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Pip refusal based on just one condition of many?

Tommyowens85Tommyowens85 Member Posts: 28 Listener
Hi guys, sorry it’s been a while since I’ve been here. Been stuck in the big hole of pip battle. 
Just wondering if anyone here has had pip assessment/ mr, and reasons for refusal based just on one condition for all descriptors yet applied because of many which seem to have been ignored? Even upon a phone call which I made  with a decision maker although not for my case just to try and understand  why I was refused had said it is clear it had all been based on the one condition not the others. All forms, and a very detailed mr letter went into great detail of other conditions along with medical evidence. 
Surely they have to consider all evidence and not just pick one and deny you the claim based on that? 
Anyone else had this experience? 
Many thanks 

Replies

  • chiariedschiarieds Community champion Posts: 6,896 Disability Gamechanger
    Hi @Tommyowens85 - Sorry to read you're having problems over your PIP claim. I'm sorry, I'm struggling a little to understand when you said, ....'refusal based just on one condition for all descriptors yet applied because of many which seem to have been ignored?' Might you explain further, please.
    My understanding is that PIP is about how any medical condition may affect your activities of daily living &, or, difficulties going outside, & perhaps also your mobility. So, altho' medical evidence may support your claim that a person with a certain disorder/disability 'may' be expected to have certain understandable difficulties, everyone is different, so will have different problems.
    PIP looks at how you're affected, rather then 'just' any medical conditions a person might have. My apologies if I've misunderstood what you were trying to convey.
  • Tommyowens85Tommyowens85 Member Posts: 28 Listener
    Yes sorry for any confusion, I applied for pip because of 3 main reasons, with supporting evidence and very detailed descriptions of which the evidence supported I applied for pip because of a my copd with a lung function of 50% and the challenges that brings, including a supporting letter from my copd practitioner stating I can not walk further than 50meteres without breathlessness, fatigue levels, bathing issues etc, my mental health of which I have suffered for years with and sent supporting evidence from mental health services showing scores which support level of anxiety, depression and level of how it affects my life again with a vet detailed description on how I’m affected. And then problems with my arm being dislocated since birth and never corrected with evidence and discription. 
    My point is that In all reasons for refusal was purely based on my arm function and level of ability with no mention of the other issues, and all information/fescriptions of issues I have meeting descriptor criteria in questionnaire and mandatory reconsideration letter were dismissed with “people can put anything” from a phone call with a decision maker not related to my case. But had also confirmed it had been assesed on my arm abilities only. 
  • Tommyowens85Tommyowens85 Member Posts: 28 Listener
    If that makes sense. Only assessed my case on one condition instead of all I listed and proved, with evidence and detailed explanation on how I’m affected in meeting specific descriptor criteria 
  • Tommyowens85Tommyowens85 Member Posts: 28 Listener
    Sorry, medical evidence shows how I am affected and explanation also explains. 
    It’s just they chose one problem to base all their decisions on not accounting for the others. 
  • chiariedschiarieds Community champion Posts: 6,896 Disability Gamechanger
    Hi again @Tommyowens85 - Apologies for my delay in replying as my computer has been acting up! I now appreciate your frustration. You obviously have stated your problems & how these affect you against the PIP 'descriptors,' & how only one of your conditions appears to have been looked at.
    Sadly it seems your way forward is now to appeal to a Tribunal, as many have had to do. From what I have learnt here, & as you probably know, your best chance of success is to appear in person. Hopefully then you will be appropriately listened to about all the problems you undoubtedly face.
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    Hi,

    All you can do now is request the Tribunal within 1 month of the date of the decision for the MR.

    Forget what was or wasn't said in the report and anything else that has happened up to now. Concentrate on where you think you should have scored those points and your reasons why, adding a couple of real life examples of what happened the last time you attempted that activity for each descriptor that applies to you.



