikeyMoo and welcome

    Sorry, I have never come across this, it sounds a bit drastic. Hopefully one of our more knowledgeable members may have an answer for you
    Be all you can be, make  every day count. Namaste
  • BenefitsTrainingCoBenefitsTrainingCo Member Posts: 2,692 Pioneering
    Hi @MikeyMoo I've seen a lot of statements of reasons over many years.  I have never seen one which says claimants cannot re-apply.  I have tried to think of when that might be, but the only definite situation of no PIP entitlement relates to age, and to be honest, if an appeal request was made which clearly had no merit I would expect it to be struck out on request rather than actually going to a hearing.  Sorry not to be of more help. Sarah
    The Benefits Training Co:
    Paul Bradley
    Michael Chambers
    Will Hadwen
    Sarah Hayle
    Maria Solomon
    David Stickland
  • twonkertwonker Posts: 617 Member
    edited April 2019
    Maybe the Tribunal were trying to be helpful and practical.
    The weakness of the claim they had before them was unlikely ever to form the basis of a PIP award. 
    They are suggesting that you would be wasting your time, that of the DWP, the assessor and the tribunal in making another claim identical to the one originally made?
    A PIP award is not going to be happening anytime soon.
  • CockneyRebelCockneyRebel Member Posts: 5,257 Disability Gamechanger
    Hi Mikey

    Stating the obvious, I presume that you did not get an award. We are not here to judge, would you like to tell us a bit about the reason for your claim ?

    It might be a good idea, if you are planning on making a new application, to have a look at the descriptors and take the self test. This will give you an idea where you fit with the PIP system


    Be all you can be, make  every day count. Namaste
  • wilkowilko Member Posts: 2,300 Disability Gamechanger
    The the claimant not giving, telling the whole story like so many that we are left to assume the whys and where fore's of the claimants perusing their claim. Had the poster given all the relevant details of their case then community members can advise accordingly  alas so many do not present all the facts and information to enable a correct and helpful reply.
  • MikeyMooMikeyMoo Member Posts: 2 Listener
    Hi All, sorry if I was a bit vague, it's my first visit.
    I was told by CAB, after showing them the Statement of Reasons that, in their opinion the statement said I could not re-apply. After I investigated the CAB apologised to me as they got their wires crossed.
    I know I cannot challenge the judge on points of law, but am concerned about the language he used in his summation IE.
    Is conveying someone is ‘noticeably overweight’ likely to cause that person or some other person serious harm? 
    Is deciding I am getting heavier an assumption he should not be using. After a diagnoses of Type 2 Diabetes, I have actually lost 1/2 a stone!
    Is conveying someone who in the Judge’s opinion that “their claims are grossly exaggerated” not harmful? 
    I volunteer in the CP area and through my contacts there, I know this judge is very opinionated about claimants, but such hateful language, especially as my psychotherapist explains I have deep seated body image issues.

    Many thanks for taking the time to respond, very much appreciated.

    Mikeymoo
  • bracabraca Posts: 85 Member
    @ilovecats in an earlier comment on another post you disputed this figure of 70%+ appeals are in favour of appellant and think you mentioned o.4% ? My own opinion is that you are on this forum to try and improve the image of either IAS or Capita and to get into the minds of vulnerable people who then get more confused about their entitlement to benefits.
  • bracabraca Posts: 85 Member
    @ilovecats you are advising vulnerable people that they must comply with a flawed drop down box functional assessment of which assessors are highly trained to IAS/CAPITA degree level that they have to complete within 4 weeks so that type of assessment might be ok for some but certainly not for those who have complex issues. you mentioned in a previous post that the Government cant give everyone money who claims PIP. yet you had no qualms about taking highly inflated wages from assessment providers who struggle to take on and retain staff and could not give a toss about peoples disabilities...you say as an ex assessor you give out advice on this forum but take a step back and you will see that you are still brainwashed by them...>:)
  • FitznspatzFitznspatz Member Posts: 45 Courageous
    If an organisation is struggling “to take on and retain staff” then logic and market forces tell us it is not paying “highly inflated wages”. I would also question the blanket assertion that assessors do not give a toss about people’s disabilities. 

