PIP, DLA and AA
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I didn’t loose everything.

yanhow1yanhow1 Member Posts: 22 Connected
edited April 2019 in PIP, DLA and AA
Three yrs ago when I was assessed for PIP for the first time after being on the highest rate of DLA for 20yrs, I got 8 points for la and 10 points for mobility which was awarded for 3yrs, even after a valiant attempt from the assessor to totally discredit me.

Now I’m up for a review which is pretty much going through the whole thing again.
I’m now worried that even though my condition has deteriorated significantly I will get less points this time because of perhaps a bad assessor/assessment.

Has anyone had this happen to them? 

Do the DWP look at their last award before making a decision and if they don’t, is it worth pointing out for the MR that they award more last time for a lesser condition?

Does anybody think a tribunal would at leased uphold the last award points with the same if not better medical evidence?

thanks

Replies

  • twonkertwonker Posts: 617 Member
    yanhow1 said:
    Three yrs ago when I was assessed for PIP for the first time after being on the highest rate of DLA for 20yrs, I got 8 points for la and 10 points for mobility which was awarded for 3yrs, even after a valiant attempt from the assessor to totally discredit me.

    Now I’m up for a review which is pretty much going through the whole thing again.
    I’m now worried that even though my condition has deteriorated significantly I will get less points this time because of perhaps a bad assessor/assessment.

    Has anyone had this happen to them? 

    Do the DWP look at their last award before making a decision and if they don’t, is it worth pointing out for the MR that they award more last time for a lesser condition?

    Does anybody think a tribunal would at leased uphold the last award points with the same if not better medical evidence?

    thanks
    A review is treated as a new claim. Yes they can see what was said last time around which could help or hinder. It could help if the assessor still agrees with it. It could hinder if the assessor thinks that the previous award was far too generous.
    If your case was one that was changed at MR stage or at a Tribunal they would not see that information. So say that the original assessment advised 0 points and at a Tribunal hearing you were awarded enhanced for both, none of that would be available to the assessor.
  • yanhow1yanhow1 Member Posts: 22 Connected
    I was awarded that without MR, but if it had gone to MR would the decision maker be able to see that info? Would a tribunal think that an assessors opinion that a previous award was too generous was unfair. Also that would be so unprofessional and disrespectful of one HCP to undermine another HCP’s “EXPERT” lol, opinion.
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    Each review should be treated as a new claim by all claimants.

    Whether or not they treat it as a new claim is a different story. My daughters very recent PIP review was paper based assessment and in the assessment report it mentioned the previous assessment report, the review form i sent, and a phone call made to the community learning disability team, the evidence i sent this time was not taken into consideration.

    During my review face to face assessment 2.5 years ago the HCP mentioned my previous report and award
    Proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice I have given to members here on the community.
  • twonkertwonker Posts: 617 Member
    yanhow1 said:
    I was awarded that without MR, but if it had gone to MR would the decision maker be able to see that info? Would a tribunal think that an assessors opinion that a previous award was too generous was unfair. Also that would be so unprofessional and disrespectful of one HCP to undermine another HCP’s “EXPERT” lol, opinion.
    An assessor as does a decision maker can differ completely with a previous report or decision. In fact if you had 6 decision makers looking at the same case it is highly likely that you would get 6 different decisions. Likewise with an assessor and even if you had a brilliant assessment 3 years previous and was awarded enhanced for both care and mobility there would be nothing stopping the current assessor if that is how he/she felt, to give a damning report recommending 0 points across the board.

    Many claimants on this site have reported exactly that happening - 'how can I go from enhanced care & mobility to nothing even though my health and impact has deteriorated so much?'




     
  • yanhow1yanhow1 Member Posts: 22 Connected
    I I totally understand that but would a tribunal panel see it that way.
  • twonkertwonker Posts: 617 Member
    edited April 2019
    Quite interesting.