    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • Tommyowens85Tommyowens85 Member Posts: 28 Listener
    Thank you for your replies. I have appealed, posted forms, further evidence and a detailed write up on descriptors and how they apply, referenced with the evidence I sent. And a breakdown of the things I disagree with based on the evidence and report/statement of reasons using evidence and examples to buck it up with. 
    I however can not attend the tribunal due to mental health, part of my mental state is that I can’t go out and doing so makes me very unstable. I have apologised for not being able to be there in person and asked as such please could all my explanations and discription be fully taken into account as I woo the be able to be there to orally explain. 
    Even if I managed to get to their unknown place with these unknown people I feel this would undermine my claim anyway. As well as push me over the edge. 
    Thanks for the advice and hopefully hopefully they take my words into consideration 
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    edited November 2019
    Attending in person will not undermine your claim because the panel will prefer you to attend in person. Paper based hearings have a much less chance of success with only between 5-8% of people having a decision in their favour. Compare this with appearing in person and there's a huge difference as more than 70% of people have a decision in their favour by appearing, with representation and about 50% without representation.

    If there's any chance at all that you can appear in person then i urge you to do so. Do you have someone that can go with you, a friend or family member?
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • Tommyowens85Tommyowens85 Member Posts: 28 Listener
    It’s more the fact if couldn’t cope with the waiting itnwould drive me insane, the getting there, wherever that might be really would be an issue and the facing people I don’t know. It really doesn’t seem possible for me to go. I think It would cause serious harm. 
    Surely with a letter from my copd practitioner in black and white stating my lung function of 50% and maximum walking ability of 50 metres will be enough, this is new evidence by the way that wasn’t in the m.r. How can they argue with that. 
    I don’t know how much weight mental health assessment and scores for gad7 phq9 and wsas have in appeal decisions? 
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    PIP isn't about a diagnosis, it's how those conditions affect your ability to carry out daily activity based on the PIP descriptors. If that evidence doesn't mention exactly how your conditions affect you against the PIP descriptors then it may not be enough. The scores for the mental health assessment don't really mean anything as regards the PIP descriptors.

    Sometimes HMCTS will ask you to appear in person if a decision can't be made on paper alone. They will always prefer a claimant to appear in person. You would need to put together an extremely good case to win on paper alone, the figures tell you that because they are so low.
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    As an after thought you can also request a telephone hearing. I don't know the success rate of those but it will be better than a paper based one. The Tribunal will want to hear from you in your own words how your conditions affect you, which is why paper based hearings have a very low success rate.
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • Tommyowens85Tommyowens85 Member Posts: 28 Listener
    I wasn’t even aware that was an option. How would I ask for that as I have sent appeal papers requesting paper hearing? Evidence does as I said specifically state walking ability and fatigue with bathing and cooking. but I can see how mental health could be tricky and explaining can help score me points 
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    Contact HMCTS to ask for the telephone hearing, once they accept your appeal.  I have no idea of the waiting times for those because we don't often hearing of them.
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • Chloe_ScopeChloe_Scope Scope Posts: 10,662 Disability Gamechanger
    Please do let us know how you get on @Tommyowens85, I wish you the very best of luck!
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  • Tommyowens85Tommyowens85 Member Posts: 28 Listener
    Hi guys, just to say appeal accepted. Evidence sent at same time to pip warranted a review/ 2nd mandatory reconsideration. I’m aware people say that’s not possible but the letter heading was mandatory reconsideration. Anyway sent in evidence as stated in guidelines on gov website. Latest spirometry showing now 39% fev1. Mental health letter stating severe anxiety depression with had, q, and was scores and more. And a letter from care giver for copd. I know it’s not diagnosis it’s how it fits for descriptors so will forget about the mental health letter for now. But the letter from my copd practitioner was dismissed on a basis of hearsay. As it was mentioned in letter Once that I had explained to her how hard I find it to ...  please eveyone who reads this, ensure that the letter comes from “ in their medical opinion”! Dwp have used that against me, also the fact that I am receiving care I did not at time of claim assuming my condition has deteriorated. I told them this was not the case just receiving more help and as it states on guidelines it’s not about what care you receive it’s what you need. They are slippery slippery lowlifes who will cling to anything they can to refuse you. My copd practitioner upon hearing it letter was dismissed is disgusted and writing a further letter being careful on wording and making everything in letter and a form of discriptors based on her professional opinion. Saves their time and yoursndoing his from the start. 
    This aside the spirometer is listed as substantial evidence that should be aknowleged yet wasn’t. Hopefully appeal will see it clearly witth newly “ correctly written” letter and direct link to descriptor evidence 
  • Tommyowens85Tommyowens85 Member Posts: 28 Listener
    Sorry for the rant but wanted to keep you updated and hopefully save anyone else and their care giver from wasting their time due to specific wording. 
  • Tommyowens85Tommyowens85 Member Posts: 28 Listener
    Sorry for spelling mistakes, long day. Also the letter from copd practitioner stated walking distance of at most 50mts but the bathing was where it said I had told/explained I need help with. Therefore dismissing whole letter as hearsay. Long convo with dm clarifies this as well as not being able to tell me why fev1 was not taken into account. Which is listed as a major evidence 
  • Tommyowens85Tommyowens85 Member Posts: 28 Listener
    See how appeal goes I guess 
  • Adrian_ScopeAdrian_Scope Testing Team, Community Team Posts: 7,941 Scope community team
    Thanks for the update @Tommyowens85. Fingers crossed for the appeal. Please do keep us updated with your progress. :)
    Senior Community Partner
    Scope

