falsified pip assessment report

michael_m

Hi everyone

Can anyone offer me any advise on this

I recently had my pip assessment and assessor has stated in the pip report 'I can walk 50 to 200 metres either unaided or aided'

I am in a wheelchair as I have a undiagnosed mobility issue and during my assessment the assessor at no point asked me to get up and walk about and thus has made literally NO observations on my walking ability and therefore I cant undertsand how she has formed this opinion. Evidence was sent with my pip form as follows (in addition to the pip form) a official letter from consultant at hospital clearly stating 'This gentleman can't walk' and also a official letter from my doctor stating i need to use a wheelchair for all my outdoor mobilizing but both these letters were ignored. They have also accused me of 'faking the need to use a wheelchair' as I haven't had a nhs wheelchair assessment inspite of doctors letter TELLING them i need to use a wheelchair. This means I didn't get any pip as I only scored 4 points when in actuallity as I cant walk (as defined by pip regulations 2013 part4 section 4a to 4d/ reliability criteria) I should have scored 12 points.

It is not only the fact that due to pip assessor having no evidential basis for her statement on my ability to walk (due to not even observing me walking) that I am worried about, I am also worried about as I am awaiting a work capibility assessment I fear the information in the pip report stating my walking ability will be used as part of my assessment to decide if I am in the right uc conditionaly group and on the basis of that they will leave me in the all requirements group and treat me as a able bodied person and have to do all the things a able bodied person can and when I refuse because I cant do it (like if they send me on a course were I am walking about all day) because I literally cant do it because I cant walk they will stop my benefits on the grounds of (as they see it) I can walk and dont need a wheelchair.

I am curently doing a mandatory reconsideration but I dont feel this will succeed as the decsion maker always agree with pip assessor (even though it has no evidential basis) and I am prepared to take to a tribunal but tribunals have upto a 2 year waiting list and I fear they will treat me as a able bodied person until I have had my tribunal. My condition although undiagnosed does literally reflect the symptoms of a stroke, I can assure you this is not an exageration although a stroke has been ruled out.

Is there anybody out there who can give me any advise or suggestions as to what to do about this.

steve51

Hi @michael_m

Good Afternoon & Welcome.

I am one off the Community Champion’s here at Scope.

Yes I have also had a Stroke due to a “Brain Condition”

I have just gone through my “PIP” what a “great experience”

We have got some good info & advice on here.

I am very very happy in helping you if required????

@steve51

poppy123456

HI and welcome,

As difficult as it seems you need to ignore everything that was written in the report because you can't prove what did or didn't happen during your assessment.

What you need to do now is prove that those descriptors apply to you and why, adding a couple of real life examples of what happened the last time you attempted that activity for each descriptor that applies to you.

The moving around part of PIP, if you can stand and put 1 foot on the ground then you are classed as able to walk. You need to state how far you're able to walk without pain and discomfort. Unfortunately, if you bought your own wheelchair then it could be classed as a choice rather than a need.

A letter from a GP and Consultant stating that you need to use a wheelchair for outside activities will not help your PIP claim. You need to state the reasons why you're unable to walk that distance and what would happen if you did walk it or what happened the last time you attempted to walk.

This link will help you have more understanding of the PIP descriptors and criteria.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/personal-independence-payment-assessment-guide-for-assessment-providers/pip-assessment-guide-part-2-the-assessment-criteria

Do be aware that most MR decisions remain the same so you'll very likely have to take it to Tribunal. Appearing in person will give you the best chance of a decision in your favour.

For the work capability assessment for the mobilising descriptor they will also assess your ability to self propel a manual wheelchair and if they think you're able to do this then it's possible they will find you fit for work, so do bare that in mind, it's not just about the distance you can walk for this. This assessment is about your ability to do any type of work because it's about the work you can do and not the work you can't do.