    Personally I find ilovecats’ posts to be among the most helpful on this forum.
  • CockneyRebelCockneyRebel Member Posts: 5,257 Disability Gamechanger

    There should be no need for you to feel that you have to defend yourself. Your insight to the other side of the assessment process is invaluable. It is far to easy for a claimant to adopt the " Woe is me " attitude, " I am ill so I should get paid ".
    No one is saying that the system is perfect, certainly not you but without trying to see both sides the establishment and its employees are demonised which does not help anyone move forward 

    Be all you can be, make  every day count. Namaste
  • twonkertwonker Posts: 617 Member
    braca said:
    @ilovecats you are advising vulnerable people that they must comply with a flawed drop down box functional assessment of which assessors are highly trained to IAS/CAPITA degree level that they have to complete within 4 weeks so that type of assessment might be ok for some but certainly not for those who have complex issues. you mentioned in a previous post that the Government cant give everyone money who claims PIP. yet you had no qualms about taking highly inflated wages from assessment providers who struggle to take on and retain staff and could not give a toss about peoples disabilities...you say as an ex assessor you give out advice on this forum but take a step back and you will see that you are still brainwashed by them...>:)
    The only person on this thread that is fixated on hate is you. Why are you spouting such rubbish on a forum that is there to help people? Nothing in your posts could conceivably be said to be help and advice.
    Yes you have your warped opinion but please don't try to force it on us.
  • bracabraca Posts: 85 Member
    Twanker thank you for the kind words in support of my opinion and can only apologise for coming across as forceful, can you please advise on my recent PIP MR that one of the helpline people told me had been returned to IAS to be looked at by another assessor before being returned to Case manager to make decision, was also advised to ask for PA5 report ? can you advise if I am on right track despite you and others on forum giving myself such character assassination that well and truly hurts and not what one would expect on a forum like Scope who offer great advice. 
  • twonkertwonker Posts: 617 Member
    You have asked the DWP to have another look by a different decision maker of your PIP decision. It is entirely possible that this new decision maker has noticed something as regards the evidence/assessor's report that requires further advice on. Once the new decision maker receives this information he should be able to give his/her view on the original decision, beit keep it the same. reduce it or increase it. 
  • CockneyRebelCockneyRebel Member Posts: 5,257 Disability Gamechanger
    ilovecats said:
    Extra info, the person who has been asked to look at the information again will not have any contact with the original assessor. They make their own decision based on all the information submitted by the claimant and what the assessment report says. If they feel the report poo it will be sent back for a rework or the claimant will be asked to come back in.
    Sorry but that did make me laugh
    Be all you can be, make  every day count. Namaste
  • CockneyRebelCockneyRebel Member Posts: 5,257 Disability Gamechanger
    LOL
    Be all you can be, make  every day count. Namaste
  • twonkertwonker Posts: 617 Member
    ilovecats said:
    Extra info, the person who has been asked to look at the information again will not have any contact with the original assessor. They make their own decision based on all the information submitted by the claimant and what the assessment report says. If they feel the report poo it will be sent back for a rework or the claimant will be asked to come back in.
    Surely they cannot put that onto the claimant. If the assessor makes a complete mess of the assessment why should it be the fault of the claimant? Having to go through another assessment because of someone's incompetence is not really how this should work. Do  the DWP not realise how much it takes out of the claimant to even attend the first one?
  • CockneyRebelCockneyRebel Member Posts: 5,257 Disability Gamechanger
    If an assessment is not fit for purpose, then how can a claimant be assessed at the correct rate without a further assessment ? No, it should not happen. Assessors are human and mistakes will be made but if there is insufficient information on the report then I see no other option. Better the stress of another assessment than a failure
    Be all you can be, make  every day count. Namaste
  • twonkertwonker Posts: 617 Member
    If an assessment is not fit for purpose, then how can a claimant be assessed at the correct rate without a further assessment ? No, it should not happen. Assessors are human and mistakes will be made but if there is insufficient information on the report then I see no other option. Better the stress of another assessment than a failure
    Does there really have to be another face to face assessment?
    Given that none of this is the fault of the claimant could not the assessing company and the DWP work together to see what information was gathered at the assessment that is not in dispute, consider what other evidence may be available, claim form, written evidence, and maybe they could contact the respective medical/social contact that the claimant agreed to the claim form? What about a paper based report?
    Having done all of that then yes the ultimate scenario is that another assessment is carried out.

