PIP, DLA and AA
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Successful but sort of not happy

madquasimodomadquasimodo Member Posts: 130 Courageous
Just thought I would update our claim in case it helps anyone, had a very poor assessment, used the complaints system right up to the ICE and am now waiting (around a year backlog) for the case review. We got a court date after the MR refused to even look at the paperwork, I called and spoke to someone reviewing the case, their reply was "If you don't like it you can go to a Tribunal"

Court day comes round we get a call putting off the case, 1 month later we get another court date, all ready to leave and the phone rings, thinking the worst only to find the Clerk of the Court informing us the case was sorted. PIP and Mobility back, a short chat and we were told the case should never have been sent back, I guess (doctor/disability) actually looked at the Neurologist report and the ESA's own Disability Analyst report, the lady from the court apologised for the cancelled court date and said after checking my partner should never have been asked to attend court they were receiving lot of cases which should never be asked to be looked at.

Unhappy because after such a long time collecting reports, doctors letters, consultants reports, we both were ready to stand up and fight to try and sort this out, knowing they don't like hearing how you might have been failed by the system or the assessor lied, we spent ages getting things right (or hoped so) not happy because they never gave a proper review descriptor by descriptor, so my partner still has no points in getting around, communication, and other descriptors, it seems just like last time they decided "give enough points to qualify" rather than follow each descriptor though, one other problem depending on how its acted on.

"It is inappropriate to fix a term" and "It is inappropriate to fix a term in view of her age and length of time that the symptoms have persisted"

Not sure how the DWP will react to that, I feel it was deliberate targeting to review her claim only one year into a three year award, with the above comment on the court papers I do wonder if they will try for 3, 5 or longer when a review is due and if the paperwork comes back, I don't feel safe in going for a mobility car after losing the award so quick last time, the DWP can be a bit tit for tat, lets hope when the paperwork comes back it's all ok, I will update this should anything other than the award on the paperwork comes through 

Replies

  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    Hi,

    May i ask what award was given to your partner? You mention you're still not happy because no points were given for moving around.

    Inappropriate to fix a term is a 10 year award and this is the longest award anyone can be given. I'm assuming based on that your partner received Enhanced for both parts, is that correct?
    Proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice I have given to members here on the community.
  • madquasimodomadquasimodo Member Posts: 130 Courageous
    My partner has some problems, but the first Tribunal just gave her PIP and lower mobility and asked if she wanted to try for full mobility, she did and won. sadly they never went though anything else, so low points for getting washed or dressed, she no longer goes out socially and cannot mix or communicate, she used to pop out solo and thought nothing of going on a flight to see someone, now she gets lost coming from the shop to the car or taxi.
    If you asked her to go to the local shops she would not find it or get the right bus, without assistance she cannot walk 5 paces without falling.

    While we are thankful for the Tribunal award it passes the mark by 2 points, if you go through the descriptors and fairly mark them she should have many points to spare, It would have been nice to have all the descriptors corrected rather than just enough to gain the award back, to me it seems like "we don't care you have to wash and lift her out of the bath"  
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    edited December 2019
    Sorry but i'm still confused, what was she actually awarded by the Tribunal this time please for daily living and mobility?
    Proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice I have given to members here on the community.
  • cristobalcristobal Member Posts: 966 Disability Gamechanger
    edited December 2019
    @madquasimodo - speaking personally, if you've been awarded PIP  I wouldn't worry about which points you got for what.
    My assessment was a mess.
    It was corrected at MR.
    In terms of accuracy it was no better - but I got the award that I thought I should get so I just left it at that otherwise I could have gone on forever...

  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 6,006 Disability Gamechanger
    Legally the case law is crystal clear. If a claimant hits the 8 or 12 point threshold then there is no requirement to go any further. There are numerous good reasons for this but 

    1 - there’s no legal requirement for a PIP score to accurately reflect every aspect of your impairment once enough points have been scored. 

    2 - tribunals do well to get through 6 to 8 appeals in a day and some areas are pushing for 10. That’s before you even get into the paper hearings they have to do. 

