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PIP Tribunal next week

TamsinTamsin Member Posts: 17 Connected
Hi all, I've posted a few times before and people have kindly advised me. My mum has her PIP Tribubal next week. We requested a set aside of a tribunal decision that was reached without my mum present back in october ( they awarded enhanced mobilty and she scored 6 points only for daily living, which is 6 points more than the awful assessor gave her). My question is, could my mum lose the mobility if the tribunal goes badly? She struggles to get her point across and I've been told that even if I go with her I wont be allowed to prompt her or speak for her at all. Does anyone have any tips for getting through the tribunal? She is terrified and doesn't want to go. We have waited over a year for this. Thanks in advance!

Replies

  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    Hi,

    If they plan on lowering her mobility award or taking it away completely then they will warn her before by either writing to her or at the start of the hearing they will warni her and adjourn it so that she can then go away and decide what she wants to do.

    Yes, she will need to speak for herself during the hearing because the panel will want to hear it from her how her conditions affect her. They may ask you at the end if there's anything you want to add but this doesn't always happen.

    I'm sure others will be along shortly to tell you their experiences. Good luck.
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • TamsinTamsin Member Posts: 17 Connected
    Thanks for your reply poppy123456, much appreciated!
  • Chloe_ScopeChloe_Scope Scope Posts: 10,652 Disability Gamechanger
    I wish you the very best of luck with the tribunal @Tamsin! Please do let us know if we can help with anything else. 
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  • Moonblue27Moonblue27 Member Posts: 6 Connected
    Hello I’ve just had my tribunal today. I’ve waited 19 months since my first assessment. I’ve had two assessments but my first one, even though I knew the name of my assessor and had a companion with me, I was accused of not turning up. I was branded a liar even though I produced evidence, passport etc to identify myself. My second assessment I was given the enhanced rate care but standard mobility so lost my car. I appealed. It’s taken this long to be heard. I went through my second assessment throughly and it was littered with inconsistencies from the assessor. When I got my court date I wrote a detailed letter to the courts underlining every mistake they made. The panel of one judge a Doctor and a disability expert were brilliant and believed that I went to my first assessment and apologised for the stress that it would have caused me. The Doctor asked me a few questions then the judge after 15 mins asked me to leave the room. Five mins later the judge himself came in the waiting room and handed me a piece of paper to say they had upheld my appeal and have given me enhanced Motability. I burst out crying. Not just because I had won but because they believed me and they treated me as a decent human being. So please folks never give up. Go through your assessment with a fine tooth comb. Prepare your papers to the courts and take deep breaths and just take your time answering the questions . I have the worse form of Rheumatoid Arthritis and the Doctor could see straight away I wasn’t lying so good luck to all stay strong because appeals can be won xxx 
  • Chloe_ScopeChloe_Scope Scope Posts: 10,652 Disability Gamechanger
    Hi @Moonblue27 and a warm welcome to the community! Thank you for taking the time to share this with us all and I'm so glad that you were listened to at the tribunal, as this can make all the difference.

    Please do let me know if there is anything we can do to help and I look forward to seeing you around. :)
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  • TamsinTamsin Member Posts: 17 Connected
    Thank you both for the encouragement @Moonblue27 and @Chloe_Scope. Well done on your victory @Moonblue27, amazing news!

    Unfortunately my mum is now saying she won't attend, she is in such a state of anxiety. I know she has to attend, what happens if I can't make her?? Thanks 
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    I'm sorry to hear this. If she doesn't attend then they will most likely make a decision without her, like they did before. This may not be a good thing for her because attending in person will always give you the best chance of a decision in your favour. 74% of those that appear in person against 5-8% of those that have a paper based decision, so the difference is a lot.
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • TamsinTamsin Member Posts: 17 Connected
    Thanks @poppy123456 I'll try my best to get her there. Also, will the tribunal know that a paper tribunal occurred without her knowledge, she was then awarded enhanced mobility and that the decision was then set aside when we requested an oral hearing? In her bundle there is no reference to the paper hearing at all.

    Thanks 
  • Chloe_ScopeChloe_Scope Scope Posts: 10,652 Disability Gamechanger
    Hi @Tamsin, I'm sorry to hear this, I understand how difficult it can be to attend the assessments. Especially when you have gone through it before and it needs to be appealed. 

    We'll be here if you need anymore support and I hope it goes okay.

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  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    I'm afraid i don't know the answer to that. If she decides not to attend then she really should contact HMCTS and tell them she won't be attending and her reasons why. A paper based decision may go ahead either way.
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • Moonblue27Moonblue27 Member Posts: 6 Connected
    Please Tamsin Try to get your mum to go I know it’s hard but when they see you face-to-face it makes all the difference the clerk said to me it would take 45 minutes I was in 15 minutes they could clearly see that I was in pain I had rheumatoid arthritis and I  was no shirker the doctor was brilliant she was very sympathetic as was the judge so please encourage your mum to go because at least if she goes you get a decision there and then. They are very very sympathetic and they treat you like human beings and I burst out crying when I came out of that room because I was believed.xxx good luck  xx
  • david235david235 Member Posts: 170 Pioneering

    If they plan on lowering her mobility award or taking it away completely then they will warn her before by either writing to her or at the start of the hearing they will warni her and adjourn it so that she can then go away and decide what she wants to do.