    From what you say the AR1 is compared to what the eventual award was, do they also consider the original assessor's report?
    Many cases happen where the assessor does not award any points and consequently the DWP go along with that recommendation. With the MR the claimant then convinces the DWP that the report is both factually and suggestingly wrong on many aspects. The revised award now gives enhanced care & mobility.
    Does the assessor also consider why this change happened?
    I am also concerned that you are viewing the claimant on that day and at that time. Are you suggesting that if they look to have no problems in that 30 mins assessment then they should have no problems at all?

  • twonkertwonker Posts: 617 Member
    edited April 2019
    Thanks ilovecats
    Personally I wouldn't like the job of an assessor. You have the assessor looking for traits and signals whilst you have the claimant doing their damned best to appear as normal as they can be. I know I would. The last thing I would want is to appear a bumbling idiot in front of a stranger.
    I have been told by psychiatrists, psychologists, CPN's and OT's  that in psychiatric terms deception and avoidance are some of the tools you quickly learn when dealing with the mental health system.
    Unfortunately it doesn't really help the patient. I spent the best part of 10 years learning the art of deception and avoidance when talking to the many mental health professionals I have been involved with. The best place to hone those skills is when you are under section (why am I in here? Everyone's gone mad and I am the only sane one!)

    The assessor would have one hell of a job trying to look for the traits and signals from how I speak, how I act and what I say. Even on this site what you see from my posts is not me, not the real me, I build up a persona totally the opposite to the real me. In a way it is self protection.

    I have every sympathy for most assessors when faced with people who have deep seated mental health issues.
  • wildlifewildlife Member Posts: 1,314 Pioneering
    edited April 2019
    @ilovecats Going back to your first post, it worries me greatly that so much emphasis is put on paper evidence. There are many reasons why a claimant might not have the necessary written proof but it doesn't mean they don't have the claimed disability. I have a severe health anxiety and being 68 my Doctor weighs the pros and cons of any referral. She has actually voiced her reason for not sending me for investigations for things that there is no cure or treatment for and that is the stress caused to me would out way any benefit of having procedures I couldn't cope with. So should an assessor take that into account when noting the lack of paper based evidence? Talking of which it also concerns me that you say even when medical evidence of mental/cognitive impairment is available if the claimant didn't present to have any problems on the day they would not be awarded for mental health. In other words you are over ruling their mental health Doctors who know far more than any assessor about that person. In my opinion no assessor is qualified to make such decisions and should rely on evidence from specialists in the field of mental health. 
    Lastly you put so much emphasis on written evidence yet there are people who've been given the enhanced rate of both with no evidence whatsoever. 
  • twonkertwonker Posts: 617 Member
    ilovecats said:
    twonker said:
    I have every sympathy for most assessors when faced with people who have deep seated mental health issues.
    The most commonly seen conditions at PIP assessment are normally some sort of mental health condition. Even those with a physical condition, normally have some sort of depression or anxiety associated with long term physical illness. 

    It can be quite draining trying to determine those who are genuinely functionally restricted from those who are not. Especially when someone believes they are but all the evidence suggests otherwise.

    It is not a nice feeling, not awarding, or removing an award when you know someone is relying on the money they have been getting, but PIP is not supposed to be a long term benefit for those with mental health or conditions that fluctuate or could get better. I often tried to explain to people who were having treatment that if they were to 'recover' to an acceptable functional level then their PIP may be reduced or removed. Most people I think appreciated the heads up. 
    Then you have those that you think should be genuinely functionally restricted but who refuse to admit to being so.

    I do like your comment about how people should view PIP. No doubt it would help everyone if the DWP put that comment 'PIP is not supposed to be a long term benefit for those with mental health issues' on the PIP 2. It might just deter those that do see it as one and expect a lifetime award.
    However I do believe that what you meant to say was that whilst a mental health issue may well be a lifetime issue, the impact of it is more than likely to be short lived. In other words people find a way around the difficulties they face in time.
  • twonkertwonker Posts: 617 Member
    ilovecats said:
    twonker said:Then you have those that you think should be genuinely functionally restricted but who refuse to admit to being so.

