Confused about about the assesses report saying because I drive I can get in and out of a bath — Scope | Disability forum
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Confused about about the assesses report saying because I drive I can get in and out of a bath

Franny
Franny Member Posts: 1 Listener
Could anyone help me with this I have been turned for pip on the fact that I can drive so I'm a able to get in and out of bath I have serve osteoarthritis in both knees and  can't physical get in or out not even to use shower as its over the bath my husband washers helps me he will do my bottom half and I do my top half he helps me Wash my hair I have to sit on a stool at the sink as not able to stand for very long due to serve pain so also not got any points in some other activities can any one help please so stressed

Comments

  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Member Posts: 23,733 Disability Gamechanger
    HI,

    This happens alot because they say that if you can get into a car then you can get into the bath.

    You now have 1 month from the date of the decision to request the mandatory reconsideration (MR) you should put this in writing stating where you think you should have scored those points and your reasons why. Adding 2-3 real life examples of what happened the last time you attempted that activity for each descriptor that applies to you.

    If you haven't got a copy of the assessment report ring DWP to request this today. Avoid mentioning any lies or contradictions that maybe in the report because DWP and Tribunal won't be interested in any of those.

    Most MR decisions remain the same so you'll most likely have to take it to Tribunal. Appearing in person will give you the best chance of a decision in your favour. Waiting times for hearings are huge across most of the country and some are waiting in excess of 1 year.

    This link will help you find what's available in your area for face to face advice. https://advicelocal.uk/

  • Adrian_Scope
    Adrian_Scope Posts: 8,076

    Scope community team

    Welcome to the community @Franny. I'm sorry you feel your report doesn't accurately reflect your daily living. As Poppy said, your next step would be a Mandatory Reconsideration and it might be worth getting some face-to-face support for this. We do also have some information about this here.
    Community Manager
    Scope

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  • Chloe_Scope
    Chloe_Scope Scope Posts: 10,565 Disability Gamechanger
    Welcome to the community @Franny and I'm sorry this isn't the outcome you had hoped for! If you need anything else then please do let us know :)
    Scope

  • sheZZa
    sheZZa Member Posts: 244 Pioneering
    @Franny
    i have several illnesses which are all debilitating. Due to fibromyalgia I have very little strength in my fingers, hands and wrists. I drop saucepans, cannot chop veg or open packets and often burn or cut myself so need assistance when preparing food. I shop online and can use a mobile even though I mostly speak into the microphone to write messages/emails or use a mobile phone pen etc. I was awarded 0 points on these descriptors as because I can very occasionally drive my car (with much pain and difficulty) I had no problems with dexterity. It appears that no one knows the difference between gross and fine motor skills. They use a tick box that suits all. Nobody is treated as an individual.
  • robt1066
    robt1066 Member Posts: 33 Courageous
    Surely, is it not the robotic software that HCP's uuse (called PIPAT) which brings about these ludicrous connections? It would appear that HCP's don't even read the garbage which the software seems to spew out; i.e. do a common sense review of the outcome that the software produces.  
  • April2018mom
    April2018mom Posts: 2,869 Member
    I remember reading our report shocked. Despite me telling them he could not walk and needed assistance with toileting the report failed to mention this at all. My son’s first ever assessment report was also poorly written. You can use this tool at https://www.advicenow.org.uk/guides/how-win-pip-appeal to draft your appeal letter. Good luck and keep us updated! I managed to contest the decision with my son’s amazing social worker. 
  • robt1066
    robt1066 Member Posts: 33 Courageous
    I had read somewhere that you can ask to see what the HCP has written on the same day as a F2F and will be sent to Case Manager. Is this true? 
  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Member Posts: 23,733 Disability Gamechanger
    You can certainly ask to read what's written but don't be surprised if they refuse.
  • robt1066
    robt1066 Member Posts: 33 Courageous
    lol But, surely this is a serious point. If it is a 'right' that a claimant has (i.e to see what's written) then there must be a procedure somewhere that says this -  I don't see it in the fictional pip assessment guide. If it is a 'right' then surely one can ask for it before the assessment. The HCP are i understand mainly self employed and paid on piece work, so in reality they can, or should, be easily over-ruled with a bit of forward planning.  
  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Member Posts: 23,733 Disability Gamechanger
    I believe there was a long thread about this several months ago on here and the HCP's do not have to show you what is written during the assessment.
  • robt1066
    robt1066 Member Posts: 33 Courageous
    I will look into this and establish the legal position. It must happen sometimes otherwise why is it being discussed !? 
  • cristobal
    cristobal Member Posts: 987 Disability Gamechanger
    edited July 2019
    @robt1066 - my HCP refused to show me what she had written.

