PIP, DLA and AA
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Tribunal

amariloamarilo Member Posts: 16 Listener
had to move to pip from dla had to appeal and then to tribunal were I was only in 5 mins and told it was adjourned the reason was as follows, Tribunal advised appellant that all points including those awarded are at issue, Another tribunal should be convened with power to remove as well as award point, this decision was made in the interest of justice, I’ve had enough it is so stressful can u advise on what this means 

Replies

  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    edited August 2019
    Hi,

    Yes indeed,  @ilovecats is spot on, it means that your existing award is at risk if you carry on with the Tribunal and you could potentially lose everything you already have. The reason why they adjourned it is for you to decide what you want to do. Carry on and risk it or take what you already have and cancel the Tribunal.

    Face to face advice is urgently needed here from an advice agency near you before you proceed any further. This link will help you find what's local to you for advice. https://advicelocal.uk/

    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • amariloamarilo Member Posts: 16 Listener
    Thankyou for your reply but why are they doing this, I was on dla and full mobility for 8 years and have bad health I’m 67years old why are they doing this 
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    DLA and PIP are different benefits. I can't comment on why they are doing this because i don't know anything about your case.  I'm assuming you have an existing PIP award?

    Also do be aware that because you're over 65 if you don't already have Enhanced mobility then this will be the last time you'll be able to claim it. If you're not awarded by a Tribunal then you won't be able to put in a change of circumstances to try again.

    Do get some face to face advice before proceeding any further with the Tribunal.
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • amariloamarilo Member Posts: 16 Listener
    Thankyou so much, Yes I changed from dla to pip but they did not give me the rate I was receiving or the mobility part which is why I appealed, but I’ve waited over a year for tribunal and attended! then to be adjourned instantly without a question asked, I can’t take anymore I’m not well, I’m baffled to why and feel I’ve had enough, why do they say remove points as well as reward points nothing makes sense I will ask advice but really don’t feel up to doing that I feel destroyed by it all 
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    I'm sorry you're feeling this way. It's a good thing that you've had the warning, if you hadn't and they just went ahead then you could have lost the award you already have. One good thing about a Tribunal is they will always warn you if there's a chance you could lose an award/points.

    It's impossible to give any advice regarding this on an internet forum because no one knows how your conditions affect you or anything about your case. I hope you're able to get the advice you need. Good luck.
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • amariloamarilo Member Posts: 16 Listener
     Thankyou in advance, I might sound stupid but could they also award me points as it says? or is this a warning to give up, how do they expect us to manage and why didn’t they deal with it there and then why another tribunal I’m so confused and posting this hopefully to help others too
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    No problem. It's a warning that you could lose points which may mean you lose everything you already have. Yes, they have said you could be awarded more points but your biggest risk is losing your award because they wouldn't have adjourned it, if there was no risk and you wouldn't have had a warning.
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • amariloamarilo Member Posts: 16 Listener

    Oh I really don't know why, my illness and medical records include everything, I cant do this anymore and I cant go on and risk losing what little I have now, Its making me ill and feel sick thinking about it all, Can you advise how I cancel the next tribunal I really cant take any more of it thankyou again so much 

  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    You will need to contact HMCTS. (Tribunal)
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • amariloamarilo Member Posts: 16 Listener

    Thankyou so so much for your advice, I still don't understand it at all my health problems are extent, I will take your advice and see someone but only to clear my head on the why this as been done to me, Why cant they just say what the problem reason is? so it can be sorted I really cant take anymore and whatever im advised I will still cancel tribunal Im not a strong person for things like this now, I hope anyone else going through this finds this post helpful and please continue to post it helps me so im sure it will help others knowing we not alone Thankyou to ilovecats and for passing it to poppy123456

  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    You're welcome. There could be many reasons why they are thinking of removing some points and as no one here knows anything about your case it's impossible to give any further advice.

    When you go for advice take your bundle with you so that they can take a look.


    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • amariloamarilo Member Posts: 16 Listener
    Thanks poppy123456, I have followed your advice to see someone but i have to wait 2 weeks to see them, I still can’t work out the reason are you sure this is a warning that they thinking of removing some points, and is there a way to find out, Also is there a time limit for me to cancel between the tribunals and keep what I have I really can’t do without what I have I’m so stressed  thanks again 
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    2 weeks is fine. My advice is correct based on what you said above. You said that "Tribunal advised appellant that all points including those awarded are at issue" My advice is correct based on what you said. When you go for advice they will advise you further.
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • amariloamarilo Member Posts: 16 Listener
    Thankyou will keep posts upto date hopefully it will help others in same situations  
  • JurphJurph Member Posts: 346 Pioneering
    Can I ask a question?
    When you appealed to HMCTS, did you just query the mobility part or was there something else you questioned?

