PIP, DLA and AA
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MR refused

tara2019tara2019 Member Posts: 212 Courageous
edited April 2019 in PIP, DLA and AA

suprise suprise just gor MR letter no change to points 6/4 even though support letters from msk specialist, physio reports,my doctors input, pain clinic, mental health team, and occupation therapist stating i need help and adaptations in my home on daily activitives, and mobility, and mental health is severe and how its all effecting my life so tribunal it has to be any advice on tribunal 

Replies

  • MickConnonMickConnon Member Posts: 56 Courageous
    Hi @tara2019, have been reading your post tonight and I’m sure you are not happy having to go to a tribunal! Am not a specialist in tribunals and what happens but am happy being a sounding board for you as having mental Health problems are bad enough without adding anything else to the mix. Am sure someone more up to speed on Tribunal processes can assist you as to be honest I have had next to no experience at these and would not like to give you conflicting information. We do all care on this forum which is why I’m replying to you now as even at this ungodly hour some of us are still here albeit we’re at work 😁
  • CockneyRebelCockneyRebel Member Posts: 5,257 Disability Gamechanger
    Hi tara

    the following may be of some use, tribunals do not have to be scary but they are by nature inquisitorial

    REPRESENTATION AND ROLES

    You can be 

    - a representative - you don’t talk for the appellant because they’re there but you do get to outline what award you’re looking for and what the legal case is as well as pick up on any issues the tribunal or appellant miss or misinterpret.

    - observer - sits away from the tribunal but you are watching only. You do not and cannot take part.

    - witness - you give your own evidence to support the appellants own case. You don’t get to comment on anything else. You watch silently, do your bit and you’re done.

    - appellant - the person making the claim being appealed. The only person allowed to present their evidence and answer questions on it unless they have an appointee. 

    Most family members struggle to be observers as it’s hard to be silent. They struggle to represent as they don’t know enough of the law, case law or guidance and confuse the role with speaking for the appellant and get shot down in flames to the detriment of the case. They often make poor witnesses as they haven’t been prepared by a rep and want to rehear the whole case instead of focusing on what they know. 

    The temptation to talk for any appellant needs to be resisted. You’ll always get people saying “but...

    - they’re not articulate.

    - they’re nervous.

    and many other arguments. Bottom line - nothing makes the case for the consequences of someone’s ill health better than a poorly appellant. 

    The other side of having representative is that, as you’ll read on here, people get incredibly stressed with the process; what comes when; what letters mean; what is good evidence; what will happen on the day. A good rep explains all and covers all the bases. It’s typical that people think representation is just about what happens on the day and the outcome. That’s about 10% of what gets done. A good rep should also keep you off web forums (seriously). All your questions should be answered by them. If people come on here because they need answers and they have a rep. that is concerning. 

    Now, having said that, tribunals are inquisitorial so it’s perfectly possible to win a case without a rep just as it’s equally possible to lose a case with a rep. However, a badly presented case can win with a decent tribunal but won’t with a poor one People who have won without representation tend to almost always ascribe this to something they did rather than the skill of the tribunal pulling out what was relevant. Having seen tribunals over three decades, including many times as an observer, it’s almost never the case. I’ve never yet heard of anyone unrepresented winning two tribunals for themselves. 

    Finally, don’t confuse an organisation with a good reputation as meaning all their reps will be good. Good organisations have bad reps. Reputationally poor organisation have good reps. How can you tell? Walk away from anyone who wants to tell you their success rate? It’s a fave tactic of organisations that charge but also of inexperienced or renegade/boastful reps. That tells you that they’re either lying or cherry picking only cases which are clear cut winners and probably would be anyway with a decent tribunal and without them. Good reps do not guarantee a win but they will take in winnable cases rather than likely winners and they’re the more likely to turn a marginal case into a winner. They’ll also know their law, case law and guidance and be able to cite it but in plain English. 

    TRIBUNAL

    1 - Concentrate wholly on what you were like on the date of claim.

    2 - There are no “trick” questions. Tribunals are usually listed 20 to 40 minutes apart so, apart from the appeal papers, they need questions which cut across lots of functions. So the car question is brilliant because it indicates grip; mobility; dexterity; the ability to do something repeatedly; concentration and stamina. Instead of thinking negatively about such stuff think about what they’re getting at and your answers will be much better and more detailed. Similar questions include whether you’ve been on holiday recently. It feeds into mobility (getting across an airport); stamina; the ability to cope alone; the need for aids and appliances.

