PIP Paper Appeal Adjourned - Don't really understand letter?

Pipquestions2

Hi all, calling on @poppy123456 specifically as she helped in the past.

A while ago I said I would be doing a paper appeal (which was advised against doing), because I'd have trouble attending tribunal due to my anxiety. I sent away my paper appeal a few weeks ago and today I heard back after a 45 minute hearing.

Here's a summary of what the letter says. I am assuming this is a good thing (is it a good thing?), as I have not been outright denied so they must think I have a case based off how I described my problems. But I don't really understand it still? What does this mean exactly? When is the new tribunal? It's a bit confusing for me and doesn't give much detail away in a clear manner. Is the next tribunal in 6 weeks?

"

A tribunal heard your appeal, I enclosed the decision notice.

The tribunal has decided to adjourn the hearing. The decision notice explains why the tribunal were unable to decide the appeal. It may also include instructions to ensure the next tribunal can reach a decision. If you need to contact me, please quote your NI Number at top of letter."

"Adjournment notice

1. The appeal was adjourned today for an oral hearing, with a time estimate of 45 minutes, on the first available date after compliance with the direction set out below or in default after 6 weeks.

2. Members of this tribunal are not excluded from future involvement in the appeal

3. The decision was adjourned today because the tribunal considers that there is insufficient evidence on which to reach a just decision.

Directions:

(i) The appellant is encouraged to attend the next hearing in person.

(ii) The appellant is encouraged to seek represnation

(iii) The appellant is also encouraged to seek recovery from his GP of his medical records covering the last two years."

What does this mean? Do I have to follow all 3 directions, or would just 1 be enough? How am I meant to get the information off my Dr when I asked her before for it she said "There's no need to give you it because they will ask me for it and it'll be the same thing" (They didn't ask her for it)

poppy123456

Hi,

Basically, what they asking is for you to appear in person because they can't making a decision without you appearing is very difficult, which is why they adjourned it this time. This can happen when they don't have enough evidence to make a decision with a paper hearing and this is why they will always prefer you to appear in person.

They are also encouraging you to find a representative, which of course you don't have to do because it's not always possible to find someone.

They are also asking for you to send in your medical records from the last 2 years.

I wouldn't say they are asking you to do all 3, more so advising you. As for the request to appear in person then if you can then i certainly would, otherwise your chance of a decision in your favour are only about 8%. Even more so now because they are asking you to appear in person.

I'm sure others will advise too.

wilko

Hello and welcome, the directions being asked are for you to do, get all three items mentioned. Make sure you attend., get representation for the hearing and the last two years worth of medical records from your GP. May I sujest you make copies of any information you send or give the DWP so that your representative at the hearing is able to view and prepare your best case to the tribunal hearing and hopefully you will get the results you are seeking. 

Pipquestions2

poppy123456 said:

Hi,

Basically, what they asking is for you to appear in person because they can't making a decision without you appearing is very difficult, which is why they adjourned it this time. This can happen when they don't have enough evidence to make a decision with a paper hearing and this is why they will always prefer you to appear in person.

They are also encouraging you to find a representative, which of course you don't have to do because it's not always possible to find someone.

They are also asking for you to send in your medical records from the last 2 years.

I wouldn't say they are asking you to do all 3, more so advising you. As for the request to appear in person then if you can then i certainly would, otherwise your chance of a decision in your favour are only about 8%. Even more so now because they are asking you to appear in person.

I'm sure others will advise too.

Honestly I pretty much gave up and was very much expecting to be flat out denied - for it to be adjourned they must think there is a possible case for my entitlement here? Or is this sort of standard procedure?

What would my medical records prove though? I've had a copy to take to hospital with me, all it says is no allergies, non smoker, severe social anxiety of child hood and some other problems but nothing really indepth of how it effects me (which my GP knows too). It doesn't really go into depth with my problems. Or are they looking for a more indepth, full record of everything thats happened in the past 2 years - which I'm not sure would be very helpful either, as I seen the Psychiatrist and CPN 3 years ago which would explain all my problems.

