PIP tribunal not awarded PIP. — Scope | Disability forum
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PIP tribunal not awarded PIP.

rbz Member Posts: 96 Courageous
Recently received letter from Appeal Tribunal. Unfortunately they refused my appeal. I claimed DLA middle rate living and lower rate mobility, so I expected similar PIP award (standard daily living and standard mobility.
At this moment awaiting for statement of reasons for the decision. I suspect that my main problem:  I'm working person - so very hard to claim PIP if person working full time.
Second problem - my PIP Assessment report contains errors and missing many information. I think during Tribunal hearing panel members likely more trust into PIP Assessment report, but not into my medical records and what I talking.
Regarding PIP assessment - I contacted Assessment company CAPITA regarding Assessment report content, but received answer:
Assessor can't remind my assessment details, assessor very busy during day, questions during assessment approved by DWP, assessment report not designed to be a verbatim record of the assessment and etc.
Regarding this matter contacted Director of Pensions, Disability and Benefit Security, but also received standard response like they happy with Capita response. They appreciate that I am unhappy that my full medical file was not obtained by the PIP Centre and referred to Capita for consideration as part of the assessment process. There not enough evidence for further investigation.
I have to plans contact Independent Case Examiner, but think again receive standard answer like Capita can't remember my assessment.
I have a few questions:
If I can walk over 200 metres can I claim PIP Daily Living part? My leg pains cause problems with some activities. I understand that I can't claim Mobility part.
Regarding Independent Case Examiner - any suggestions how to write good letter? There problem with PIP Assessment report content.
After I receive statement of reasons for the decision from Appeals Service I must again contact Appeal Service and request permission to contact Upper tribunal ( i think I find first tribunal errors ).
When I ask for permission I must just  write letter with short notes, or there need write full information and later same letter send to Upper Tribunal?
Thank you for help.


  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Member Posts: 31,258 Disability Gamechanger

    DLA and PIP are 2 completely different benefits. Claiming DLA doesn't mean you're entitled to PIP. PIP is about how your conditions affect your ability to carry out daily activity based on the PIP descriptors. People do work and claim PIP yes but if the work you do goes against the reasons for your claim then this can go against you.

    The Tribunal are totally independent to DWP and the health assessment providers. A poorly presented case can go against you and having some understanding of the PIP descriptors, what they mean and the criteria helps.

    When you claim PIP you will be assessed for both parts but yes it's certainly possible to be awarded daily living without the mobility part, lots of people do.

    Unless an error in law is found then you won't be able to take this any further.

    Starting a new claim using the same evidence you previously used will very likely see another refusal. I'm assuming you sent evidence to support your claim? Did you appear in person at your hearing?

    This link will help you have more of an understanding of the PIP descriptors and what they mean.

  • rbz
    rbz Member Posts: 96 Courageous
    During tribunal hearing panel members always pointed that during PIP assessment I not complaining about problems with some activities and PIP assessment report not contain information about what I talking during tribunal hearing.
    One panel member asked me why I not tell to GP if I have problems with food preparation. I told that GP appointment last just 10 minutes and I don't have enough time to talk with my GP about daily living problems as leg pains cause problems not only with food preparation, but also with dressing/undressing my lower body and wash my lower body. So during GP appointment no time to discuss about these problems.
    I just report about pain in my legs.
    MRI scan results shows some problems in spine lumbar.
    GP medical records show that I complained with worsen health conditions after I started work.
    Also I have both ears moderate to severe hearing loss, but not awarded any points with washing and bathe even I have safety problems during this activity.
    At this moment I awaiting for statement from Appeals tribunal and check why they likely ignored my medical records and concentrated on wrong PIP assessment report.
    Also I had new hearing test this week. My hearing again deteriorated little bit if compare with last test few years ago. Received updated hearing aid.
    Awaiting new appointment for physiotherapy.
    I asked my GP for new MRI scan. GP refused do that because "no point of MRI scan", but I told that I need more medical evidence for PIP claim.
    I already started preparation for new PIP claim if have any problems with Upper tribunal.
    Very sad that PIP not based on person health conditions.
    I think medical professionals at Capita and DWP must know how some medical conditions affect to the daily living or mobility.
    But everything depends how person represent problems during assessment or tribunal hearing and what information assessor include and what information excludes from assessment report.
    Capita confirmed that they can write just part information. In my case everywhere on report "Working", "Working full time", "Never sick from work" and etc. But excludes any information that can help understand my daily living problems.
    On report also everywhere "Not enough evidence" even they not obtained my medical records before assessment.
    Appeals tribunal independent, but this not mean that process absolutely fair.
    My first hearing was adjourned, because not enough time left as previous hearings take extra time.
    During my hearing worked another panel members and suddenly stopped after 45 minutes as next person awaited for hearing.
    During hearing I used my notes and panel members asked me leave these notes as they want see more information before decision.
    During Tribunal hearing I asked help from our local community CAB member to repeat questions as panel members located within distance where I can't properly hear questions.
    I see advisor just once before hearing and advisor know nothing about my health conditions - just read wrong PIP assessment report. And quick see my medical records before tribunal hearing.