    I do like your comment about how people should view PIP. No doubt it would help everyone if the DWP put that comment 'PIP is not supposed to be a long term benefit for those with mental health issues' on the PIP 2. It might just deter those that do see it as one and expect a lifetime award.
    However I do believe that what you meant to say was that whilst a mental health issue may well be a lifetime issue, the impact of it is more than likely to be short lived. In other words people find a way around the difficulties they face in time.
    I did often see people, normally with physical conditions such as COPD or Rheumatoid Arthritis, who believed that they 'managed'.

    I had one lady with COPD tell me she was fine getting dressed, she had ticked no problem for dressing but when I pushed her, she said that she never wore socks because she couldn't get them on, and all of her shoes were slip on or flip flops. If she had to, it would take her 10 minutes to put socks and normal shoes on, and she would have to use her inhalers afterwards. I also saw her need to use her inhalers after walking 20m to the assessment room. That is not safe, reliable or within a timely manner, so she ended up scoring for washing and dressing even though she hadn't claimed it. It works both ways.
    So surprised.
    I genuinely believed that if you didn't make a claim for a deemed impact (descriptor) the assessor is under no obligation to consider that area of need. Much like you don't claim you don't get even if the need/impact is pretty obvious. Put it another way and if we go with how you used to assess there is no real need to complete the PIP2 at all. Just turn up at the assessment and let the assessor decide what they should be awarding. 
  • wildlifewildlife Member Posts: 1,314 Pioneering
    I recognize the contradiction was about emphasis on evidence and then saying I should be assessed as having a problem with functionality without evidence if it's something that hasn't been investigated for the reason given. It's not really a contradiction when you consider how complicated we are as people, how many different disabilities there are and how many reasons there might be for whether evidence is available or not. E.g. I would have loads of evidence for mental health but not for Peripheral Neuropathy or nerve damage caused by car crashes. It's a lot to expect any assessor to look into all the why's and wherefores but being believed until proven otherwise instead of the other way round would be a starting point and would save a lot of people an enormous amount of stress.
                        I don't see the need to ask my very busy GP for a letter as you mentioned when other evidence I've submitted says the same thing. You may be interested to know I could not ask my GP for a letter for PIP because back in 2017 she told me that DWP had been told by Gov. not to expect letters from GPs,and that they had to believe what people were telling them (her words not mine). There should be enough information on anyone's medical records along with other evidence to make GP letters specifically for benefit unnecessary. 
        
  • twonkertwonker Posts: 617 Member
    wildlife said:
    It's a lot to expect any assessor to look into all the why's and wherefores but being believed until proven otherwise instead of the other way round would be a starting point and would save a lot of people an enormous amount of stress.     
    I suppose that would be the right thing to do if everyone was absolutely honest in mapping out their difficulties, which descriptors would refer and submitting corroborating evidence.
    There are some amongst us who are not that honest.
    Obviously to weed them out, everyone is treated the same way - prove that you should be believed.
  • twonkertwonker Posts: 617 Member
    ilovecats said:
    twonker said:
    wildlife said:
    It's a lot to expect any assessor to look into all the why's and wherefores but being believed until proven otherwise instead of the other way round would be a starting point and would save a lot of people an enormous amount of stress.     
    I suppose that would be the right thing to do if everyone was absolutely honest in mapping out their difficulties, which descriptors would refer and submitting corroborating evidence.
    There are some amongst us who are not that honest.
    Obviously to weed them out, everyone is treated the same way - prove that you should be believed.
    Some people on this site have obviously had horrendous and unfair experiences.

    I would most likely attribute that to their assessors becoming jaded at the high number of inappropriate applications and how easy it is to become sceptical when you see so many people who are trying to get money they are not entitled to!

    Which is obviously not acceptable! I wish that genuine claimants such as the people who post here for help could witnessed the ridiculous claims I have seen because it would make their blood boil!





    I can well imagine knowing some of them that have tried to claim the benefit and lost. To be honest the system does seem to be working as I know of no one that has been economical with the truth when completing the PIP2 AND had an award!

