failed my ESA assessment for the 2nd time

zakblood

good morning all, been on incapacity benefit now for 20 years, making this year my 5th assessment, failed one in the past by one point, this year a few days ago i had my reply and part assessment decision in writing on the 15th of April, which i scored 0 points, seems the nurse either can't read or doesn't understand the 80 pages of hospital and doctors and consultants notes, even the pretty ones in color showing scans and stuff, aged 52 now i do wonder if it's all worth it, been to see CAB and my local job centre, which said if i wish to sign on, as from the 15th of April i have no income what so ever, as ESA has been stopped, so no benefit and no way of claiming anything else either it seems, as the job centre says while i can appeal and have sent in the Mandatory reconsideration PDF, it seems 80% is the target for failure, so it's almost a wait before a no comes my way and then back again to Tribunal, my 2nd one in 20 years, won one, so hay ho, maybe again, as they read, nurse at assessment doesn't, it's that simple. 

zakblood

i was diagnosed with spinal arthritis in 1999, since then have had 5 Xrays and MRI's, all saying the same thing, getting worse not better, been on tablets and medication now for so long, i'm getting other symptoms like everyone else on long term medication, bowel, bladder and kidney issues with weeks in hospitals ever other year, now to have found out i also have arthritis in my hips shoulders and wrists, making live in general harder than it was and getting worse with age, not better, with little in the way of help for the condition i suffer with, which is common and affects many, so no big deal, no miracle cure, just tablets for life and the side effect they give, i've asked for recordings to be made of my interview and assessments, as in the past with ATOS and proved it in Tribunal, they lie and do it quite often, it's easy to trip them up, as what they write doesn't match times and dates and if you refuse a exam on the day and then they give a % of how much you can do a given task, but looks, it won't hold up in court / Tribunal, as no person can give a correct % by looks alone, but this is not why i'm here, or the point i'm trying to make, everyone's now in the same boat, it's targets and saving money, and not about treating people fairly or honestly, as lets be honest, i say how it effects me, but if you see other wise, which one is correct? on any given day, you are different, some days will always be better than others, so to say on one given day out of a year, with no regards to your medical history, you viewed and disregarded by looks alone, which is not only wrong, it's not right.

zakblood

so, as i read about how many are in the same boat and have killed themselves after a failed assessment, 107k the DWP says at last count on there website, for 2018 anyway, so will now be higher, this is just a post to those in the same boat, saying your not alone, sink or swim, it's a choice we all have to make, fight it, or not, when the job centre says you aren't fit for Job seeker's allowance (JSA) but you fail to fit in any other box, not unwell enough for disability, so incapacity fits, but is no longer there, so where do you go from here?

zakblood

so far, i've filled in the Mandatory reconsideration PDF, so wait for the reply, bank holiday weekend, so won't be any time soon, met with the CAB and my local Nottingham advice service, who's advice was almost the same as the job centre, fight means wait with nothing, don't fight and sign on, means your saying and agreeing with the decision that you are able to work, but this route gives you money, while fighting doesn't, so catch 22, i took the fight, so booked in with my local MP, who got me a date for a meeting and i've sent him all my details and paper work and see where i go from there, as i hear there is a legal option as well to sue the DWP, so may put my name down for that as well, as never been one to lie down, but also don't like the approach or what i've been offered so far either, called assessment coaching, where your given advice and training on how to do the assessment correctly, seems lol i needed that with a 0 score assessment, but i'm making a point, i'm honest, maybe too honest, as it seems it's got me where i am now, everyone knows of the wolf who cried sheep, and that's not me, but it seems i've now got to become something i'm not to get what, on the whole is something i'm entitled to? which leaves a taste in my mouth which isn't a nice one

zakblood

any advice or thoughts, please feel free to chip in, thanks

Government_needs_reform

zakblood said:

any advice or thoughts, please feel free to chip in, thanks

My friend it seems quite a lot to take in, im sure you will get advice soon.

All I can say is I really feel for you and many others that are given very wrong decisions.

This Government certainly are polluting people to the edge with these assessments, it amazes me how one crappy assessment can fail you with a complete stranger?

Touch Wood I've been okay for now, Ive already said if I got in the situation your in by being forced to claim JSA, UC work commitments I know I can't sign to say I'm fit for work thus having no money and eventually loosing our home(s).

I will never live on the streets I will end up in Prison rather the being homeless.