PIP and the work capability assessment are different benefits with totally different criteria and one doesn't affect the other.

michael_m

Hi poppy123456 (and everyone else)

Thanks for your advise

With regards to walking, surely they have to consider the ‘time’ it takes you walk a certain distance and to be considered as ‘able to walk’ (for moving around question on pip form) you have to be able to walk at 30+ metres per minute. I base this on the ‘reasonable time’ section of pip regulations 2013 part 4 section 4d?, which defines a ability to walk as not more than twice as long as a non disabled person and I believe this means if you can only walk at LESS than 30+ metres per minute you are deemed as unable to walk due to not being able to do it in a reasonable time.

I have applied for a disabled bus pass and my doctor has completed the evidence form and she has stated ‘I am unable to walk’ and in extra information section she has stated ‘struggles to walk more than 15 metres in 5 minutes’. Could I use this as evidence as to the pace and distance I can walk.

Also I have now had a wheelchair assessment and it has been deemed that I do need one, could I use evidence of this to prove I do need to use a wheelchair. Although the wheelchair assessment was for a manual wheelchair it was discussed with wheelchair assessor that I would be better with a electric one as I struggle to mobilize myself in my wheelchair but I asked for a assessment for a manual wheelchair only as I am not allowed to have a electric wheelchair in my council flat (council says there not allowed)

DuffersMum

I swear half of them make it up as they go along...my report clearly stated “I saw her walk 15m from waiting area to assessment room” then later on “She can walk 20m but no more than 50m aided” I mean it’s ridiculous....I also swear that at least 3 sections of my report had been copied and pasted from another person’s report....it’s very unfair but all done so they can turn you down in the hope you don’t appeal

cristobal

@michael_m ...as Poppy has said you need to ask for a MR, send further evidence about how far you can walk and give examples...

Can I make a suggestion?

Before you ask for a MR be clear in your own mind exactly how far you can walk, whether you need aids etc. PIP isn't about using a wheelchair...

The reason I say this is that in your post that a doctor said, "this gentleman can't walk" and that you need to use a wheelchair, another doctor says "struggles to walk more than 15metres in 5 minutes", and you say that "I can't walk" There is a contradiction between two doctors and you (I'm assuming that these were two different doctors?)

Only you know your condition.

Be clear in you own mind how far you can walk and then ask for MR...

michael_m

Hi Cristobal and everyone

It was a specialist at hospital who declared me as unable to walk, this was based on his observations of me walking from my wheelchair to a gurney for a examination. He could see quite clearly I was struggling to move from my wheelchair to the gurney, a distance of only about 10ft and it took me an eternity to get there and I was clearly in pain and my legs were very weak and I was on the point of collapsing. His statement as to me not being able to walk therefore is reference to me not being able to move from one spot to another in a safe manner (risk of me falling) and not a a speed that would constitue walking. I therefore beleive this opinion was stating I cant walk in the context of a 'medical definition' not a physical one. But of-course the dwp have to consider the 'pace' you can move from one spot to another and to be deemed as being able to do descriptor 'moving around' you have to be able to do it as defined by reliability criteria (pip regulations 2013 part 4 section 4b?) which states reasonable time as no more than twice as long as someone without this condition would take, this is 30+metres per minute and thus anyone who cant walk at 30+ metres per minute would be deemed unable to that descriptor as they cant do it in 'a reasonable time' (in this case it is question 14 moving around on pip form).

In regards to my doctor at the local practice she has declared me unable to walk based on the information from the specialist at hospital but when I have been to see her in her consultation room I have got out of my wheelchair and walked (as best as I can) to a chair by her desk and this is only a very short distance but still takes me many seconds to do and I am very unbalanced when I do this (cos I hate being in my wheelchair) and the statement struggles to walk more than 15 metres in 5 minutes is based on her observations of me walking from my wheelchair to the seat by her desk. Therefore when I state I cant walk I am not staiting I cant move from one spot to another I am merely stating I cant do it safely due to risk of collapsing as a result of weakness in my legs and cant do it at a speed which the dwp consider as walking (30+ metres per minute as defined in the reliabilty criteria).