    Personally I wouldn't worry about what the legal position is - my assessor didn't follow the 'guidelines' at all and I don't believe that Capita/ DWP are concerned about the law either. I complained about this and just got fobbed off.

    Save the legal stuff for tribunal when you will be dealing with someone who knows about the law!
  • pcoventry
    pcoventry Member Posts: 149 Pioneering
    I was SO glad to hear they are considering doing a trial of video recording these assessments. it will stop a lot of the lies and possibly a lot of MR's/ tribunerals also!


  • cristobal
    cristobal Member Posts: 987 Disability Gamechanger
    @pcoventry - will it?

    I recorded mine - with consent - and it was still done very poorly.
  • pcoventry
    pcoventry Member Posts: 149 Pioneering
    @cristobal well you would like to think so - but maybe not! - I am glad you did - did they still try and lie their arses off? 

    Capita/ATOS do many things - ALL of them very poorly :(
  • cristobal
    cristobal Member Posts: 987 Disability Gamechanger
    @pcoventry - not really a case of lying but I did think that the procedure would have been followed, particularly when it was being recorded.

    In brief - 'cos I've posted this before - various 'mistakes', procedure for the examination bit not followed, very poor interview technique in terms of open/closed questions, assumptions, and the assessor answering her own question. Some things were bizarre and just seemed to be made up.

    On the positive side it turned out well in the end, and the majority of claimants have a much better experience...
  • robt1066
    robt1066 Member Posts: 33 Courageous
    It would appear that there are occasions (possibly many) where a HCP has not accurately logged a claimant's conditions and how their condition affects them in respect of specific PIP activities, most likely due to the limitations of the flawed software that HCP's use.

    Say for example a claimant has only 4 daily living activities which are relevant to their circumstances. What would happen if a claimant pro-actively and assertively asks the HCP to confirm they have read in full the details of what has been read in this regard on the PIP form, and discuss that key aspect, as the interpretation thereof is what should justify the number of descriptor points scored. 

    If the HCP has not adequately read the form (that can be determined by some simple questioning) then the claimant can surely pass them a copy of the relevant sections of the form and make sure it is read there and then. 

    Yes, this may be a bit assertive, but if HCP's are not reading (or not adequately reading) what's written on the forms and merely relying on the software then that surely cannot be right . 

    Finally I have a 2 way recording system which I plan to take in to my sister's assessment and record fact that such queries have been raised. 

    Any thoughts? 
  • cristobal
    cristobal Member Posts: 987 Disability Gamechanger
    edited July 2019
    @robt1066 - hopefully this may answer your question..

    I had my F2F at home, and gave the assessor some additional information. It was just under two pages of A4, and the procedure is that the assessor should read this.

    I checked the recording - it was about 10 seconds from when I gave the material to her until she gave it back to me.

    I've only had one assessment but based on that I wouldn't get too pushy. If I'd tried to get my assessor to follow the correct procedure the assessment would still be going now.

    Most assessment seem to be OK. Go with the flow - and if you have problems take it to take it to a tribunal....
  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Member Posts: 23,733 Disability Gamechanger
    robt1066 said:

    Finally I have a 2 way recording system which I plan to take in to my sister's assessment and record fact that such queries have been raised. 