The DWP are just breaking people to self destruct end of.

twonker

Almost 10 years ago I claimed ESA. Had the assessment and came out with a 0 points decision. Telephoned the DWP to ask now what happens to be told that I must claim JSA. Did that paperwork and went to the local JC+. After 15 mins of talking to them it was announced that I was incapable of work so no point in looking for it. The JSA application form was torn up and binned in front of me. Then told to claim ESA as I was clearly to them far too ill to work!!
The system is ridiculous You have two choices starve due to no income, or enter into the pit of vipers they call the appeal system and make yourself stressed to glory. 

zakblood

thanks for the replies, before on incapacity it states you are too ill to work, but yes fully agree i'm not unwell enough for disablity as most days from day to day, i can do and verbal and in written form say the same, but i also both verbally and in written form say what i can and can't do, as it depends on if i've slept for one, or at all, then how my meds are or aren't effecting me, as some days they work with no side effects, next day it hits like like a brick with side effects, seems instead of being well on the day of the assessment, i should have eaten the day before and drank, which i never do if i'm going somewhere, then without food or water, i know my inside will be fine, most of the time, same as taking no tablets, the day before i go, makes my feel worse, but also i know i won't either mess myself or wet myself, and even given them those details, they still don't take it in, and also don't write it down, seems only good points get written, yes i can, not on a poor or bad day i can't, so yes while your there in person, it seems on reflection, only part of your replies count, the one they write down, so everyone get it recorded, so they can't alter the fact on paper, then you won't suffer the fate of so many

twonker

zakblood said:

thanks for the replies, before on incapacity it states you are too ill to work, but yes fully agree i'm not unwell enough for disablity as most days from day to day, i can do and verbal and in written form say the same, but i also both verbally and in written form say what i can and can't do, as it depends on if i've slept for one, or at all, then how my meds are or aren't effecting me, as some days they work with no side effects, next day it hits like like a brick with side effects, seems instead of being well on the day of the assessment, i should have eaten the day before and drank, which i never do if i'm going somewhere, then without food or water, i know my inside will be fine, most of the time, same as taking no tablets, the day before i go, makes my feel worse, but also i know i won't either mess myself or wet myself, and even given them those details, they still don't take it in, and also don't write it down, seems only good points get written, yes i can, not on a poor or bad day i can't, so yes while your there in person, it seems on reflection, only part of your replies count, the one they write down, so everyone get it recorded, so they can't alter the fact on paper, then you won't suffer the fate of so many

All I can see that will happen if everyone records their assessment, the time taken for an MR and the waiting time to get to appeal will grow ridiculously. Expecting the decision makers or the Tribunal to listen or read an hours length of the assessment and that's before they start to make the decision or start the Tribunal?

zakblood

12 year or so ago, i forget the date tbh, it took about 4 months for Tribunal, and they were great, i can still remember one of the panel members saying it felt like he was being cross examined, which i found funny, as i'd done my home work, there all doctors on the panel and won't go and rule against consultants notes or paper work / findings etc, so as long as you have enough proof, all should go well, there's bound to be some that still fail and don't go your way, that's life, and more hurdles are now being put into place to stop the golf courses filling up with all the ones who faked it, with me its simple,. my complaint isn't a day to day thing, it depends on many variables, weather makes me worse, damp, lack of sleep, drugs working too well or not enough, build up of tablets in system etc etc so no day is ever the same and as such i can't plan in advance as i never know, but while the assessment is on face contact and looks, Tribunal isn't, so more detail and notes, history come into play, and it's a panel not a single person with targets and bonus to meet either, but yes if it takes too long, you go broke, and one of the main reasons it puts many off, or makes them hurt or kill themselves, as most on it, are the weaker parts of society and not always fully mental aware or balanced to make the long haul, we are have out darker days, some more than others, been there and got out on the good side, but some don't make it, atm it feels like your kicked when your already at your low points, so number of dead will surely rise until the DWP gets this taken off them, not saying it will be better, as like history, wishing for something doesn't always mean with time, a replacement if for the good either   

Government_needs_reform

Yes I've tried killing myself more than once because I had everything to live for?

But no more.

Now I feel just like a cabbage because of my many conditions and pills I have to take. I sent in all the proper evidence to back everything up and left No wiggle room and my assessments was all done Paper Based.

Here is some of what they said, I won't add the full info on the other page because of personal reasons.



Also they've said this below.