    If you have a few minutes to spare, we'd appreciate your feedback on our online community.
  • Tommyowens85Tommyowens85 Member Posts: 28 Listener
    Hi guys, well... after a long 7 month slog with MR, and tribunal I’m delighted to say that I have won my appeal!! Paper based too as I couldn’t face attending the tribunal. Was so worried about not attending as I’m aware the win ratio is far less. But I have got full award for both parts! Words can’t express the relief and seems unreal at the minute. But wanted to thank you all for your sound advice and support. I may have given up long ago if it were not for that. 
    And remember everyone that paper based appeals CAN win 
  • janer1967janer1967 Community champion Posts: 7,300 Disability Gamechanger
    @TommyowenCongratulations on your win, and thank you for sharing with us, it is great to hear a good news story and encourages other members to fight for what they deserve. You can now take a step back and ut it all behind you 
  • chiariedschiarieds Community champion Posts: 6,896 Disability Gamechanger
    Hi @Tommyowens85 - I'm delighted to read your great news. Congratulations, especially on a paper based appeal! Thank you very much for letting us all know.
  • skullcapskullcap Member - under moderation Posts: 182 Courageous
    edited February 2020
    I was always under the impression that what you put on the claim form and the difficulties in line with the descriptors must always be backed up with evidence in the first person. With that evidence you have to demonstrate that your claim wins on the balance of probabilities over and above what anybody says or thinks.
    Claiming something without that level of evidence will most likely be ignored as will evidence that is more than a few years old as things could have changed dramatically since then.
    Sometimes it may not matter  what you claim and what descriptors are met if you cannot prove it. Some claimants only look to those descriptors that can be proven and don't bother with others as there is no evidence to support the claim.
    All evidence should be given as the opinion of the person writing it, there is no point in relying on a letter from say a consultant, GP or physio that starts off 'my patient tells me...'

  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    @skullcap this is exactly what yadad and his other usernames always thought and you've just commented exactly the same way as he used to. Anyway, your thoughts here are not correct.
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • Tommyowens85Tommyowens85 Member Posts: 28 Listener
    Hi skull, yes my evidence put forward to appeal from my caregivers  were in their professional opinion and observations not what I have told them so maybe that’s why the evidence was “accepted and preferred” over the health assessors, that’s how the winning appeal notice was worded. 
    Either way it was enough.
     The first letter one of my my care givers had written was worded in a way that It would seem that’s what I have said and was dismissed in m.r.  once I was told that it was not acceptable, they were more than happy to re write in a correct format that is acceptable. In their own views and opinion. Thanks 
  • cristobalcristobal Member Posts: 965 Disability Gamechanger
    @yadnad said "...will most likely be ignored as will evidence that is more than a few years old as things could have changed dramatically since then."

    I didn't find this to be the case, although i only have evidence of one claim.

    I sent an OH report which was 8 years old and it was taken account of.
  • skullcapskullcap Member - under moderation Posts: 182 Courageous
    @skullcap this is exactly what yadad and his other usernames always thought and you've just commented exactly the same way as he used to. Anyway, your thoughts here are not correct.
    What is all this about? I don't care what anybody else has said I am my own person and have my own opinions and views. 
  • skullcapskullcap Member - under moderation Posts: 182 Courageous
    cristobal said:
    I sent an OH report which was 8 years old and it was taken account of.
    Wow, how surprising. I seem to remember that my claim form instructed me not to send a whole box full of evidence but to send in what was relevant at the time and nothing that was more than a few years old. Maybe there is an updated form with different instructions.