    Any thoughts? 
    Your sister will need to ring the health assessment providers before the day of the assessment to tell them that she'll be recording the assessment. You will need to use the appropriate recording devices such as CD/cassette and record 2 copies, handing 1 copy in at the end of the assessment.
  • robt1066
    robt1066 Member Posts: 33 Courageous
    Yep, thx poppy aware of that. 
  • CockneyRebel
    CockneyRebel Member Posts: 5,217 Disability Gamechanger
    Things to remember
    An assessment is not a medical
    An assessment is the HCP's opinion of your functionality and whether your claim is consistant with the evidence you provide.
    Don't expect an HCP to record your every word
    The final assessment report is often completed at a later time
    Contrary to many forum posts HCP's are human
    Be all you can be, make  every day count. Namaste
  • robt1066
    robt1066 Member Posts: 33 Courageous
    Ok. So could you kindly indicate what are the higher rungs of the evidence chain. Is what is written on the PIP form one of them? 
  • gruber
    gruber Posts: 29 Member
    ilovecats said:

    Basically, Further medical evidence (FME) (letters from medical professionals) trumps pretty much everything. If there is a letter /report describing a claimants functional restriction then a HP cannot really go against it (well they shouldn't do). 

    e.g. I had someone come in once with EUPD, they were perfectly friendly and happy to chat to me and came to the assessment alone and drove themselves, but I had a recent letter from their psychiatrist stating they were a risk to themselves and others and has a history of police involvement and arrest due to violent episodes and self harm. The person was lovely to me and engaged well but I had to score them a 9D and 11F because of the risk of harm the professional stated. 

    So FME is generally at the top. Then it would be medical probability based on condition and treatment for it. Then (in no particular order) mental state examination, musculoskeletal overview, informal observations, social history. So everything that is gathered during the assessment. At the bottom is the functional history which is what is said by the claimant during the interview. The PIP form generally informs the condition history and is not really evidence as such, more a description of what is wrong. Family letters / personal diaries fall into the same category at FH.

    This does not mean that what is written is not important. What it means is that if someone says, 'Everyday I cannot put my socks on due to pain' then in the assessment the person leans to the floor to tie their lace (informal observation - IO) then IO trumps FH. There are a multitude of factors to be taken into account, if the person says 'today is a good day, I only have one good day where I can bend to the floor, I need help on the other days', then this has to be taken into consideration and IO would not trump FH. There are a lot of different factors involved. 

    Again, this is the point of view of HPs doing functional assessments only. 
    Isn't it the case for many that we know what should happen but reality is  something totally different?

    As an example:
    Report from Spinal unit consultant after having had walking tests on their machine in hospital - 'Carried out two tests, both indicated that the maximum distance in walking was between 10 and 15 metres'. HCP reported that I could walk at least 200 metres!

    (a) Assessment report from DWP doctor and notice of decision carried out for a different disability benefit - 'It is clear from the evidence and examination carried out that  'x' has lost considerable mental functionality due to injuries sustained, award to be given is based on a 40% loss of mental capacity'.
    (b) 5 page report from Psychiatrist confirming early onset vascular dementia together with acquired damage to frontal lobe giving way to altered personality with violent outbursts'

    HCP recorded no mental health issues - did not rock in the chair nor did he dribble.


    HCP's do not in many cases accept FE as being relevant it their opinion based on observations is contradictory.
  • Waylay
    Waylay Member Posts: 963 Pioneering
    At my last PIP assessment it was very clear (from the egregious mistakes in the report) that neither the HCP nor the Case Manager bothered to read my form or my FME.
  • pcoventry
    pcoventry Member Posts: 149 Pioneering
    edited July 2019
    Mine said because I could hold on to my driving licence I had no mental health issues at all - and as I put in the tribunal comment - " what, keeping hold of a driving licence is hard and/or requires effort once passed!?"

    Well it's true.. shouldn't form the basis of a reason to give someone 0 in that descriptor. She even went so far as to say that because I was driving before I had my turn that it was evidence to back up what she put! 
  • pcoventry
    pcoventry Member Posts: 149 Pioneering
    Waylay said:
    At my last PIP assessment it was very clear (from the egregious mistakes in the report) that neither the HCP nor the Case Manager bothered to read my form or my FME.
    The case manager is as medically qualified as the milkman - they just go on the report - so if that report said give him a pink fluffy elephant I am sure they would have obliged. 
  • April2018mom
    April2018mom Posts: 2,869 Member
    Hang in there. Do you have a social worker or not? Our amazing social worker helped me successfully fight the decision they made for us. She also read his assessment report. Using her excellent tips and suggestions I typed up a letter to them on my computer. 

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