    3 - tribunals sessions are around 3 hours long. 2 sessions in a day is the equivalent for a judge of writing enough to do 2 3 hour exams every time they sit.  Focusing on things which don’t change benefit entitlement would be a poor use of time and money. 
  • cristobalcristobal Member Posts: 966 Disability Gamechanger
    @mikehughescq - I might be missing something Mike but if there's "no requirement to go further" when you hit 8 points, how can you be certain that someone wouldn't have scored 12 points and got a higher rate??
  • madquasimodomadquasimodo Member Posts: 130 Courageous
    Thank you mikehughescq 
    Legally the case law is crystal clear. If a claimant hits the 8 or 12 point threshold then there is no requirement to go any further. There are numerous good reasons for this but 

    1 - there’s no legal requirement for a PIP score to accurately reflect every aspect of your impairment once enough points have been scored. 

    2 - tribunals do well to get through 6 to 8 appeals in a day and some areas are pushing for 10. That’s before you even get into the paper hearings they have to do. 

    3 - tribunals sessions are around 3 hours long. 2 sessions in a day is the equivalent for a judge of writing enough to do 2 3 hour exams every time they sit.  Focusing on things which don’t change benefit entitlement would be a poor use of time and money. 
    This may be the answer, still does not make me feel happy, when speaking to the Decision maker who looked at the MR they were very dismissive almost mocking, they said the assessment report was fit for purpose and a few points would have made no difference, the reason I probably sound churlish or petty if the descriptors were properly awarded we would never have needed to go so far, there would have been points to spare, even losing a couple would have made no difference, hence wanting a day in court to correct this, I am glad its done and the award re-instated, it has been 2 years of worry and stress getting ready for the Tribunals, the first reduced my partner to tears, the only good thing is we won on both appeals.

    I only want to show sometimes it can be a good outcome but not perfect, perhaps someone else will take it as a sign to keep fighting, you have nothing to lose as the stress is there regardless fighting or giving up for some it can be very stressful.
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 6,006 Disability Gamechanger
    @cristobal one example of the requirement is set out within http://administrativeappeals.decisions.tribunals.gov.uk//judgmentfiles/j4979/CPIP%202337%202016-00.doc and relates to the enhanced rate. The point is that if someone scores 8 but clearly not 12 then you don’t need to record that they actually scored 9, 10 or 11. You can stop at 8. Similarly, if you get to 12 then the fact you night score 24 is neither here nor there. PIP only wants to know if you score 8 or 12.
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 6,006 Disability Gamechanger
    @cristobal one example of the requirement is set out within http://administrativeappeals.decisions.tribunals.gov.uk//judgmentfiles/j4979/CPIP%202337%202016-00.doc and relates to the enhanced rate. The point is that if someone scores 8 but clearly not 12 then you don’t need to record that they actually scored 9, 10 or 11. You can stop at 8. Similarly, if you get to 12 then the fact you night score 24 is neither here nor there. PIP only wants to know if you score 8 or 12.
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    I have no idea why you would want to go through the stress of appearing in person when the award has already been given, sorry but there would be no point in appearing. The only thing that will be achieved from doing that is more stress.
    Proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice I have given to members here on the community.
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 6,006 Disability Gamechanger
    Having represented for many years I’m going to gently disagree. There is huge value for many people in having their “day in court” as they see it. Even if the outcome isn’t perfect it allows some degree of closure and allows some venting. 

    It’s always good to remember as a rep that it’s not your appeal and what each claimant wants may be different. I always say to clients that at the end of an appeal, when all parties ought to be asked if they have anything else to say, they are welcome to say their piece as it’s their money not mine. This always comes with the caveat that if they rant or explode or undo the (hopefully) preceding good work then they have to accept the consequences. Never had it backfire once, although there was a tasty punch up once. Knowing that you have been heard has huge value. 

    In this instance though I would agree to leave well alone as the concern appears to be about attitude rather than outcome. It’s fine to make such comments if you’ve a hearing anyway but if you want that hearing just to make those points then, whilst most judges will fall short of calling you an idiot, you are likely to get very short shrift indeed. I can just imagine my favourite judge (insert sarcastic tone here) asking whether you want to change the attitude of decision makers or get a PIP award because a tribunal can only do one of those!
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