    As an example the guy two doors up put in a claim (he actually asked if I would help him!) setting out that he can't walk beyond 10 metres, so he said. Yet every Saturday morning in go the golf clubs and off he goes for a round of 18 holes.
    Thankfully he failed simply because he had no evidence to back it up - he just assumed that he would be believed.

  • WaylayWaylay Member Posts: 922 Pioneering
    I'm curious. You said, "...PIP is not supposed to be a long term benefit for those with mental health or conditions that fluctuate or could get better..." Why do you specifically mention mental health and fluctuating conditions? (Obviously if I get better I don't expect to keep getting PIP; that makes complete sense!)

    Unfortunately, although my conditions fluctuate over hours-weeks, they don't improve for more than a day (chronic pain w/ spasms) to a few weeks (mental health including borderline pd). The pain has been going on for 11 years, and the mental health problems for over 30, but the MH issues worsened severely when the pain began, and after subsequent traumatic events. Unless a new treatment is developed for my spasms (I could probably deal with the rest of the pain) or I have a massive MH breakthrough (God, I really hope one or both of those happen!), I'll be disabled long-term.

    Does the DWP assume that fluctuating conditions and complex MH problems will improve? That would explain a lot...

    Thanks!


  • WaylayWaylay Member Posts: 922 Pioneering
  • twonkertwonker Posts: 617 Member
    ilovecats said:

    Does the DWP assume that fluctuating conditions and complex MH problems will improve? That would explain a lot...

    .........I scored them all A’s and their award was taken from them. This is because they are no longer functionally restricted however, I recommended that they be called back for review in 2-3 years to see if their condition had changed because of the known variability.

    That is news to me. How on earth can the DWP call someone back in when they no longer have an award? I don't believe that the PIP regulations allow for that to happen. It is up to the claimant in 2/3 years time to contact the DWP asking for a new claim form. If they don't ask then the DWP won't chase them up.
  • twonkertwonker Posts: 617 Member
    ilovecats said:
    twonker said:
    ilovecats said:

    Does the DWP assume that fluctuating conditions and complex MH problems will improve? That would explain a lot...

    .........I scored them all A’s and their award was taken from them. This is because they are no longer functionally restricted however, I recommended that they be called back for review in 2-3 years to see if their condition had changed because of the known variability.

    That is news to me. How on earth can the DWP call someone back in when they no longer have an award? I don't believe that the PIP regulations allow for that to happen. It is up to the claimant in 2/3 years time to contact the DWP asking for a new claim form. If they don't ask then the DWP won't chase them up.
    We have to go through the formality oh our medical recommendation. That case manager can do what they like.
    In which case the recommendation to re-assess someone in 2/3 years that has no active PIP award is nonsense.
    It stands to logic that if no award is recommended it just isn't possible to recommend that they review years later. The assessors report should just leave that part blank. Who on earth dreamt up that barmy situation?

  • wildlifewildlife Member Posts: 1,314 Pioneering
    @twanker let's face it the whole thing is barmy. With the best will in the world I still say the amount of medical knowledge needed to form the basis of these kind of decisions just does not exist amongst assessors. They may as well look in a crystal ball and pluck an opinion out of nowhere. I accept that some really do want to do the best they can but faced with medical evidence they often do not understand or don't have time to read their only remaining option is a personal opinion outside of their own professional knowledge. The request for functional evidence rather than diagnostic puzzles me. What exactly can we supply to show our daily struggles? Functionality is how we cope in our daily lives when we are alone, or with close family members. They  are the only ones who really know how our disability affects us and that type of evidence is considered the weakest of all and the most likely to be ignored. 
         I still would like to know what evidence will be accepted as per regulations to be able to avoid doing the exercises? How often do we hear of assessor's saying the claimant refused even when a good reason was given backed up by medical evidence. How do we avoid this happening @ilovecats
  • cristobalcristobal Member Posts: 966 Disability Gamechanger
    @wildlife - I think, but I don't know for a fact, that the idea is to direct the benefit at those that are prevented from carrying out day to day tasks by their condition.That's why it is dependent on functionality not just a diagnosis.