  • david235
    david235 Member Posts: 170 Pioneering
    @rbz - As @poppy123456 says, DLA and PIP are different benefits. They cover the same broad areas, but DLA uses a limited number of rather abstract legal tests, whereas PIP is a points-based consideration of your functional impairment when carrying out a set of activities laid down in law. PIP entitlement can be different than DLA entitlement for the same person.

    Your posts touch on a range of issues, but skirts the key one - how have you shown that you more likely than not meet the standard for the award of sufficient points-bearing descriptors to be awarded one or both PIP components?

    You can attack the quality of the assessment report and what you perceive as its errors through all the available avenues of challenge, but that will not get you PIP. You can complain right to the Independent Case Examiner (you have to go through DWP's complaints process first before you can go to the ICE), but that will not change your entitlement to benefit. There are undoubtedly some poor quality assessment reports out there, riddled with inconsistency and based on a poor use of the available evidence. However, my feeling is that most disputes with reports are a combination of difference in opinion about the level of functional impairment and a claimant who struggled to give a clear account of the problems their disabilities and health problems create with carrying out the activities.

    If your assessment was not recorded then it is your word against the assessor. The starting position is that the assessor is an independent registered medical professional bound by the rules of their registration who has been trained to conduct PIP assessments. If you have got all the way to Tribunal, it is likely that your assessment took place months or even years ago, so it is unsurprising that the staff member(s) involved have no recollection of your case.

    It is uncommon for problems with entitlement to PIP to be primarily a dispute about medical facts. A successful claim often needs little in the way of medical evidence - my claim had three A4 sides of consultant's letters (including letterheads and signature blocks) and no other supporting evidence. The key letter was a one side report from my then primary consultant which confirmed the (non-)diagnosis, my key symptoms, current treatment, length of time I had been ill, key functional issues and gave an opinion of no recovery or improvement to be expected. Beyond that, it was my job to explain how my complex and multi-factorial health issues affected my ability to perform the activities.

    I can understand many people saying "with my severe <condition>, it stands to reason that I cannot do any of the activities indicated". However, neither the assessor nor the Decision Maker can make your case for you. You can take ten people with the same condition at a similar severity of symptoms and the functional impairments will likely be rather different. Moreover, there is often a significant difference in the points scored for "I have to be helped to do this" and "An aid or adaptation is sufficient for me to do this". Unless you explain why no aid or adaptation can overcome your problems with the activity and human help is required, you might not score the higher number of points for needing human help.

    As such, it is unsurprising that Capita did not obtain your medical records. They will not trawl through your medical records to make your case for you, and I would think it is rare for them to speculate on functional impairment based solely on medical records.

    So far as the Tribunal goes, @poppy123456 is right to point out that you can only appeal further if the First-tier Tribunal has made an error of law. Identifying an error of law really requires a suitably qualified person to scrutinise the Statement of Reasons and the case bundle. However, drawing a plausible conclusion on a question of fact (such as how much help you need with washing and dressing) based on the evidence before the Tribunal is a dispute over a finding of fact that is unlikely also to be an error of law. In any event, the Upper Tribunal has no power to hear evidence.

    With all the problems you identify, it may well be that your best option is to accept the First-tier Tribunal's findings as the last word on that claim attempt and start a fresh PIP claim based on a clear description of your problems backed by appropriate medical evidence. I urge you to work with a local advice service to identify the best way ahead and correct any defects in your claim.