    I do suspect however that the assessor and the DWP don't want to put that amount of extra work in as it is much easier to put the responsibility onto the claimant to have to go through another assessment.
  • twonkertwonker Posts: 617 Member
    edited April 2019
    ilovecats said:
    twonker said:
    If an assessment is not fit for purpose, then how can a claimant be assessed at the correct rate without a further assessment ? No, it should not happen. Assessors are human and mistakes will be made but if there is insufficient information on the report then I see no other option. Better the stress of another assessment than a failure
    Does there really have to be another face to face assessment?
    Given that none of this is the fault of the claimant could not the assessing company and the DWP work together to see what information was gathered at the assessment that is not in dispute, consider what other evidence may be available, claim form, written evidence, and maybe they could contact the respective medical/social contact that the claimant agreed to the claim form? What about a paper based report?
    Having done all of that then yes the ultimate scenario is that another assessment is carried out.

    I do suspect however that the assessor and the DWP don't want to put that amount of extra work in as it is much easier to put the responsibility onto the claimant to have to go through another assessment.
    It is not the fault of the claimant, you are right. 

    A paper based report can only be completed if a enough evidence has been sent to the DWP in the first place. Every claim is reviewed to see if could potentially be a paper based review however not many can be because the information given is normally poor or very contradictory. Hence the need for a face to face. 

    Even if a PBR is attempted, normally due to the DWP time restrictions, if the GP or any medical contact that the claimant has put down, has not agreed to provide information within (3 days i think) then it will go to F2F.

    A second face to face will only occur if not enough information was gathered the first time around. If the initial assessment was poor, it is better to get the person in again and a better quality of information gathered. 
    Sorry and no disrespect intended but no time limit of that nature should be enforced. As I have said it is up to both the DWP and the assessor to do everything within their power with no stone left unturned and without unreasonable time limit, to rectify the 'error'.  I am sure that the claimant would want that to happen and would not be bothered if it took another 3/4 weeks to sort out. Better that than face another gruelling face to face assessment.
  • CockneyRebelCockneyRebel Member Posts: 5,257 Disability Gamechanger
    Not all assessment are gruelling, not pleasant I grant you but shouldn't the focus be on collecting the best information so that the claimant is given the correct award first time ? A new assessment should at least have a starting point from the original. Even with the time limits removed, many GP's can still only attest to medical condition and not functional ability which is the purpose of the assessment in the first place
    Be all you can be, make  every day count. Namaste
  • djbantiquesdjbantiques Member Posts: 43 Connected
    ilovecats said:
    twonker said:
    ilovecats said:
    twonker said:
    If an assessment is not fit for purpose, then how can a claimant be assessed at the correct rate without a further assessment ? No, it should not happen. Assessors are human and mistakes will be made but if there is insufficient information on the report then I see no other option. Better the stress of another assessment than a failure
    Does there really have to be another face to face assessment?
    Given that none of this is the fault of the claimant could not the assessing company and the DWP work together to see what information was gathered at the assessment that is not in dispute, consider what other evidence may be available, claim form, written evidence, and maybe they could contact the respective medical/social contact that the claimant agreed to the claim form? What about a paper based report?
    Having done all of that then yes the ultimate scenario is that another assessment is carried out.

    I do suspect however that the assessor and the DWP don't want to put that amount of extra work in as it is much easier to put the responsibility onto the claimant to have to go through another assessment.
    It is not the fault of the claimant, you are right. 

    A paper based report can only be completed if a enough evidence has been sent to the DWP in the first place. Every claim is reviewed to see if could potentially be a paper based review however not many can be because the information given is normally poor or very contradictory. Hence the need for a face to face. 

    Even if a PBR is attempted, normally due to the DWP time restrictions, if the GP or any medical contact that the claimant has put down, has not agreed to provide information within (3 days i think) then it will go to F2F.