    To me this makes a lot of sense - the effect of one condition will be different, dependent on the individual.

    It may not be ideal but I think that it's better than just saying "if you've got x then you get PIP" 

    Functional evidence - I used a report from an OH specialist as to why my loss of functionality meant I couldn't remain in employment. Also a diary, which I used to evidence how I couldn't carry out tasks due to tiredness.
  • twonkertwonker Posts: 617 Member
    wildlife said:
    @twanker let's face it the whole thing is barmy. With the best will in the world I still say the amount of medical knowledge needed to form the basis of these kind of decisions just does not exist amongst assessors. They may as well look in a crystal ball and pluck an opinion out of nowhere. I accept that some really do want to do the best they can but faced with medical evidence they often do not understand or don't have time to read their only remaining option is a personal opinion outside of their own professional knowledge. The request for functional evidence rather than diagnostic puzzles me. What exactly can we supply to show our daily struggles? Functionality is how we cope in our daily lives when we are alone, or with close family members. They  are the only ones who really know how our disability affects us and that type of evidence is considered the weakest of all and the most likely to be ignored. 
         I still would like to know what evidence will be accepted as per regulations to be able to avoid doing the exercises? How often do we hear of assessor's saying the claimant refused even when a good reason was given backed up by medical evidence. How do we avoid this happening @ilovecats


    I've always wondered where this mystical evidence can come from. Not everyone has had a Social Services needs assessment and not everyone has the pleasure of having an OT in their treatment plans.

    I agree that a letter from a wife/husband must rank at the bottom of the pile: of course they are going to agree with what you have put on the claim form.

    Same goes for a diary. I could dream up various scenarios on a daily basis that over a period of time would show me to almost be a vegetable. 
  • twonkertwonker Posts: 617 Member
    ilovecats said:
    cristobal said:
    @wildlife - I think, but I don't know for a fact, that the idea is to direct the benefit at those that are prevented from carrying out day to day tasks by their condition.That's why it is dependent on functionality not just a diagnosis.

    To me this makes a lot of sense - the effect of one condition will be different, dependent on the individual.

    It may not be ideal but I think that it's better than just saying "if you've got x then you get PIP" 

    Functional evidence - I used a report from an OH specialist as to why my loss of functionality meant I couldn't remain in employment. Also a diary, which I used to evidence how I couldn't carry out tasks due to tiredness.
    What @cristobel has written is all correct @wildlife. I know I’ve said it before, and people do not accept it but diagnostic evidence does not tell us much because two people with the same diagnosis can be impacted functionally in a different way. 
    Absolutely, you need evidence of functionality. 
    As an ex assessor, what independent evidence and where may it be found that would satisfy your requirements at the assessment, or indeed at the stage of reviewing the PIP2 prior to a face to face assessment being called for?

    I have already mentioned letters from friends and family that are obviously supporting of what is claimed as well as a diary maintained by the claimant over a couple of weeks which may or may not be a figment of their imagination?

  • cristobalcristobal Member Posts: 966 Disability Gamechanger
    @twonker - if I understand correctly you seem to be dismissing a diary on the basis that "it could be made up".

    It could, of course, but I think that most people are still honest. As well as supporting my application my diary helped me in the F2F as I knew for a fact how often I did x,y,z...


  • cristobalcristobal Member Posts: 966 Disability Gamechanger
    edited April 2019
    @ilovecats- I agree with your point above about 'realistic expectations'

    Lots of the posts on this forum start with "I've got x,y,z and got 0 points!!"

    I've never seen one that says "I thought that I should have got x points, and I only got y", which would be very helpful to know..