    For example, did you say you agreed with the points given for Daily Living and we're only appealing against the Mobility component? Or did you add things about the Daily Living that you weren't happy with?
  • amariloamarilo Member Posts: 16 Listener
    Never got chance to say anything at all at the tribunal not a word notice was on table and as said in first post adjourned it, Sorry ref your question on the appeal I did not agree with certain points awarded and there return answers from assessment they twisted them and did not match my claim form which I showed by way of there dwp return answers not matching mine I was not awarded mobility part and couldn’t understand why as some of my original claim form questions were also twisted around So in short my answers and there return answers were twisted 
  • worried33worried33 Member Posts: 399 Pioneering
    edited August 2019
    They considering to remove your current points.

    UT's have ruled in the past that if this is been considered an adjournment should happen.

    If your existing award is ok I would seriously consider withdrawing the appeal.  If you decide to carry on, make sure you have a prepared case to justify your existing points.

    http://administrativeappeals.decisions.tribunals.gov.uk/aspx/view.aspx?id=2484
    http://administrativeappeals.decisions.tribunals.gov.uk/Aspx/view.aspx?id=4462
  • amariloamarilo Member Posts: 16 Listener
    Thankyou but I really don't’ understand what would make my points at risk I was on dla and mobility which was increased by a tribunal, but had no choice but to change to pip through new rules thought it would be a simple change over but how wrong it’s not fair and so upsetting and I feel ill with it all, seems they don’t listen to the real requirements of individuals, and there needs, I’m taking advice soon but feel as though  I can’t take anymore I need what little I get and can’t keep fighting thanks again for your kindness it’s so strange 
  • worried33worried33 Member Posts: 399 Pioneering
    Also even with the adjournment the UT's ruled that its important for tribunals to not just focus on points removal, if they do only that, then you can probably appeal on error of law if thats the outcome.
  • worried33worried33 Member Posts: 399 Pioneering
    I agree in poppy's suggestion for f2f advice if its an option for you, although if they refuse the advice or its poor advice feel welcome to bring your information here.

    Can I ask what award the DWP gave you?  Also what award are you specifically asking for?

    If you dont know these two answers you really need representation, as going into a tribunal without assurance of the law and that tribunal is considering to remove your points will be very tough.
  • amariloamarilo Member Posts: 16 Listener
    Thank you been through my papers hours and hours can’t see what would cause any of this,  I’m ready to give up, I could understand if there was a reason but I’ve gave them everything maybe I should not have done my appeal on my own but didn’t think it would turn out like this, I simply needed my pip to match my dla and mobility, I showed the reasons that did not match both in daily living and mobility saying I should have had more points as in my claim form and showed differences in my appeal 😢 thanks again 
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    What award do you currently have for PIP?
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • amariloamarilo Member Posts: 16 Listener
  • JurphJurph Member Posts: 346 Pioneering
    amarilo said:
    I showed the reasons that did not match both in daily living and mobility saying I should have had more points as in my claim form and showed differences in my appeal 😢 thanks again 
    I think that because you've question Daily Living and Mobility, the tribunal are going to look at both sections.

    They're warning you in advance that you may lose points if you go ahead with the tribunal. It's a standard legal procedure that you're warned you may lose points. 
  • amariloamarilo Member Posts: 16 Listener
    Thanks it makes sense as I don’t know why, I was merely trying to show my case as a whole and what I believed was correct and didn’t think I would have a problem I’m stupid but  with not feeling upto it!  but I should of had advise, I’ve let myself down the mobility part is the main thing and didn’t even think to treat them
    separately for appeal, I’m thinking just to give up it’s to much for me it appears to be I approached it all wrong but what else could I have done I thought I was doing it correctly i gave them everything including medical history etc, Thinking I’d done all I could to show my reasons it’s so hard to understand thankyou
  • HartleyHartley Posts: 114 Courageous
    Agenda 21 & 31
  • amariloamarilo Member Posts: 16 Listener
    Beyond me sorrry?
  • worried33worried33 Member Posts: 399 Pioneering
    The high rate mobility for PIP under law is different to the high rate mobility for DLA.

    So for a walking distance of 20-50m DLA would award you high rate mobility, in addition you could also get high rate mobility for been "virtually unable to walk".

    Under PIP, 20-50m now on its own only gives enough points for a standard rate mobility award, and there is no descriptor at all for "virtually unable to walk".

    It is important to understand each descriptor, the points system and which descriptor you fit under based on your own judgement, and ideally also under the judgement of someone like your doctor.  Although the latter isnt necessary it just helps.