    3 - There are no set rules or order for a hearing beyind the requirement that it must be seen to be fair. 

    4 - Watch the judge’s pen. All 3 members may take notes but only the judge writes a record of proceedings. If you don’t want them to miss anything then remember that they can’t write as fast as you can speak, so watch their pen and slow down. Don’t worry about going too slow. They will tell you if you do.

    5 - Never interrupt any tribunal member. It is perfectly okay to challenge them provided it’s not rude or aggressive. However, think about whether what you’re challenging them on is directly related to points. If it’s not then better to focus on points. This is especially important because loads of people second guess the demeanour of tribunal members as determining whether they are pro or against and it’s largely nonsense. An aggressive, challenging member may well just be a poor communicator and wholly on your side right up to the point you challenge them etc.

    6 - Get yourself a representative and travel to the venue by whatever means makes you feel comfortable. It’s only ever an issue if you don’t explain what you did in full and if doing so contradicts your other evidence in some way for daily living and /or mobility.

    7 - Same goes for clothes. You need to wear whatever makes you feel comfortable and relaxed. If you’re not relaxed then the likelihood of you presenting well are much reduced. Dressing down is not a good idea unless that all you can afford. A person who feels naked without make-up or a suit and tie will similarly be over stressed if they try to pretend they’re in their comfort zone dressing down. 

    8 - Other people’s tribunal experience can be valuable but it’s just that. Their experience. If they lost then it’s the tribunal to blame. If they win they everything they did is why they won and what you must do. The truth is usually very much in between.

    9 - Know your case. What points are you going for and why. What’s your evidence? “The HCP was a liar” is neither evidence nor a winning strategy. Also, know the appeal papers. What’s where. 

    10 - Do not be tempted to claim you’ve worsened since the date of claim. That’s a recipe for a failed appeal and an invitation to make another claim. Even if you have got worse always concentrate on your date of claim and what you were like then.





    Be all you can be, make  every day count. Namaste
  • tara2019tara2019 Member Posts: 212 Courageous
    Thanks for advice going to start appeal Monday on line do I send to court everything I've sent to dwp this includes 1st pip form and evidence assessor report, MR form more evidence, there's about 80 pages. I just cant believe how bad the dwp and assessor are they seem to me they are calling specialist,doctor, physio, mental health team, pain clinic, occupational therapist are all lying regarding me, I'm off work at this time but my work have changed my role with adjustment to a desk job due to my mobility/disability and have now aids and grab rails all over my house by occupational health team due to my disabilitys/mobility issues but assessor n dwp says I'm not disabled omg I really wish I wasn't. 
  • CockneyRebelCockneyRebel Member Posts: 5,257 Disability Gamechanger
    Hi tara

    The first stage of your appeal only needs to have the basic reasons for your challenge. Once accepted then the DWP will send you a copy of all the evidence used in your claim ( Known as the bundle ), they also submit this to the tribunal.
    When you receive this, check to make sure all your evidence has been included. The bundle is what you should use to make your own submission. Each page will have a hand written reference number and you should use this to refer to any specific evidence for each descriptor


     
    Be all you can be, make  every day count. Namaste
  • tara2019tara2019 Member Posts: 212 Courageous
    Sounds very complicating and alot of hard work thanks for advice I'll get there eventually maybe ask for help at citizen advice.
  • CockneyRebelCockneyRebel Member Posts: 5,257 Disability Gamechanger
    It is a good idea to get help if you can CAB or welfare rights. In the mean time there is lots of info on here about appeals.



    Be all you can be, make  every day count. Namaste
  • justg72justg72 Member Posts: 173 Pioneering
    It is a good idea to get help if you can CAB or welfare rights. In the mean time there is lots of info on here about appeals.



    Hi CockneyRebel and tara2019
    What is classed as good evidence?
    I have come across a really good website where you can read up on other peoples tribunals, regulations and  case laws the website is:https://pipinfo.net this has really informative information on it.
    I have my tribunal on the 15th of May and have no representation so I am now getting worried, will this make a difference in winning?
    Good luck Tara



  • CockneyRebelCockneyRebel Member Posts: 5,257 Disability Gamechanger
    It is getting harder to get representation at tribunal. The most important thing is to be there to answer their questions. By the very nature a tribunal is inquisitorial,  but they are only trying to get the truth, so just answer as best you can 
    Be all you can be, make  every day count. Namaste
  • tara2019tara2019 Member Posts: 212 Courageous
    Good luck to you too x
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