  • wildlifewildlife Member Posts: 1,314 Pioneering
    @ilovecats please can you say what tests and by whom can we provide to be able to refuse the movements. You talk about the bending. I only managed to touch the very top of my thighs but my assessor wrote "Knees". I had provided an xray report showing DDD in my lower back. As I've said before ALL my results were not what I actually did with some made up that I didn't do. So it's not surprising I want to avoid this happening again. How would you react as an assessor if I told you my last assessor was dishonest. What wording would be accepted or would it not be a good idea to say anything despite my 2 year battle that came to nothing ?  
  • twonkertwonker Posts: 617 Member
    cristobal said:
    @ilovecats- I agree with your point above about 'realistic expectations'

    Lots of the posts on this forum start with "I've got x,y,z and got 0 points!!"

    I've never seen one that says "I thought that I should have got x points, and I only got y", which would be very helpful to know..



    Exactly. I've got this arthritis in every joint of my body so says the claimant. I scored 0 points!!
    I take co-codamol issued by the GP so I must be disabled.

    Realistic expectation? I have none when it comes to the DWP. I doubt that the assessment report will be realistic given that past experiences tells me so - expectations, it is best not to expect anything, that way if you do get something it is a bonus.

    I do always take the easy way especially where the DWP are involved. I have more going on in my life than worrying about benefit awards or even preparing for an appeal hearing. I get what I am given and am thankful for whatever it is.

  • twonkertwonker Posts: 617 Member
    ilovecats said:
    wildlife said:
    @ilovecats please can you say what tests and by whom can we provide to be able to refuse the movements. You talk about the bending. I only managed to touch the very top of my thighs but my assessor wrote "Knees". I had provided an xray report showing DDD in my lower back. As I've said before ALL my results were not what I actually did with some made up that I didn't do. So it's not surprising I want to avoid this happening again. How would you react as an assessor if I told you my last assessor was dishonest. What wording would be accepted or would it not be a good idea to say anything despite my 2 year battle that came to nothing ?  
    You don’t need any proof to be able to refuse the movements. If you don’t want to do to them you don’t have to. 

    If you can sit straight in a chair and rest your hands on your thighs, providing there are no impairments of your arms then you can realistically reach the tops of your knees. Reaching past your knee caps is shins. Then it would be top, mid of bottom shin or too feet.





    That sounds perfectly logical. Having managed to carry out that simple exercise how does it indicate that I should be able to get in and out of an unadapted bath? Likewise how does it also indicate being able to walk for more than 200 metres? The justification to carry out both of those actions was that I could touch my knees whilst sitting down. Baffles me, but hey it's not the end of the world.
  • wildlifewildlife Member Posts: 1,314 Pioneering
    edited April 2019
    Thanks for the reply. I've just tried what you say and yes I can rest my hands on my thighs, even touch my knees sitting down but standing up is a different matter. I'm no expert on which muscles/part of the spine is required to bend but no way can I get any further down than the top of my thighs. Maybe this is another "barmy" assumption made by whoever dreamed up the exercises. 
  • wildlifewildlife Member Posts: 1,314 Pioneering
    I won't get into a discussion as to how you are supposed to put pants and trousers on if you can't reach further than your knees standing or sitting but just to say all I ask at my review is for the results of the MSE to be truthful and accurate. 
    I guess you have to put them over your head and wriggle them down into position? I know that sounds ridiculous but then so does assuming you can dress the lower part of your body because you can touch your knees sitting down. 
  • CockneyRebelCockneyRebel Member Posts: 5,257 Disability Gamechanger
    Long handle grabbers help me to dress lower half, the only thing I haven't found a way around is compression stockings
    Be all you can be, make  every day count. Namaste
  • CockneyRebelCockneyRebel Member Posts: 5,257 Disability Gamechanger
    LOL I would rather find a way to put them on easily than score points for having them. Open to any suggestions
    Be all you can be, make  every day count. Namaste
  • wildlifewildlife Member Posts: 1,314 Pioneering
    Sorry @CockneyRebel But I need to say it's not just hip and leg problems that stop you (anyone) from bending. I've had 9 abdominal ops, a history of abdo. infections and abcesses plus the big open gall bladder surgery followed by botched keyhole surgery that damaged my small intestines. I'm full of adhesions and permanently bloated. I don't wear socks any time because they make my PN much worse. I do remember visiting an elderly gent during my work as a carer to help him to bed. This included putting compression socks on him. i remember what a struggle it was and I was able bodied at that time.   
  • twonkertwonker Posts: 617 Member
    ilovecats said:











    I can’t explain the assessors reasoning, being able to touch your knees is only an indication of forward spinal flexion, it doesn’t have much to do with walking unless someone is claiming that their back movement is so bad it restricts them from walking. 