Last time (MR) I was denied because I'm not on medication, not under specialists. Medication knocks me loopy except Diazepam which my Dr refuses to give (due to addition factors probably, not really sure why. Only time I've been given it was when I was in hospital). Specialists I've been under psychiatrists who suspected autism, I failed that and he offered me antidepressants which as I said knocked me stupid so I stopped taking them. She hahs tried to send me to therapy but I thought it would be too hard to go to, however more recently when I was in seeing her, she actually told me Therapy isn't ideal for me because that's a short term thing (6 weeks) and I need something more longterm for my problems and is sending me to something that lasts 6 months instead but I'm not entirely sure what that is in all honesty, I just went along with it.

Do you think the fact it's been adjourned helps my case due to the fact I've not outright been denied it which I assume would be the case if they thought I had no chance? What happens if I don't do any of the advised options and it goes to a paper appeal again (I'm assuming), I'm guessing the chances of the same result would be high?

poppy123456

Adjourning isn't good or bad. They are saying they can't make a decision based on paper alone, which is why they are asking for you to appear in person. This can happen if they can't make a decision on paper alone. A Tribunal will always prefer you to appear in person.

Do you have anyone that can attend with you?

They're asking for all your medical records for the past 2 years.

Pipquestions2

poppy123456 said:

Adjourning isn't good or bad. They are saying they can't make a decision based on paper alone, which is why they are asking for you to appear in person. This can happen if they can't make a decision on paper alone. A Tribunal will always prefer you to appear in person.

Do you have anyone that can attend with you?

They're asking for all your medical records for the past 2 years.

Nope not really. Not reliably anyways lol

Won't say much in past 2 years as I spent half of that in pain with gallstones and pancreatitis. The other half I was on antidepressants and had a few panic attacks in my Dr Surgery but not sure if that will be in it as I don't know how much they actually write? But a lot of it wouldn't be related to my mental health. 3 years would be more appropriate, do you think I should just ask for 3 years as that will be going back to the CPN/Psychiatrist and the whole autism nonsense will be in it aswell?

Even though they only asked for 2 years I think going back 3 years would be more appropriate. Or going back to when I was 12/13 when all my problems kicked off but that's probably a bit too much.

What if my Dr doesn't give me it? She will probably just say 'They can contact me for it' again, which as we both know, they won't.

poppy123456

Your GP can't refuse you access to your medical records.

The Tribunal have asked for the past 2 years, if they wanted more they would have asked for it.

I really do think it's in your best interest to appear in person, if you don't then you could lose the Tribunal.

Pipquestions2

poppy123456 said:

Your GP can't refuse you access to your medical records.

The Tribunal have asked for the past 2 years, if they wanted more they would have asked for it.

I really do think it's in your best interest to appear in person, if you don't then you could lose the Tribunal.

Will ask for it then, gonna ask for 3 years anyways, as that will help my case more, even if they don't want it, it will at least be there if they want to read it or not. Can't hurt my case and will only help - a lot of my PIP MR examples was focused on this timeframe also anyways.

Don't they say they don't take evidence into consideration if it's from after your claim date? So wouldn't the 2 years be from claim date anyways (making it nearly 3 years)?

Will see what I can do.. When is the next tribunal? It doesn't exactly give me any information about this. How am I meant to even respond to it? Send a letter to the tribunal address? It doesn't give me a form or envelope or anything to actually respond with. It only says to include my NI number if I have to contact them but doesn't give me a way to actually contact them.

It also says the tribunal was held in a completely different city to where I live, roughly an hour and a half away by train - I hope this isn't the same court I would have to go to when there's one in my own CIty?

CockneyRebel

Attending in person will always give you the best opportunity to explain your case. As a poor alternative, if you really are unable to attend, the tribunal may consider a telephone hearing

Pipquestions2

CockneyRebel said:

Attending in person will always give you the best opportunity to explain your case. As a poor alternative, if you really are unable to attend, the tribunal may consider a telephone hearing

I have communication problems so I wouldn't be able to explain my case anyways, I actually explain it better in text. I'm not very good at explaining myself, hence why my answers are "dunno" at my assessments.. Vast majority of time they have to be open and closed shut questions as I struggle to answer in depth... Never been a problem for ESA but for PIP that seems to have been a mistake.