If there is anybody out there who can tell me if I could use my disabled bus pass evidence form (which states I cant walk/struggles to walk more than 15 metres in 5 mins) as evidence of my inability to walk (as defined by reliability criteria 'reasonable time' / 30+metres per minute) that would be very helpfull. I dont know if it would be accepted on the basis it wasnt provided for pip but I am thinking that because my mobility is going to be the same as for bus pass application as it would be for pip I dont see how I couldn't use it as evidence but I welcome advise on this from anybody who would have better knowledge than me.

thanks folks

cristobal

@michael_m ...I understand now...you're saying that you can walk but slowly...

Personally I think that I'd still be inclined to say how far you can actually walk (as this might explain the DWP suggesting that you are 'faking the use of a wheelchair') and say that you walk slowly to keep safe/because of pain etc.

You must do what's best for you...

Good luck...
 
PS If your doctor says that it takes 5 minutes to walk 15 metres then surely that is very good evidence...

DuffersMum

I disagree with that...it’s an assumption...not a fact...the fact is they saw me walking 15m, they assume from that I can walk up to 50m...however said health professional cannot even get right which joints I had replaced, assuming once again it was my hips, when it was knees which I also clearly discussed with her and which was on my claim form.  From that I’d say she was pretty useless at observation and listening....

cristobal

@duffersmum - although the assessors are fond of making assumptions e.g. Mr X can drive and therefore can work out the change from £20 when he pays for his shopping, I don't think this is the same thing.

I very much doubt that any assessment will involve someone actually walking 50m nor watching someone eat, or cook, or get dressed..

If the assessor has concluded that a claimant can walk 50m it will be based on what they have said in the application/ assessment interview, any medical evidence (if any, bearing in mind that most doctors will only have seen you walk fifteen feet when you go into their surgery), whether what the claimant says is consistent, and their own opinion. 

It's not an assumption but an opinion based on the evidence.

That said, I'm not saying that they get it right all of the time either...

PS There is a 'get out' clause of course.

The descriptor is 'more than 20m and up to 50m' so if the assessor concludes that someone can walk 21m then it would fall into 20-50m, and that isn't a lot different to what some people might claim. Unfortunately, as we all know, it's just the 'wrong' side of the threshold...

DuffersMum

I understand all that, but my argument is, if the assessor wasn’t being observant at my assessment, and not listening to what I said or took any notice of what I’d put in my claim form, which was definitely the case as she got replacement  joints wrong, said I went to post office when I never mentioned that and said my legs are identical when she did her “tests” when they most definitely are not, how can they accept what she assumes about how far I can walk? 

These assessments are a joke and all geared up to just making things up if you don’t give them answers they want to hear...how do I know this?? A friend of mine did the job for a while and had to pack it in because she couldn’t stand their underhand ways.

cristobal

@duffersmum - I agree with you about making conclusions about things that weren't said...I had a hobby that I'd never done, and 'reading Shakespeare'..

Good luck

DuffersMum

But it infers that she was not observant and/or listening..surely they have to consider that? I mean saying my hip may continue to improve when it was my knee is shockingly poor, so how could she truthfully observe how I can walk if she wasn’t paying attention on so many other things? I’m sure I won’t win my appeal but I’ll give it a go as I do believe she was incompetent.

poppy123456

It doesn't matter what was or wasn't said, what matters is where you think you should have scored those points and your reasons why. You're concentrating on what was said in the report and this isn't going to help you. The assessment has gone, it's in the past, what matters now is how you present your case and doing this won't help it at all.