  • cristobalcristobal Member Posts: 965 Disability Gamechanger
    @skullcap .... just think of what is 'best evidence' - this was an assessment of functionality carried out by a top specialist in OH ...
    it would haven better if it were more recent but you can't have everything...

    I dare say that it helped, if 'help' is the best way to describe it, that my condition is degenerative so there can be no suggestion of things improving in the interim///
  • skullcapskullcap Member - under moderation Posts: 182 Courageous
    edited February 2020
    Maybe I misread the 
    cristobal said:
    @skullcap .... just think of what is 'best evidence' - this was an assessment of functionality carried out by a top specialist in OH ...
    it would haven better if it were more recent but you can't have everything...

    I dare say that it helped, if 'help' is the best way to describe it, that my condition is degenerative so there can be no suggestion of things improving in the interim///
    Maybe I misread the instructions then? If what you say is correct then I should have submitted a report from my then Respiritory Consultant from 2010 which confirmed that I had 'Chronic Farmers Lung'. It had left me with 40% usage of the left lung and only 20% of the right one. The result of that was that my breathing was poor, I was out of breath with the slightest bit of exercise. I made no mention of this issue on the PIP form as I could not have it verified at that time as my report was then 5 years old. I thought that it would be argued by the DWP that that was then (2010) and for all intents and purposes it may well have changed for the better by 2015 which could not be proven one way or the other.
  • cristobalcristobal Member Posts: 965 Disability Gamechanger
    @skullcap - sorry I can't help because I don't know about Famers Lung... If the 5 year old report is the best you've got then I'd have sent it but I don't know what the rules are..
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    Just to add to this..... i also sent in reports that were 5 years old for my last PIP review. Never had a problem because the evidence was still very much relevant.
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • skullcapskullcap Member - under moderation Posts: 182 Courageous
    Just had a look at my old PIP claim form/notes and it says that the DWP did not want any relevant evidence that was more than two years old.
    I have now found the answer why your case succeeded. They have changed the wording since 2018 on the new PIP2 form. They have removed the two year restriction. So yes you were right in sending it and why it was considered. Talk about moving the goalposts. Those that lost out pre 2018 just had to put up with it, whilst since 2018 any and all evidence will be considered irrespective how old it is as long as it is still relevant.
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    skullcap said:

    I have now found the answer why your case succeeded. They have changed the wording since 2018 on the new PIP2 form. They have removed the two year restriction. So yes you were right in sending it and why it was considered. Talk about moving the goalposts. Those that lost out pre 2018 just had to put up with it, whilst since 2018 any and all evidence will be considered irrespective how old it is as long as it is still relevant.

    Nope, not correct sorry. My last PIP review was in 2016 and all the evidence i sent was used and some of it was more than 2 years old. In fact one was 5 years old, as i previously advised on my other comment.
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • cristobalcristobal Member Posts: 965 Disability Gamechanger
    Mine was before 2018 as well I think - can't say for certain...

    I'd stand by my original post - best evidence, and as recent as possible..

  • skullcapskullcap Member - under moderation Posts: 182 Courageous
    edited February 2020


    Nope, not correct sorry. My last PIP review was in 2016 and all the evidence i sent was used and some of it was more than 2 years old. In fact one was 5 years old, as i previously advised on my other comment.
    Based on the form that I have pre 2018, you appear to have gone against what it said. Still it was your good fortune that saw it used as evidence. Unfortunately I complied and lost some points.
  • Chloe_ScopeChloe_Scope Scope Posts: 10,662 Disability Gamechanger
    Hi guys, well... after a long 7 month slog with MR, and tribunal I’m delighted to say that I have won my appeal!! Paper based too as I couldn’t face attending the tribunal. Was so worried about not attending as I’m aware the win ratio is far less. But I have got full award for both parts! Words can’t express the relief and seems unreal at the minute. But wanted to thank you all for your sound advice and support. I may have given up long ago if it were not for that. 
    And remember everyone that paper based appeals CAN win 
    So happy to hear this @Tommyowens85!! Great news! :)
    Community Partner
    Scope

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