    To be clear, you are most unlikely to be awarded PIP by putting up the negative case as to why the assessment report and DWP's conclusions are wrong. You need to put up the positive case as to why you more likely than not should be awarded points-scoring descriptors based on your functional impairment on the majority of days.

    Working full-time is not fatal to a claim for PIP; there are people who work full-time but need a high level of support commensurate with an award of PIP. However, full-time work creates what lawyers call a rebuttable presumption in some areas. For example, if you say you are working full-time and are never late or absent from work, you have created a rebuttable presumption that fatigue does not significantly impair your abilities to carry out the PIP activities. However, it would be open to you to say that you find showering especially difficult, give a clear description of how fatigue affects your ability to shower and do your best to resolve the potential inconsistency by explaining why fatigue causes you so many challenges showering but not with travelling to work or doing your job.

  • rbz
    rbz Member Posts: 96 Courageous
    There problem that our CAB advisor can't help to prepare for new PIP claim or Appeal Tribunal for people with hidden disability.
    When I meet with advisor before Tribunal - he doesn't let explain my problems and not give any advise how talk during hearing. What I must point and what information is pointless.
  • rbz
    rbz Member Posts: 96 Courageous
    Regarding complaint against Capita I know that there no change in PIP claim decision.
    But I want get information why report are wrong and contains errors.
  • rbz
    rbz Member Posts: 96 Courageous
    CAB advisor also offers new PIP claim.
    Advisor not talking about request for decision statement from Appeals tribunal or contact to upper tribunal even there errors in law during Tribunal hearing.
    But my wife works part time and she help me with some activities. So I lose around £200 every week.
    Waiting lists on hospital - very huge.
    I awaited 7 month for hearing test.
    At this moment awaiting for Physiotherapy (contacted February 2019) also awaiting for MRI scan ( contacted May 2019).
    So build fresh medical records take ages.
    There crazy PIP system.

    My colleague leaves job because can't claim PIP.
    After leaving job he was awarded Enhanced Living and Enhanced Mobility even health conditions not changed.
  • david235
    david235 Member Posts: 170 Pioneering
    @rbz - Your best option is probably to make a new claim for PIP no matter what, as there are very long waits for the Upper Tribunal even if you can appeal there. If you make a new claim, that deals with the situation from the date of the new claim forwards and any appeal to the Upper Tribunal deals only with the situation up to the date of the new claim. If you do not make a new claim, you might have to wait a year for the Upper Tribunal to make a decision - and if it refuses your appeal then you will get no PIP for that period.

    You still seem focused primarily on the supposed lack of medical evidence. Maybe there are areas where more medical evidence would help, but the most important thing is your explanation of the problems you face with the PIP activities and the help you need from other people.

    Not all advisors are qualified and experienced enough to handle Upper Tribunal casework.
  • rbz
    rbz Member Posts: 96 Courageous
    But anyway I must get some extra new records into my medical records.
    Under old system I contacted my GP two to four times per year as my GP can't sort my problems. Just received prescription for pain relief tablets.
    Normally I obtained these tablets and pain relief cream from supermarket.
    I not see any point to contact GP every month.
    Also I obtained batteries for hearing aid from eBay (for around £1 per pack) instead contact ENT for free batteries. Because car parking fee beside hospital similar like batteries from eBay.
    So I visited ENT every 3 years instead contact every 2 months for free batteries.
    Also my legs sore when walking from car parking to ENT.

  • rbz
    rbz Member Posts: 96 Courageous
    Also want ask. Anyone know where I can obtain not expensive audio recorder suitable for PIP assessment recording.
    I want to prevent Capita assessor again make false PIP assessment report.
    In case if place new PIP claim.
  • Adrian_Scope
    Adrian_Scope Posts: 8,578 Scope online community team
    Hi @rbz, I've seen this one recommended a few times, but the problem is you'd need two as you need two identical copies when recording the assessments. https://www.argos.co.uk/product/5740413
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  • rbz
    rbz Member Posts: 96 Courageous
    edited September 2019
    Can I use 2 same devices, or better look for single unit?
    Also anything I must know before recording:
    Like I must unpack cassette and insert into recorder when assessor see all process?
    Can I ask assessor write note and supply copy with confirmation that he see media unpacking, inserting and etc. To prevent further problems like he not see how media was unpacked and inserted...
    This is because I not believe anymore in fair PIP assessment process.
  • Adrian_Scope
    Adrian_Scope Posts: 8,578 Scope online community team
    Hi @rbz, there are some rules in place about recording assessments, I've copied them below from here

    Sessions can be recorded. There are a few important points to note if you wish to do so:

    • You will need to give us 3 working days notice before your assessment.
    • We will ask you to sign a recording agreement. This tells you how you can later use the recording, and helps us keep your details confidential.
    • You will need to use your own recording equipment. To protect all parties, DWP restricts approved devices to those that produce two identical recordings simultaneously. Please note that this does not include laptops, tablets, smartphones or MP3 players.