Well, it was a problem for ESA once.. This resulted in me panicking and locking myself in another office for 30 minutes (only because I couldn't escape as it was all keypadded doors), before going back into the room and not opening my mouth for the remainer of the assessment. That was in 2017 and I think I've been kept on for the full 3 years again.

Can't speak on phone due to the above aswell.

poppy123456

The Tribunal will only take into consideration what you were like at the time the decision was made. They won't take into consideration a worsening of condition. This doesn't mean they won't accept evidence after this date.

Are you able to speak to an advice centre near you?

Pipquestions2

poppy123456 said:

The Tribunal will only take into consideration what you were like at the time the decision was made. They won't take into consideration a worsening of condition. This doesn't mean they won't accept evidence after this date.

Are you able to speak to an advice centre near you?

Will see what I can do about advice centre and these medical records on Monday maybe. There is one pretty close by but it's finding someone to go with me that would be the problem.

That 6 month thing my Dr is sending me to is something to do with reducing isolation, building confidence, working towards living independently and getting someone involved to help me get out a bit more, but I don't know how long the waiting lists are for that - or if they would even attend tribunal with me.. Don't even know if I would be able to do this as I will end up panicking and it will put me off the idea completely but I'll see what happens when the time comes.

Pipquestions2

poppy123456 said:

Adjourning isn't good or bad. They are saying they can't make a decision based on paper alone, which is why they are asking for you to appear in person. This can happen if they can't make a decision on paper alone. A Tribunal will always prefer you to appear in person.

Do you have anyone that can attend with you?

They're asking for all your medical records for the past 2 years.

Just an update. Mum flat out refused to go with me to tribunal, so me personally attending is completely out the window.

So I don't really have anyone else that can go with me at all.

Is it still worth going to citizens advice or a waste of time? Because I won't go to tribunal myself and don't really have anyone else that can come with me. Can get someone to come with citizens advice but not the tribunal. At this point the only reason I'd be going to CAB would be to get someone to show up and speak for me, without me being there, because there's no chance I'll be going myself.

wildlife

If I want my medical records I don't ask my GP. It is not their job to supply medical records only to add to them when you visit. Every surgery has an admin dept. accessed through the receptionist. Everyone has the right to have copies on request. You may have to pay a small admin charge. The question of whether you go to the tribunal or not. Ask yourself do you want PIP or are you not really bothered? If you really want/need the benefit go to CAB to ask if they can help find someone to go with you. Even if you don't speak your chances of winning will be so much higher than if you don't go. No-one going on your behalf on their own will know you as well as you know yourself. I feel the same as you about any face to face interview but sometimes you just have to do things you don't want/feel able to do to get the end result that will make it all worthwhile.     

poppy123456

CAB no longer represent at any Tribunal because they don't have the funding anymore.

If you did manage to get representation from another advice agency then they would not appear on your behalf, you would still  have to appear in person and you will still have to answer all the questions yourself because the Tribunal will want to hear from you how your conditions affect you. Which is why they have asked you to appear in person.

You can try asking for a telephone hearing but i don't know if they would agree to this.

Pipquestions2

poppy123456 said:

CAB no longer represent at any Tribunal because they don't have the funding anymore.

If you did manage to get representation from another advice agency then they would not appear on your behalf, you would still  have to appear in person and you will still have to answer all the questions yourself because the Tribunal will want to hear from you how your conditions affect you. Which is why they have asked you to appear in person.

You can try asking for a telephone hearing but i don't know if they would agree to this.

So that's a waste of time then. 

As I have mentioned I have major communication problems, they wouldn't hear from me.how my problems effect me because of this as I struggle with communicating. Also why I can't use the phone so a phone tribunal is out the window too. The best way I can explain how my problems effect me is written words , hence the paper appeal. Attending in person sounds like it would probably hurt my.chances as I can't explain myself properly verbally.  As I have said when I go to these assessments most of my answers are "dunno" because I struggle to put into words that can come out my.mouth. Whereas if I am typing I can explain it better.