    To get in an out of a bath the assessor is looking for an adequate combination of grip, strength, spinal, hip and knee flexion.

    To use aids, if some of the above is reduced, then they would be thinking, can this person use a step, grab rails and a bath board to access a bath.

    The problem is a lot of people don’t use their PIP to actually buy any aids that could help them. They get given a standard (normally aids in Activity 1, 4, 5 & 6) but then when it come to reassessment they haven’t used their PIP as intended and are still claiming that they cannot wash, cook or even dress themselves and someone has to do it all for them. 
    Yes it was a case of poor back movement and in particular lower spinal injury/hip problems. All of which was evidenced. Part of the justification was having hands on knees whilst sitting.

    No points were given for the bath due to the same justification

    Fortunately for most there is no requirement to spend any of the PIP award on aids etc. The claimant can spend it on anything they like. Some use it to top up their housing benefit, some use it to buy IT equipment for their kids, some use it for more holidays, whilst some use it to pay for a more expensive car. Consequently they would/should still qualify for aids as they would need them and they have not been provided.
     
  • yanhow1yanhow1 Member Posts: 22 Connected
    On Twonka’s last note, I don’t want a shinny new car cos I can’t drive but I do have to travel a 160 mile round trip every three weeks at the moment on top of all other local trips which costs a fortune ( career does all that mileage ),
    3yrs ago I got 10 points for mobility for various reasons, one of them being I said I could walk 50mtrs,  ( 20mtrs was not an option on the form ),

    I said that at the time because I could walk about 30mtrs before the pain was simply too much to bare and I had to stop putting weight through my left side,
    in reality though I could not walk 1mtr without really quite bad pain surging through my left side,
    Is pain on the first step and every step after that enough to fit the 12 point descriptor ?  Obviously with a consultant’s report for evidence.

    what I mean is, should I have to push through the pain to the absolute limit or is the first painful step the limit?
    Is long term pain a good reason not to be able to walk 20mtrs?
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    I don't understand it when you say "20 metres was not an option on the form 3 years ago" Yes, it was because i've been claiming PIP since 2013 and this has always been on the form.

    e. Can stand and then move more than 1 metre but no more than 20 metres, either aided or unaided, which scores 12 points.


    Proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice I have given to members here on the community.
  • wildlifewildlife Member Posts: 1,314 Pioneering
    I can touch my knees sitting upright without moving any other part of my body so my spine doesn't have to move at all. I do have long arms so how does that show I can dress my lower body? It's ridiculous. I was assessed as not needing help only aids to get in and out of the shower which is over the bath. Now I know why but as described above the logic is totally illogical. I was assessed as not being able to walk more than 50 metres due to pain and poor balance. I'd had 4 falls within the 12 months prior to my assessment. Yet the assessor said I could step over the side of the bath, stand unaided and wash my body and hair using both hands with no problem. Again totally illogical. I've tried a bath board but it's harder to get into position than staying on your feet and you end up not in the water, if you do ever manage to get onto it. So you either get off the board into the bath or stay put to wash either of which requires excellent flexibility to have access to the water needed to wash. Home assessments would benefit from being able to show how difficult bathing is in the bathroom you have like when the OT visits. 
               I too have often wondered where pain comes into walking which also depends what surface you're walking on. An uneven pavement would be more difficult than an even, flat surface for example.  
  • yanhow1yanhow1 Member Posts: 22 Connected
    I don't understand it when you say "20 metres was not an option on the form 3 years ago" Yes, it was because i've been claiming PIP since 2013 and this has always been on the form.

    e. Can stand and then move more than 1 metre but no more than 20 metres, either aided or unaided, which scores 12 points.