    So e.g. if you think you can walk 30m, then it would actually mean your new standard award is correct, but under DLA it would give you high rate mobility.  I cannot say if its correct for you or not as I dont know your level of disability.  But I hope I am explaining the system well enough so you have at least a little understanding of how they make decisions.

    Of course its not just enough what your own opinion is, you get assessed by a health care professional who on their own judgement will recommend a specific descriptor to a decision maker at the DWP, this is how they will have come to the current decision.  Having as much evidence as possible to support the information you have provided makes it more likely you will get a decision in your favour.  But also to clearly state specific reasons why you fit into that descriptor as well.  

    At tribunal you will get asked questions related to this so they can try and determine which descriptor(s) to put you under, and you need to be clear on where you stand and how to answer those sot of questions before you go there, or have someone to answer them for you.  So e.g. if you can walk 100m, but only by stopping every 20m for a rest, then you make it absolutely clear you can only manage 20m repeatedly, reliably, and you have to keep stopping.  Give examples of this.  So it might be you use a stroller to use to go to the shop, and approximately every 20m you stop, sit down, have a rest, then carry on.  If you have a gp, consultant, occupational therapist, anyone else with some kind of medical qualifications, to support your case, then get them to provide written evidence.  If you have walking aids and they were supplied by someone like an occupational therapist, make that absolutely clear.

    Good luck and I hope you find someone to represent you.
  • worried33worried33 Member Posts: 399 Pioneering
    edited August 2019
    I was awarded virtually unable to walk at my DLA tribunal ilovecats, and I was told they use that descriptor when they think someone can manage more than 50m but they in clear distress doing so.  

    It is interesting you think that descriptor is the same meaning, I dont consider it that tho, its worded very differently.  It would seem that the DWP perhaps didnt like how it was interpreted by the tribunal and changed the wording for that reason, that the DWP intended for virtually unable to walk as "barely able to stand".  So in that regards I would still consider it more stringent.  As the term "virtually unable to walk" is a lot more open to interpretation.
  • cristobalcristobal Member Posts: 966 Disability Gamechanger
    edited August 2019
    I agree with @ilovecats - if someone is described as 'virtually unable to walk' then they must get 12 points...

    I've not seen the phrase mentioned in the PIP descriptors though.

    As you suggest it is open to interpretation and more or less meaningless as you still have to guess which descriptor is most appropriate...



  • amariloamarilo Member Posts: 16 Listener
    Makes sense but now I’m really confused, I was originally awarded  mobility when on dla by tribunal and awarded me this and it stated unable to walk, But totally ignored by pip claim, so this was why I appealed! so I’m now confused as some comments have said take what I have and cancel tribunal and the adjourned  tribunal was a warning which means or suggests loosing point but it also says award point too, WHICH is it then, throw the towel or try to continue but I really can’t take  anymore I’m so upset with it all, 
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    This is why you need face to face advice. This isn't something an internet forum can advise you on correctly because no one knows anything about how your conditions affect you or anything about your case. When you go for advice take your bundle with you and they will look through and see if there's anything in there that may have gone against you.

    To present your own case you really do need to have some understanding of the PIP descriptors and what they mean because this will help. A poorly presented case could go against you.
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • cristobalcristobal Member Posts: 966 Disability Gamechanger
    @amarilo - I haven't any experience of tribunals as, fortunately, I didn't get that far...

    PIP has replaced DLA for a lot of people and has different criteria. Would you be better looking at what the situation is now, rather than what it was?

    Maybe have a look at the mobility descriptor for PIP and assess (as I believe @worried33 suggested on another post) which applies to you. Then you can make an informed decision...

    Good luck..



  • worried33worried33 Member Posts: 399 Pioneering
    edited August 2019
    cristobal said:
    I agree with @ilovecats - if someone is described as 'virtually unable to walk' then they must get 12 points...

    I've not seen the phrase mentioned in the PIP descriptors though.

    As you suggest it is open to interpretation and more or less meaningless as you still have to guess which descriptor is most appropriate...



    His/Her input is very welcome'd as been an ex assessor its an insight into how the DWP see things, and if thats how the DWP always seen the "virtually unable to walk" descriptor then I think they and the tribunals were miles apart and its no wonder its been reworded.  In the DWP's eyes its still there, in my eye's its gone.  But there is no way the PIP descriptor can be seen in the same manner that I got awarded it as it very clearly states "who can only stand to transfer and only take one step".   I took much more than one step in front of the tribunal.
  • amariloamarilo Member Posts: 16 Listener
    Thankyou again everyone for your comments as helped me get through some of the stress, Looks like I messed it up by going myself without any advice, but didn’t think it was possible to work out like this, I will see what advice I receive but really complicated, life is to short for people to go through this it’s terrible sympathy to all who feel as I do look forward to any more posts or advice 
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