DuffersMum

As i have said before...how on earth can you explain pain? It hurts a lot when I walk, so hence I don’t walk much...it doesn’t hurt as much when I drive because I’m not weight bearing when driving..what more can I say? I walk to the kitchen using a stick and hanging on to furniture as I go, stopping on the way...because it hurts...I can’t repeat that for an hour or two after...I do online shopping because it means I don’t have to attempt a supermarket because it hurts...

what more can I say apart from pain hurts..how do give these examples I keep reading I should give? 

cristobal

@duffersmum - personally I'd give the examples that you've just given..that's what I did.

You are unable to walk far because the pain prevents you; you can't repeat even the limited distance you can walk because of the pain; you try to avoid walking because it's painful...

What more is there to say?

Edit - I might just add how far you can get, roughly, before you have to stop - but I think you've mentioned that earlier...

poppy123456

Walking around your home doesn't count for the mobility part, as i previously advised.

michael_m

yes thats true, the mobility part (question 14 on pip form) IS soley for stating how you het about outdoors, however they seem to ignore this fact and make there conclusions on how you walk about indoors even though they are not supposed to so poppy123456 is right

DuffersMum

That was just an example of how do you describe pain..I could just as easily have said, I walk down the drive using 2 sticks, stopping on the way...because it hurts...I can’t repeat that for an hour or two after...I do online shopping because it means I don’t have to attempt a supermarket because it hurts...

I can’t go to the supermarket because it hurts when I walk, so I do online shopping? Put all this one my claim form and they ignored everything...so why would it make any sense to repeat that on appeal?

i just don’t understand how you describe pain which is what you all seem to say I need to do...hurting is hurting, pain is pain I don’t know how else to explain it... but of course that’s what they want...they want you to give up because is so sodding frustrating repeating yourself time after time but they just choose to ignore it and make a load of rubbish up instead...

chiarieds

Hoping I'm not adding to your confusion @DuffersMum - Firstly, please look carefully at the link Poppy has already given. Here it is again: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/personal-independence-payment-assessment-guide-for-assessment-providers/pip-assessment-guide-part-2-the-assessment-criteria

An understanding of this may help you.

Secondly - shopping is not considered, so whether you do it online, or not, it's not worth mentioning

Thirdly - I would disagree with you. Pain has all sorts of different natures.....it can be like toothache; it can be lancinating; burning; a dull ache, etc. It can radiate to other parts of your body. Most importantly, it's subjective, so everyone's experience of it may be different.

The onus is therefore upon you to describe it, & where it is, so that another person may better understand. This is where again, you might be explaining it better, to give a couple of examples, again as Poppy has guided, as to how you felt when attempting this activity, & any difficulties you faced, basing it on how you were at the time of your assessment. Perhaps here, if applicable, you might mention your knee replacements, if this has hindered your walking, rather than saying the assessor got the wrong joints.

It also seems logical that it could be assumed that following your total knee replacements there might be improvement in your walking. I'm not trying to be personal here; just objective.

So, please look at the descriptors that are applicable to you, saying where you feel you should have gained points & why (again!) as Poppy has already advised.

DuffersMum

I only wish my knee replacements had improved my walking, that was the case after the first one, sadly the second one hasn’t been as successful and it’s likely it will have to be redone, probably after I’ve had both my hips done, or possibly before...I have to go back and make an appointment with my consultant in February, he told me to leave it 2 years as if things haven’t improved by then they are unlikely to ever improve ? I did explain as best I could about the type of pain I have when I walk (and even now when I’m sitting) but they seemed to take no notice of it. Generally just falling to bits, can’t walk, obviously according to the DWP I shouldn’t be driving if I can’t walk, can’t work because I can’t walk or stand (or sit now ?) meanwhile others het higher rate mobility who work and drive...doesn’t make sense to me at all ??‍♀️ But all in all the assessor did get the wrong joints but everybody seems to think that this is perfectly acceptable? She was useless, a nurse she may have been but she certainly wasn’t one who understands osteoarthritis!

i do appreciate all the replies I’ve received I just find the whole ridiculous process frustrating ?