    A second face to face will only occur if not enough information was gathered the first time around. If the initial assessment was poor, it is better to get the person in again and a better quality of information gathered. 
    Sorry and no disrespect intended but no time limit of that nature should be enforced. As I have said it is up to both the DWP and the assessor to do everything within their power with no stone left unturned and without unreasonable time limit, to rectify the 'error'.  I am sure that the claimant would want that to happen and would not be bothered if it took another 3/4 weeks to sort out. Better that than face another gruelling face to face assessment.
    Unfortunately as much as people would like PBR’s, even if more time was allowed, most claimants do not send enough information in. Also, most GP’s even when they do return the requested information, will normally just list the conditions and current meds and leave the functional history section blank, OR will just not fill it out at all and send it back blank!
    So the failures for claimants to not get the reward they deserve is down to themselves and their GPs not providing enough information.
  • justg72justg72 Member Posts: 173 Pioneering
    Hi Mikeymoo 
    Hi to all who are waiting for a tribunals you may find this helpful.
    I have come across a fantastic site in regards to P.I.P. thanks to a former tribunal judge called Sir Henry Brooke.
     The website is www.pipinfo.net
    If you go onto the website you will  have different boxes you can click on. You can also look at a variety of tribunal cases and examples of statement of reasons, of different disabilities and conditions in relation to P.I.P. tribunals. It also tells you to, I have copied and pasted this: choose from the options above for details of regulations and case law relating to personal independence payment. You can search by activity, issue or health condition to find out more about the legal framework and how the Upper Tribunal has interpreted the law.
    We hope that pipinfo will help advisers in assisting people to make a new claim for personal independence payment, and in challenging decisions to refuse, or award a lower rate of, the benefit.
    Hope this helps all who are going to a tribunal for P.I.P. I found this invaluable.
    Good luck 

  • twonkertwonker Posts: 617 Member
    Some are, some aren't. It's a lottery.
    It doesn't really matter how well you fill the form in or what the quality of the evidence is. If the assessor makes a c**** up then that's the problem.
    As for expecting the assessor to start at a midway point or just cover the offending section, do you really expect that to happen? I don't. It would be human nature in that if they are being paid to carry out an assessment that is what they would do, start from scratch.
    My worry would be that the first assessment went well with an assessor that listened but still got it wrong. Heaven help if you had one of those for the second assessment that wanted to run the assessment their way, not giving you the time to answer fully before they have moved on to the next question.
     
  • FitznspatzFitznspatz Member Posts: 45 Courageous
    @justg72, what a fantastic resource. Hats off to you for bringing it to people’s attention.
  • justg72justg72 Member Posts: 173 Pioneering
    @justg72, what a fantastic resource. Hats off to you for bringing it to people’s attention.
    Hi Fitzspatz
    Have you had a look at it?
    I wish I could help more as this resource is the one of the best i have seen. Would scope advertise this on their site as I think more people need to know about this. Also the judge I have mentioned above is appalled by how the DWP and assessors treat vulnerable  disabled people and he agrees that the PIP is not fit for purpose. He is fed up with all the injustice that it causes people. He is always getting involved with Parliament and the MP'S and fights for the disabled after spending many years as a tribunal judge. Thanks to him I come across the website. I think all who are fighting the system especially P.I.P. this is the best website I have come across as it shows you genuine cases of peoples tribunals and the statement of reasons and the case law.
    Good Luck to all who are waiting on their tribunals.

  • FitznspatzFitznspatz Member Posts: 45 Courageous
    Yes, I looked at the site and was very impressed. It was written with clarity and precision, completely devoid of legalese. 

    Very fortunately my my wife was successful with her PIP claim and did not have to recourse to a Mandatory Reconsideration or a Tribunal but, had she needed to, the judge’s guidance would have been invaluable.

    I am a new user on this forum and do not fully understand its finer points but I hope one of the moderators can somehow highlight the link and give it prominence.
  • twonkertwonker Posts: 617 Member
    ilovecats said:
    twonker said:
    Some are, some aren't. It's a lottery.
    It doesn't really matter how well you fill the form in or what the quality of the evidence is. If the assessor makes a c**** up then that's the problem.
    As for expecting the assessor to start at a midway point or just cover the offending section, do you really expect that to happen? I don't. It would be human nature in that if they are being paid to carry out an assessment that is what they would do, start from scratch.
    My worry would be that the first assessment went well with an assessor that listened but still got it wrong. Heaven help if you had one of those for the second assessment that wanted to run the assessment their way, not giving you the time to answer fully before they have moved on to the next question.
     
    If the first assessor gathered enough info but just applied it wrong, it would most likely be picked up as an ‘incorrect descriptor’ and a new one would be a applied by the reviewing assessor without the need for a reassessment 


     
    But others have had to go through a full re-assessment. At least two other posters on here have recently had this happen to them.

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