So yes I've been spared for now, but I feel like a waste of space because I can't do what I used to and make my own money.

zakblood

yes i'm sorry and feel your pain, been there in the pits of dispare and came out the other side, somewhat stronger, as what doesn't kill me, makes me stronger approach and motto i live with, on my 3rd assessment i got the same, no need to recall, as illness will get worse with age and no chance atm with medical knowledge to get better, i've tried to cut my wrists in the past twice, but seems my mental state doesn't appear on my form, even though i mention it on more than a few times and give the doctors reports from school age and upwards, so imo they again didn't care, while i'm 99% sure i won't become another statistic on the SWP website of deaths from failed assessments, i'm not sure they'd care either one way or another tbh, i was in the building trade as a wet plasterer, and made money like printing my own, when illness made my first wife leave, as nobody could or should be expected to live with someone who was as funny as i was at time for any reasons, in the days i had no idea what was wrong, young and stupid, now just stupid. but as we get older, and somewhat wiser, we learn, we deal with what we can, and do as much as we can, and cope, living is another topic altogether, i'd just say survive, for the less than £100 i got a week, missing isn't the end of the world for me, it just means, again others like friends and family, feed me and look after me until i'm back on my feet, as i get older mind you, so do my parents, so without them, yes not sure i'd have the strength to do much climbing out of many dark places any longer and there also not a bottomless pit either for money, while my partner for 12 years is great, not sure she also wants to keep me for every, never yet made that vow but had planned to do next year in July, but lack of resources by then even if i win the appeal, will surely not be enough, but that's the last of my worries, day to day is one thing, long term planning is for younger people

poppy123456

80 pages of evidence is an awful lot for anyone to read, which is why very often less is more.

zakblood

20 years of notes is 120+ of evidence for me, so now i have 1999 to 2018, with only this year missing as still onoing, by the time it's all there, it will be 120+ it's not for me to say which is and what it's relevant, 5 MRI's and Xrays are 20 pages without the notes, so yes it soon builds up and if you give them well in advance, it shouldn't a issue, but to not even have read or mentioned them in an assessments, even when they were hand given a month in advanced, signed and dated received, but still Tribunals are different, last time they did read them and i had notes before hand from them on if it was enough, as at the time i only had up to a given date, this time it was 2012 only, so now i have requested and paid for the last set to be fully up to date, but yes understand your point, but my point it, it wasn't read at all, so i'd already given a bullet point with dates and reasons for hospital visits and admissions, with basic guides, a kind of idiot guide i called it, quick and easy for me to repeat if asked, which i wasn't, and also at a glance, to bounce them off the i'm real and not a fake kind of record in written form with associated backup as proof, and lol i still scored 0 points on the 5th assessment, which kind of makes the point score of the other 4 somewhat odd as i've never been less than one point off, and 3 times had more than needed, so now i'm cured, sing hallelujah, a miracle 

cristobal

@zakblood - when you say that "it's not for me to say which is and what's not relevant" I wonder if you have someone who could go through the 120 pages and help you decide what to use to support you?

You must do what you think best but it's very hard to see how evidence from 20 years ago would be relevant ...

Good luck, whatever you decide...

CockneyRebel

If you feel that 120 pages of evidence is all relevant then you should submit it. It would be a good idea to number each page then add a summary with bullet points and references to page and paragraph so the reader, whether HCP, CM or tribunal can find the exact evidence and point you are making.

With a large quantity of evidence, there is a risk that it won't be read fully and in some cases some evidence may conflict with others.

It is your claim and therefore  it is entirely up to you what you deem to be relevant to prove your claim, don't rely on the reader to find specific points

zakblood

well i have my first MRI and XRay from 1999, which a senior consultant has hand written notes on it stating what i had, the formal name, and comments as it's a teaching hospital, and a reply to my question which is was more than happy to answer, and then when asked wrote the reply on my notes, spinal arthritis, or spondylarthritis , canal stenosis with posterior disc bulges at 5 points in the spine, offered and refused spinal injection , degeneration of the lumbar spine, will get worse with age and wear and tare, so all the other 4 since have been worse, as he predicted and still nothing they can do for me, but the DWP says im fit and fine, so i'll leave it with them, as i'm hoping the MRL works, but if not i'll be back to Tribunal, but yes it's already got a help sheet, fact sheets and bullets points for the main points and dates and times and events etc, but yes take your point, one reason i'm getting more help now, always had the same, but a 0 score seems quite common now atm, with those with previous scores of X number of times of passer, so all replies and comments are welcome and it does sink in and to the most part, i agree with everyone above, while i'm not happy to be alone, as i'd wish it on know one, i'm sure you all know what i mean, it's nice to feel your not singled out etc

so yes have a few places to visit before by hearing if given a date, and by then will have more of my personal folder in order, so less hopefully in size wise, but overall a stronger case 