    My apologies, my carer gave me the esa copy by mistake, ( I can’t do paperwork )
    I still ticked 50mtrs because I thought it meant: how far can I walk to the absolute limit of my pain threshold.
    nevertheless the question remains: short of paralysis or double amputation what is a sufficient reason to not be able to walk 20mtrs?

    if pain is not a valid reason then I am at a total loss as to what other possible explanation could there be?
  • wildlifewildlife Member Posts: 1,314 Pioneering
    Pain was accepted for me for 50 metres if that helps @yanhow1 I have a neuroma in the ball of my left foot and was undergoing investigations into pain in my right foot. I've recently developed a small very painful lump under my right foot which the GP thinks is a Ganglian Cyst but wants it scanned to make sure. So I don't expect to be assessed as being able to walk at all without pain. Maybe someone else will help with the question of pain when walking.     
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    Pain is definitely taken into consideration for the "moving around" part of mobility.

    When assessing whether the activity can be carried out reliably, consideration should be given to the manner in which the activity is completed. This includes, but is not limited to, the claimant’s gait, their speed, the risk of falls and symptoms or side effects that could affect their ability to complete the activity, such as pain, breathlessness and fatigue.

    Proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice I have given to members here on the community.
  • CockneyRebelCockneyRebel Member Posts: 5,257 Disability Gamechanger
    You might be able to walk 50 mtrs but can you do so repeatedly, safely, in a timely manner and to an acceptable standard ?
    You must be able to fulfill the above or the descriptor ( c or d ) cannot be applied. You might be able to walk 100 mtrs one day but then be unable to walk 10 mtrs for the following 3 days. Your condition must prevent you completing the activity for the majority of time for the descriptor to be applied
    As to what can cause a claimant not to be able to walk 20 mtrs, many with breathing difficulties or COPD cannot do so. On a bad day I can barely manage 3 steps without a rest
    Be all you can be, make  every day count. Namaste
  • twonkertwonker Posts: 617 Member
    edited April 2019
    wildlife said:
               I too have often wondered where pain comes into walking which also depends what surface you're walking on. An uneven pavement would be more difficult than an even, flat surface for example.  
    If you are talking just about the pain factor, surely it is when you can no longer continue the walk because of pain.
    It's the level of pain I would consider. Many people can walk with the odd twinge or ache which is different to when pain is so overwhelming that you physically cannot carry on. I explained to the assessor that when I reached that point I had to take some Morphine that I always carry around along with my 'Diabetic kit' and inhaler to break through that pain. In reality my pain starts after a few seconds, maybe 5 or 6 steps but I measured it to the point that I could not move any further.
    The result of which I was told that I could walk between 50 and 200 metres which is true.

    At the end of the day it really doesn't matter what you say, the proof is in the pudding so to speak.
    You will have to show with evidence and on the balance of probabilities that you cannot walk the particular distance you have claimed because of the pain factor.
  • wildlifewildlife Member Posts: 1,314 Pioneering
    edited April 2019
    @Twanker Strange you quoted  that bit I wrote and tonight I nearly fell outside Church when walking on uneven ground, fortunately there was a high bank of grass next to me which I fell onto otherwise I'd have been on the floor. I hope you're all OK tonight or as OK as you can be. PS. It's less than 50 metres from the door to the disabled parking lay by in case anyone's wondering. Lol 
  • twonkertwonker Posts: 617 Member
    wildlife said:
    @Twanker Strange you quoted  that bit I wrote and tonight I nearly fell outside Church when walking on uneven ground, fortunately there was a high bank of grass next to me which I fell onto otherwise I'd have been on the floor. I hope you're all OK tonight or as OK as you can be. PS. It's less than 50 metres from the door to the disabled parking lay by in case anyone's wondering. Lol 
    I've done that quite a few times myself but outside in the village hall car park where the potholes are like craters!
    I put it down to my clumsiness and not looking where I am walking.
     
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