Guess I will just have to get my medical records and do another paper .Appeal .

poppy123456

When you send the medical evidence i'd advise adding a letter saying you can't appear in person and why. It may not go in your favour as they've asked you to appear in person because they can't make a decision based on paper. Do come back and let us know the outcome. Good luck.

wildlife

Sorry for the wrong advice and thank-you @poppy123456 for correcting me. @Pipquestions2 My son has a similar problem with communication. I am his appointee and used to attend all appointments with him but can no longer do this. However I am still his appointee as my own problems do not prevent me from doing his paperwork. I wrote a short note to the assessor to give his Dad permission to go with him to his PIP face to face. Once there my son hardly had to speak and was able to let his Dad speak for him. Maybe this would help in the future. Do you have a member of your family or a good friend who you trust who could become your appointee? You could still fill in the forms between you if you're able as you say you are but it would relieve the pressure on you. I can't see it going against you if you went and couldn't answer the questions as the tribunal would then see your problems for themselves. More written evidence particularly about your communication problems would help a lot if you aren't going. 

Pipquestions2

wildlife said:

Sorry for the wrong advice and thank-you @poppy123456 for correcting me. @Pipquestions2 My son has a similar problem with communication. I am his appointee and used to attend all appointments with him but can no longer do this. However I am still his appointee as my own problems do not prevent me from doing his paperwork. I wrote a short note to the assessor to give his Dad permission to go with him to his PIP face to face. Once there my son hardly had to speak and was able to let his Dad speak for him. Maybe this would help in the future. Do you have a member of your family or a good friend who you trust who could become your appointee? You could still fill in the forms between you if you're able as you say you are but it would relieve the pressure on you. I can't see it going against you if you went and couldn't answer the questions as the tribunal would then see your problems for themselves. More written evidence particularly about your communication problems would help a lot if you aren't going. 

Nope I don't have anyone that can go with me. I have 4 people close to me, 2 are unreliable, 1 can't go due to being in care of a baby in recent times and the other has flat out refused to go, normally she would be the one to go to appointments with me however she's recently developed a serious mental health issue and it's [removed by moderator] me for appointments and such.

The unreliable people could come with me if it's short notice and I'm able to dictate the time and dates, to work around them, but for something unpredictable like this they're not ideal

I have a more serious court case coming up(caused by my actions of being alone in hospital) and they even refuse to go with me to that,  and basically told me to enjoy being In the cells. When I expressed suicidal (not seriously, I think, just kinda came out) they basically told me to do it, my family is complicated to understand, my existence is a problem to them sometimes ?. So I don't even know what I'm doing with that as I won't be able to attend court for that either and I'm pure stressed out about it and feel like I'm losing the plot. Any tips on how to get out of attending court btw? Would a letter from my doctor be any good?  ???

poppy123456 said:

When you send the medical evidence i'd advise adding a letter saying you can't appear in person and why. It may not go in your favour as they've asked you to appear in person because they can't make a decision based on paper. Do come back and let us know the outcome. Good luck.

Will do this.

poppy123456

I'm sorry you have no one to support you through all of this. Usually the Tribunal do give you notice of a hearing date of a couple of weeks at least, so maybe that's an option to you?

Please be mindful of your language on the forum. Some people do get offended by such language.

As for the court case then i really don't know if a letter from your GP will help but you really do need to get that sorted ASAP. Someone else may see this and give you advice on what you could do about that.

You seem to be going through an awful lot with very little, if any support from anyone. Is your GP supportive? Have you thought about having a needs assessment from your local council?

CockneyRebel

If your medical records support you in that you have difficulty in communicating verbally, then the tribunal should take this into account. They will have read your records beforehand and not expect much from you but they will be able to see for themselves the impact that your condition has on you and that is important. It really is in your best interest to attend even if you are hardly able to speak and breakdown. Most tribunals are sympathetic but by nature they are also inquisitorial as their duty is to find the truth. It can happen that having read your records a decision can be made with little input from yourself but it will be in your interest to comply as best you can with their requests