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Dressing and undressing

rigetriget Member Posts: 29 Listener
Hi, My assessor gave me 0pts for dressing even though I have a prosthetic leg and need an aid to dress/stand, she mentioned I use a grabber to put my trousers on, and acknowledged I need an aid to stand/sit but it seems because I can put diesel in my car and put the seat/belt on I can dress ok.

I'm waiting for the decision to come and have been thinking about how I get dressed, I take it getting dressed will include all clothes and as I have to put underwear on before my prostheses then the time taken must include the time to put my leg on, as I have no stump and sit in my leg it can take some time to put on, I'm sure getting dressed would take more than twice the time than someone without my disability so should it be reasonable to go for 8pts as I can't dress in a timely manner?

Replies

  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    edited August 2019
    Hi,

    It will only be possible to score 8 points here if you couldn't dress/undress at all. As it's your lower body then it will be 2 points for either descriptor B/C or D because they all score 2 points. It will depend if you use an aid or need assistance but they all score the same points.
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • rigetriget Member Posts: 29 Listener
    Hi, yes I see they score 2pts but does the wording "Reliably, In a timely fashion, repeatedly and safely" relate to all activities?


    So someone who can walk 20metres would not get 12pts but if they couldn't do it in a timely fashion they would be deemed not able to do it and score the 12pts.


    Yes I can dress with an aid and score 2pts, but if I can't do it in a timely fashion then surely I be deemed not able to do it and score 8pts.
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    edited August 2019
    Reliably, regularly apply yes but if you can dress your top half of your body then you won't score 8 points. If you look at the descriptors for this activity then you'll see that descriptor B is 2 points for needing an aid, B is 2 points for needing assistance and D is 2 points for assistance for the lower body. E is 4 points for assistance for the upper body and F is 8 points if you can't do it at all.

    If you use and aid for your lower body and you've already scored 2 points then this is correct, you won't be able to score anymore points for this activity because you can dress using an aid.




    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • cristobalcristobal Member Posts: 966 Disability Gamechanger
    edited August 2019
    @riget - you are correct about the reliability criteria..

    If it takes you more than twice as long as a person without your condition then I don't believe that this is 'reliable' - although it's difficult to say for certain because there isn't really as standard time for dressing, as far as I know.

    I doubt that you would be able to count the time taken to fit your prosthesis (since non-disabled persons don't do this) - only the time taken to actually dress.

    Just my opinion - maybe you could get more specialist advice face to face?
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    @ilovecats any advice here please?
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • cristobalcristobal Member Posts: 966 Disability Gamechanger
    @riget @poppy123456 - logically, I suppose you should work out the total time for dressing and take of the time taken to fit the prosthesis...

    But what sounds logical and what's correct might be two different things!
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    The time it takes to fit the prosthesis, is not considered for this activity.
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • rigetriget Member Posts: 29 Listener
    As I wear clothes under and over my prostheses surely putting it on has to be part of getting dressed, 


    A quote from poppy123456's link:

    2.2 Reliability

    2.2.1 Central to the application of all the activities within the PIP assessment is a consideration of the manner in which they are undertaken. For a descriptor to be able to apply to a claimant, the claimant must be able to reliably complete the activity as described in the descriptor.

    2.2.2 Considering reliability involves looking at whether the claimant can complete the activity as described:

    • safely – in a manner unlikely to cause harm to themselves or to another person, either during or after completion of the activity

    • to an acceptable standard

    • repeatedly – able to repeat the activity as often as is reasonably required

    • in a reasonable time period – no more than twice as long as the maximum period that a non-disabled person would normally take to complete that activity

    2.2.3 This applies to every activity within the assessment. If an individual cannot reliably complete an activity in the way described in a descriptor then they should be considered unable to complete it at that level and a different descriptor selected. For example when a claimant is only able to complete an activity safely when supervised, the appropriate descriptor which refers to supervision should be awarded.


    So a reasonably time period should apply to all activities.

  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    The time taken to put on your prostheses is not counted for this activity.
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • rigetriget Member Posts: 29 Listener
    Yes I've seen your post while I was posting, but unlike a "normal" prostheses where it would be possible to dress/undress while wearing it, for me it's impossible.
  • cristobalcristobal Member Posts: 966 Disability Gamechanger
    edited August 2019
    @riget

    If you look at the examples given there may well be a clue as to how the DWP interpret the 'reasonable time' factor i.e. they don't talk about 'twice as long' but 'taking all morning' to cook breakfast and needing 2 hours to wash and dress.

    It doesn't sound like they would consider someone who takes, for example, fifteen minutes to dress instead of five minutes, as not being able to dress 'reliably'

    Doesn't mean that they are right, of course!

    Good luck - will you let us know how you get on please?

    Examples:-
    • an individual who becomes breathless and exhausted whilst washing and dressing, and needs 2 hours to complete these tasks

    • an individual who is physically capable of preparing a meal but whose need for formalised ritual means they take all morning to prepare breakfast

    • someone who, as a result of their health condition, has obsessive ideas around cleanliness and takes considerably prolonged periods of time to complete activities due to repetitive and extended hand washing



  • worried33worried33 Member Posts: 399 Pioneering
    edited August 2019
    sadly they are inconsistent, I told my assessor I only needed to use my grabber occasionally, made it clear was a minority of the time and he gave me the descriptor.