    For more information on recording your assessment, please refer to the DWP policy on page 31 of the PIP Assessment Guide, or contact our Customer Service Centre. You’ll find the telephone number on your appointment letter or on our Contact Us page.

    On the PIP Assessment Guide it says:

    The claimant must inform the AP in advance that they wish to audio record their consultation. This is to allow the AP to ensure that the HP scheduled to carry out the consultation is willing to be recorded. If the HP is unwilling to be audio recorded, an alternative appointment should be made with an HP who is willing. 

    The claimant must be able to provide a complete and accurate copy of the audio recording to the HP at the end of the consultation. For this 31 reason, certain devices that are capable of editing, real-time streaming or video recording the session are not approved. Non-approved devices include (but are not limited to) PCs, tablets, smart phones, MP3 players, smart watches, and devices that are not capable of providing a verifiable media copy that can be easily checked during the assessment. Acceptable formats for such recordings are restricted to CD and audio cassette only 

    The claimant must sign a consent form in which they agree to provide a copy of the audio recording and not use the audio recording for unlawful purposes.

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  • rbz
    rbz Member Posts: 96 Courageous
    My PIP assessment held on November 2018, Decision about PIP refusal I received on December 2018.
    Can't remember when receive response to Mandatory Reconsideration (something January/February 2019). Appeal  Tribunal hearing was 02.09.2019.
    At this moment I still receive Welfare Supplementary Payment, but don't know when DWP stop this payment.
    My wife was stripped of Carers Allowance and she receiving Welfare Supplementary payment (December 2018 - December 2019).
    Anyone know there possible place new PIP claim (based on new medical records), but also challenge my previous PIP claim from November 2018 when completed PIP claim form till September 2019 when my appeal was refused by Appeals Tribunal.
    I still awaiting for copy of the Statemen of Reasons.
    Also prepare letter to Independent Case Examiner regarding PIP Assessment records content, because I have evidences about my absence from work (report shows that I never sick), report contain wrong information about my hearing aid (I have medical records about this) also there plenty mistakes and my medical records easy disclose that assessor lies.
    Also I believe that Appeals Tribunal decision was based on wrong PIP assessment records.
  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Member Posts: 31,258 Disability Gamechanger
    The supplementary payments will now stop because the Tribunal have made the decision. https://www.housingadviceni.org/welfare-reform/moving-DLA-to-PIP

    Once you receive the SOR and ROP unless there's an error in law then i'm afraid you won't be able to take this any further.

    You can start a new claim anytime, if you do decide to do this then i'd advise you to get some face to face advice from an agency near you.

  • rbz
    rbz Member Posts: 96 Courageous
    Unfortunately my local CAB advisor can't help. When contacted before Tribunal hearing - I not received any advise which allows win Tribunal.
    I already preparing for new claim. 
    Received new hearing aid, next month starts Physiotherapy course and expected MRI scan.
    Also contact my GP and complaint about problems with some activities.
    Tribunal members wondering why I not report GP about problems with food preparation, dress/undress lover body, wash lover body.
    When see GP I always report about problems with leg pains and there no time to talk about problems with daily living.
    Next week contact GP and ask include problems with these activities into my medical records.
  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Member Posts: 31,258 Disability Gamechanger
    To be honest a GP very rarely knows how your conditions affect you against the PIP descriptors so evidence sent from a GP isn't the best to send. People rarely talk about preparing food/dressing and undressing and washing to their GP.
  • rbz
    rbz Member Posts: 96 Courageous
    I have plans to record PIP assessment, and looking for purchase/hire recording equipment. 
    I can't believe that DWP allowed refuse record assessment process.
    Why assessor have more rights than claimant?
    And what happens if assessor lost or destroy media with assessment record? Like demagnetise audio tape or "accidentally" scratch CD. 


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