CockneyRebel

As has been said many times, no ammount of medical evidence can show how your functionality is affected. Medical evidence can only give the reasons why you may have problems but two people with the same evidence can be affected in different ways

zakblood

agreed, and as most people don't have the same issues from one day to the next, it's hard to fully see how a face to face on one day with nothing else taken into consideration makes a valid point either, if only positive points are written down, when both are given, my point is, balances comes with a mixture of both, seeing, reading and then understanding, if no reading is done, no background is gone into and only half your comments are written down, makes you wonder why the other half's been disregarded in my book, but good point and again thanks for the reply and time to post 

zakblood

well latest news as of my last 2 phone calls today, god only know how much the bill is going to be when that bomb shell drops, but anyway, council tax sorted, painless, as they have already been informed in my change of circumstances it seems, so all i had to do is go in and sign it, the joint online tax credits the same, so now all i have to do is manage on £448.00 a month less until my Tribunal date is sorted, once my recon letter is read, laughed at and returned by snail mail, then wait for the Tribunal date which i'm informed could be 2 months to 12 month to happen with the backlog, simple math's, we either go into dept or starve, as too be able to claim anything now, i first have to either say i'm fit for work, and then be told i can't get JSA as unable to fulfill the requirements, eg unfit to work,. lie and get it, which would make my appeal fall flat on it's face, go and look for a job, which i can't do and fail big time in it, or ask my partner and career to work more hours, as atm she does 30 hours and then spends the rest looking after me unpaid, so in limbo atm as per guide https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/benefits/sick-or-disabled-people-and-carers/employment-and-support-allowance/while-youre-getting-esa/esa-money-and-benefits-during-reconsideration/

zakblood

just been down to the council offices to sort out council tax, and meet a lady there on the help desk who's just given me a hard time, saying her husband has the same illnesses as me and still works full time and just failed his PIP assessment, seems she took it out of me for it, and was kind of saying he manages, so what's my problem?, took me back a bit tbh and i was lost for words, seems her own heart ache got transferred to me, and i got the wrong end of her wrath through no fault of my own, ah well seems another one who can have a bad day, just adding to mine and making me feel worse   went there for help and advice and was put in my place good and proper, bottom of the pile again it seems and real scum of the earth like what i am

[Deleted User]

The thing is, we are all different, just because you both have the same health problems doesn't mean it would affect you in the same way.. and honestly, people shouldn't take their **** out on others like that. Was this a person that works for the council? If so it might be worth having a moan about her to the council. Up to you though.

poppy123456

If i went to my council offices and was spoken to with an attitude like that then i would have been straight on the phone to make a complaint.

[Deleted User]

I had the same off my previous housing patch manager, she spoke to me like I was stupid (some do that when you tell them you have mental health problems) and spoke to my son perfectly fine, even my son noticed it, so after that I tried not to contact her for anything, I think we have a new patch manager now.

zakblood

had a meeting this morning with Mark Spencer my local MP, and gave him all my details and experiences and some quotes from online from here and other disability web sites on facts and figures etc, so he says he will bring it up next week with the head of the DWP and see if he can get some answers, i told him about the lies being told by assessors with proof of them, and also how people like myself and others with 5 previous assessments were all scoring 0 points the same, shown him the links and figures for the over turn rate at Tribunal etc and he listens and was shocked how poor the system wasn't working, as yes wasn't was the correct word, as was it surely isn't.

so fingers crossed, still nothing to report of the Mandatory Reconsideration letter sent, as no reply as yet, tested and failed in march the 19th, letter sent explaining it to me on the 14th of April and letter of Mandatory Reconsideration sent a few days later,. phoned a few times, but no news or reply as yet, so will wait 6 weeks from sending and see how i go, as i'm 99.9% it will be a Tribunal again, and now look forward to it, stress and all, just to prove a point, lying gets no one anything, and i'm not prepared to get coaching on how to pass a assessment either, just to make them feel happier, it needs to be fit for purpose and honest from both sides, no be lied to on the day, or be told on the day that if i don't take part because of no recording equipment it will go down as I've missed it either, i asked in writing and on the day and was told, it wasn't needed and if i refused the assessment, it wouldn't be in my interest, should have stood my ground then and there and left and given it the reason, then once recorded, they can't lie with your replies and answers,...

my written replies don't match no where near her written ones, so rather a larger conflict, and with me doing 5, yes i do know how the system works, don't trip myself up or forget, i'm honest, seems i've just found and had another dishonest one