    Ordinarily the rule is as you say - if a Tribunal is minded to reduce or remove an entitlement they will warn the claimant so that the claimant has the opportunity to withdraw their appeal and leave the original decision in place.

    However, in the case of @Tamsin 's mother, an application to set aside was successful. Once the set aside has been granted, the set aside decision is of no effect and must be remade - rule 37(1) of The Tribunal Procedure (First-tier Tribunal) (Social Entitlement Chamber) Rules 2008 (SI 2008/2685) refers.


    Arguably the right way to have proceeded here would have been to apply for the only the decision in relation to the Daily Living component to be set aside, on the basis that it is in the interests of justice for the Tribunal to hear from the claimant who was not present at the previous hearing to establish the correct entitlement to that component. However, the set aside application has already been made and granted - so if the entire findings of the original tribunal have been set aside, it will be as if the original tribunal never happened.
  • TamsinTamsin Member Posts: 17 Connected
    Thank you for all your kind responses, @david235 thanks for the clarification, that is helpful to know. My mum is being represented by CAB and sadly at no point did they suggest that she only request a set aside of the daily living decision otherwise we would have taken that option as now she risks losing her enhanced mobility too.  I assume then that this tribunal will not have any knowledge of the paper hearing decision being set aside? Thanks again for your responses.
  • david235david235 Member Posts: 170 Pioneering
    There is no guarantee that an application to set aside just the Daily Living component decision would have succeeded, @Tamsin . To my mind, such an application would have had to explain carefully why only the Daily Living part of the decision was unjust in the absence of your mother. A careful explanation that the Tribunal had fully considered all relevant matters to Mobility but was denied the opportunity to consider one or more specific opportunities to award your mother additional Daily Living points because the Tribunal did not have the advantage of hearing from her might have succeeded in getting just the Daily Living component part of the decision set aside. This is purely hypothetical now that the entire decision has been set aside.

    My understanding is that the new Tribunal will have no information whatsoever about the earlier Tribunal because the legal position is now as if the earlier Tribunal never happened. Even if the new Tribunal had any information on the earlier Tribunal, it would not be bound by the findings of that Tribunal but is instead legally required to make its own decision by making findings of fact and applying the law to those findings of fact.

    You might be able to obtain additional clarification from HMCTS - though I would concentrate on supporting your mother through her fresh Tribunal. Thank you for supporting her and encouraging her to attend. Those things, together with her being represented, maximise her chance of success - but nothing is guaranteed, I am afraid.
  • kezhendo73kezhendo73 Member Posts: 34 Courageous
    Please tell your mum I had my tribunal on the 27th and it was so different from what I had expected.
     I really didn't want to go my anxiety was through the roof but I'm so glad i went I was treated like person it's not all uptight like you think it would be the worst part was the waiting to by called through.
    I really hope your mum makes it as it think it stands you in better steed.
    Either way i really hope it is successful for her.
  • TamsinTamsin Member Posts: 17 Connected
    Thank you for your replies, my mum has decided she will attend, I'll keep you all posted of the result. 
  • nicolafhurstnicolafhurst Member Posts: 29 Connected
    Ive just had my pip appeal yesterday after a year and half and I’ve won my appeal I’m now high disability and high mobility hopefully yours will go in your favour as well keep us informed and it’s not as scary as I thought it would be they were very nice but it’s a relief it’s over with now for five years at least xx good luck to anyone going through this xx
  • nicolafhurstnicolafhurst Member Posts: 29 Connected
    My parents also came yesterday with me and was asked at the end if they wanted to add anything so I’m sure you will be able to speak as well xx
  • Adrian_ScopeAdrian_Scope Testing team Posts: 7,924

    Scope community team

    Hi @Tamsin, I'm really glad your mum has reconsidered and will attend, please let us know how she gets on.

    Thanks for sharing your experience @nicolafhurst and well done on winning your appeal, it must be a huge relief!
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  • nicolafhurstnicolafhurst Member Posts: 29 Connected
    It really is took so long but so worth the wait xx thank you 
  • Chloe_ScopeChloe_Scope Scope Posts: 10,652 Disability Gamechanger
    That's amazing news @nicolafhurst!