    From what you have described 0 points seems ridiculous and I wish you the best of luck in challenging it.

    Note as cristobal has said the DWP (And their AP's) will have their own interpretation of the law and set their guidelines as such, but the DWP as proven time and time again are often not compliant with the law.

    The way I see it (and I can ask someone I know who has a ton of experience in pip appeals if you want), that if you need to attach or detach something to get dressed then that is part of getting dressed, if you need to use an aid when getting dressed or undressed at least half of the time, then the descriptor should apply.  I see it as no different to say e.g. putting a belt on if that belt is needed to hold your trousers up.

    Based on what you have described it doesnt sound like you should get the 8 points descriptor, as that would be if you are incapable of dressing/undressing yourself most of the time, but if you could only do this in a dangerous manner, or taking a long time, or unable to do it repeatedly you could perhaps make a case for the 8 points.  
  • cristobalcristobal Member Posts: 966 Disability Gamechanger
    edited August 2019
    @worried33 @riget -  the DWP don't seem rush to consider someone who is only able to carry out a task slowly as not being able to do it "reliably" - you can understand this I suppose...

    I've just noticed that the DWP's example above about "washing and dressing" isn't a good one - since they're two separate things, and there isn't a descriptor for 'washing'!

    Apart from that it's fine...
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    @cristobal There is a descriptor for washing, it's activity 4, it's washing and bathing.
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • cristobalcristobal Member Posts: 966 Disability Gamechanger
    @poppy123456 - thanks for the correction...I'd always considered this to be getting in and out of the bath & shower rather than actually washing...you are correct...

    @riget & DWP -- please accept my apologies for confusing the issue!

    PS My point still stands though - before I was ill I guess I could dress & wash (excluding having a shave as this doesn't count) in about 10 minutes.

    If I said that I can't do this 'reliably' as it now takes me 20 minutes I imagine that everyone at DWP would roll around laughing - but it is actually within their guidelines...
  • worried33worried33 Member Posts: 399 Pioneering
    cristobal, I would think the time taken would be under this? "in a reasonable time period"

    But still the DWP guidelines I dont consider "law", but it means if their guidelines dont agree its appeal time :(
  • cristobalcristobal Member Posts: 966 Disability Gamechanger
    @worried33 - I agree.

    If it takes me twenty minutes to do something I previously could do in less than ten then as far as I'm concerned it's not in a reasonable time period and therefore not 'reliable'...seems to be quite clear.

    However it's useful to know that the DWP see this differently - even if it doesn't comply with their own guidelines.

    As I mentioned above this is probably why their examples seem to give extreme examples such as "taking all morning to prepare breakfast" rather than "taking ten minutes to make beans and sausage on toast instead of five.."


  • rigetriget Member Posts: 29 Listener
    Thanks for the replies, I'll have to wait for the dm letter but if he is as poor as the assessor and only gives me 6pts for care I'll be going for 12 or more in the mr and appeal, I believe I should have 8pts and that's what I think I deserve but if they try to put me down I'll go for the highest possible, also I'll go for points in taking nutrition as I can't chew and swallow reliably due to the time it takes me to eat a meal.
  • cristobalcristobal Member Posts: 966 Disability Gamechanger
    @riget - good luck; let us all know!
  • rigetriget Member Posts: 29 Listener
    ilovecats said:
    Just my 2 cents . . . 

    A single lower limb amputee (with no other medical / disability issues) would at most score a B for Activity 6. 

    Sitting to dress is not generally considered an aid however if someone has a condition that causes them to need to lie on a bed because they cannot stand to dress then 2 point could be awarded because they would need a prosthetic to stand.

    Unfortunately it’s a bit hit and miss. I would always award the 2 points, it’s not my money! 

    Others assessors take the view that someone is able to safely balance on one leg or because they manage to stress reliably when seated then don’t give it. I cannot remember if there is specific guidance.

    For mobility you only have to have one biological foot to satisfy the A-E criteria so some assessors may think this also applies for dressing.
    You seem to see every amputee the same whereas there are many different levels of amputation.
    You cannot score C for mobility if you have one foot, also I can't score C or D.
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    edited August 2019
    Why can't you score C or D? Not that it makes any difference because b/c and d score the same for activity 6.
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • rigetriget Member Posts: 29 Listener
    Why can't you score C or D? Not that it makes any difference because b/c and d score the same.
    We're talking moving around now.
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    Ah right, thanks. For the mobility what @ilovecats said is correct, you only have to stand with one biological foot on the ground.
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • rigetriget Member Posts: 29 Listener
    No she was not correct for the reasons I said above. 
  • rigetriget Member Posts: 29 Listener
    ilovecats said:
    riget said:
    No she was not correct for the reasons I said above. 
    She is definitely correct. You cannot score a C you are right 
    So you are definitly not correct.

    I could not score D, why do you think it's worded different from the others? 
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    edited August 2019
    D isn't worded any different. What makes you think it's worded differently?