    I hope it goes well for your mum @Tamsin, I'm glad she has decided to attend. :) 
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  • TamsinTamsin Member Posts: 17 Connected
    So pleased you won your appeal @nicolafhurst, thanks for your message! Thanks @Adrian_Scope and @Chloe_Scope, I will keep you posted 🤞
  • nicolafhurstnicolafhurst Member Posts: 29 Connected
    Thank you I’m glad it’s over with and I would say with anyone thinking of going through this definitely don’t hesitate if your in the right cause it’s so worth it in the end xx
  • kezhendo73kezhendo73 Member Posts: 34 Courageous
    @Tamsin so pleased your mum has changed her mind I'm keeping my fingers crossed for her 

    @nicolafhurst great new congratulations on your win 
    I too won my award back at enhanced for both it was so worth the wait 😊
  • Moonblue27Moonblue27 Member Posts: 6 Connected
    The new tribunal will have all the information in front of them and rightly so as the lies that the assessor put in my assessment was plain to see. And it’s very very rare they reduce your points and money . Your mum will be fine. I waited 19 months to have my day in court and my say but in the end the judge and doctor more or less threw it out. They are impartial and very very fair x 
  • nicolafhurstnicolafhurst Member Posts: 29 Connected
    That’s just how mine was they had made there decision before I went into the room the assesor lied in so much of mine it was like they were talking about another person and got me mixed up but she even said my hair looked clean and my clothes were too and I could stoke my little dog so there for I can’t be that bad but talking to me I thought it had sailed through she even got emotional in my assessment when asking what I’ve been like from the beginning to then so I would say to anyone even if u got medium rate if u think your point s are wrong take it further cause u never now and get written letter from your doctor or nurse that’s what I did it all helps good luck again to your mum I’m sure she will be fine xxx
  • Moonblue27Moonblue27 Member Posts: 6 Connected
    79% of Appeals are now being won xxxx 
  • TamsinTamsin Member Posts: 17 Connected
    Hi all, just thought I'd update you. The tribunal lasted around 20 minutes and then they decided to adjourn it because they didn't have enough medical records. As I feared my mum, who has real issues retaining information, crumbled under their questioning and said she 'didnt know' in answer to some of their questions about medical information. It was a disaster. She's now in an even worse state than before and wants to give up. We will request the medical records this week and send them once we have them, but the chances of her agreeing to attend another tribunal after today's disaster are slim to none.

    Thanks all for your advice and support!
  • nicolafhurstnicolafhurst Member Posts: 29 Connected
    Awww bless her tell to try not to give up she will get there xx
  • Chloe_ScopeChloe_Scope Scope Posts: 10,652 Disability Gamechanger
    Hi @Tamsin and thank you for updating us. I'm so sorry the tribunal didn't go to plan and I understand how difficult it was for your mum to be there in the first place. She should be really proud of what she has achieved today and I appreciate the strain it must be having on you both.

    I really hope it doesn't take too long for another date and that your mum is able to attend. If there is anything we can do to help then please do let us know!
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  • Moonblue27Moonblue27 Member Posts: 6 Connected
    Oh im so so sorry . Let’s hope the medical records convince them next time. They went off my records and my drug regime. Please keep strong it’s worth the fight believe me . If you need any help let me know xx 
  • david235david235 Member Posts: 170 Pioneering
    @Tamsin - I'm so sorry the reconvened tribunal was such a difficult experience.

    Adjourning for medical evidence is quite possibly an indication that they feel there is some sort of case to explore - if they felt they had enough information to made an adverse decision then the tribunal would have done ahead and done so. It is in your mother's interests that the ultimate decision is properly grounded in the evidence and has heard fully from all involved, ideally including your mother.


    I realise that the tribunal is a difficult and distressing experience for her and that you have mentioned she is anxious. The Tribunal has the job of trying to obtain additional evidence and test the evidence before it by questioning those present, ideally including the claimant. You mentioned also that she has real issues retaining information, implying some sort of memory problem. The questions that arise in my mind are whether the tribunal is fully aware of any particular challenges (beyond some level of understandable anxiety) that your mother faces in giving a full account of her needs and whether they have considered whether the interests of justice require them to listen closely to you as someone familiar with your mother's issues who is not affected by any memory problems?

    I'm going to kick those thoughts up in the air and let others who are more familiar with current tribunal practice and/or relevant case law than I am make any helpful suggestions they can.
  • Moonblue27Moonblue27 Member Posts: 6 Connected
    I agree with David235 that they must think there is more to look at. My panel, especially the Doctor, looked at my medication and more or less went off that. The questions she asked were to ascertain my walking ability as the assessor wrote I parked 4 mins from my home. It was full of inconsistencies from them, and the panel  were very annoyed at the DWP. Please do not give up hope. Gather as much evidence as you can and you speak for your Mum if your mum finds it hard . 

  • TamsinTamsin Member Posts: 17 Connected
    Hi all, I just wanted to update you as you were all so kind In responding to me. My mum had her tribunal today After it was adjourned in Septermber. She won and was given enhanced rate for both mobility and care. We are all so relieved that its over.  Thank you all for your support. 
  • CressidaCressida Member Posts: 770 Pioneering
    @Tamsin. Great news! Congratulations it must be a huge weight off your mind.
  • Chloe_ScopeChloe_Scope Scope Posts: 10,652 Disability Gamechanger
    That's amazing news @Tamsin! Congratulations to your mum. I hope you are able to relax now. :)
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  • Adrian_ScopeAdrian_Scope Testing team Posts: 7,924

    Scope community team

    That's excellent news @Tamsin and must be a huge relief to you and your mum. Thank you for coming back to let us know how you got on! :)
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