    Descriptor A (0 points): Can stand and then move more than 200 metres, either aided or unaided

    Descriptor B (4 points): Can stand and then move more than 50 metres but no more than 200 metres, either aided or unaided

    Descriptor C (8 points): Can stand and then move unaided more than 20 metres but no more than 50 metres

    Within the assessment criteria, the ability to perform an activity ‘unaided’ means without either the use of aids or appliances; or help from another person.

    For example, this would include people who can stand and move more than 20 metres but no further than 50 metres, without needing to rely on an aid or appliance such as a walking stick, or help from another person.

    Descriptor D (10 points): Can stand and then move using an aid or appliance more than 20 metres but no more than 50 metres

    Descriptor E (12 points): Can stand and then move more than 1 metre but no more than 20 metres, either aided or unaided

    Descriptor F (12 points): Cannot, either aided or unaided:
    i. stand; or
    ii. move more than 1 metre


    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • rigetriget Member Posts: 29 Listener
    OMG 
    either aided or unaided
    using an aid or appliance

  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    a prosthesis is considered an appliance, so @ilovecats is correct.
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • rigetriget Member Posts: 29 Listener
    I don't need to understand anything, 


    lovecats is incorrect.
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    Why is ilovecats incorrect?
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger

    This activity should be judged in relation to a type of surface normally expected out of doors, such as pavements on the flat and includes the consideration of kerbs.

    Standing’ means to stand upright with at least one biological foot on the ground or without suitable aids and appliances (note – a prosthesis is considered an appliance, so a claimant with a unilateral prosthetic leg may be able to stand, whereas a bilateral lower limb amputee would be unable to stand under this definition).

    ‘Stand and then move’ requires an individual to stand and then move independently while remaining standing. It does not include a claimant who stands and then transfers into a wheelchair or similar device. Individuals who require a wheelchair or similar device to move a distance should not be considered able to stand and move that distance.


    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • rigetriget Member Posts: 29 Listener
    Why do you go from one post to another?

    lovecats said you only need one leg to score A-E but you can't score C that she/he later admitted but still didn't believe she/he was incorrect. 
  • rigetriget Member Posts: 29 Listener
    ilovecats said:
    C does not apply to you. All the others do. A, B, D & E could. 

    I assure you I know the criteria and how to apply it very well.
    So why is D worded differently?
  • rigetriget Member Posts: 29 Listener
    Haha only D has that phrase.
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    edited August 2019
    No it doesn't C is the only one that doesn't include it. Please read what it says in my above post in bold.... I'll copy it here again for you.

    Within the assessment criteria, the ability to perform an activity ‘unaided’ means without either the use of aids or appliances; or help from another person.

    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • rigetriget Member Posts: 29 Listener
    poppy you need to read it again, you don't seem able to grasp the wording.

    You don't need to link to anything I can read.
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    I fully understand the PIP descriptors thanks. Having given you all the advice available, i'm also out.
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • rigetriget Member Posts: 29 Listener
    So with all your knowledge neither can say why D is worded differently.

  • CressidaCressida Member Posts: 779 Pioneering
    @riget why are you so rude to people trying to help you?
  • Sam_AlumniSam_Alumni Scope alumni Posts: 7,731 Disability Gamechanger

    We want the community to be a safe and supportive place. Please make sure your messages respect other users’ views and suggestions, even if you do not agree with them.

    Take care to present your views tactfully and remember that humour may be misinterpreted.


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  • worried33worried33 Member Posts: 399 Pioneering
    edited August 2019
    ilovecats said:
    worried33 said:
    sadly they are inconsistent, I told my assessor I only needed to use my grabber occasionally, made it clear was a minority of the time and he gave me the descriptor.

    Sometimes the assessor may feel you deserve a certain level of award but you might be 2 points short so they find a way to give the points to you. Some of us are nice!
    yep is what I thought as well and I am grateful he did that.

    He probably also appreciated my honesty.
  • worried33worried33 Member Posts: 399 Pioneering
    edited August 2019
    riget said:
    So with all your knowledge neither can say why D is worded differently.

    Ilovecat said they are applicable to you because they assess mobility "with" aids on descriptors A,B,D,E,F
    Whilst C is only relevant when assessing unaided.

    I assume based on her reply that AP's are considering appliances like aids for those descriptors.  

    However I see what you are trying to say, that descriptor D is the only one that specifically mentions appliances, the others only mention the word aid.

    Ilovecats is an ex assessor and poppy seems to know a lot about how the DWP make decisions, so both are probably right in knowing how the DWP and assessors approach these descriptors.  I dont necessarily agree with them on what I think is law, but I listen to both of them when it comes to learning how the DWP approach these things, especially ilovecats.  Poppy's advice is a big reason I think I got 8 points on my AP report.   As it enabled me to focus on information relevant to the descriptors during my assessment and my form.

    Of course DWP guidelines are not always law compliant, but I have absolutely no idea whether the law does include appliances in those descriptors (wording oversight) or if the DWP are getting it wrong.   Not looked at any tribunal cases for this.
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