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falsified pip assessment report

michael_mmichael_m Member Posts: 6 Listener
Hi everyone
Can anyone offer me any advise on this
I recently had my pip assessment and assessor has stated in the pip report 'I can walk 50 to 200 metres either unaided or aided'
I am in a wheelchair as I have a undiagnosed mobility issue and during my assessment the assessor at no point asked me to get up and walk about and thus has made literally NO observations on my walking ability and therefore I cant undertsand how she has formed this opinion. Evidence was sent with my pip form as follows (in addition to the pip form) a official letter from consultant at hospital clearly stating 'This gentleman can't walk' and also a official letter from my doctor stating i need to use a wheelchair for all my outdoor mobilizing but both these letters were ignored. They have also accused me of 'faking the need to use a wheelchair' as I haven't had a nhs wheelchair assessment inspite of doctors letter TELLING them i need to use a wheelchair. This means I didn't get any pip as I only scored 4 points when in actuallity as I cant walk (as defined by pip regulations 2013 part4 section 4a to 4d/ reliability criteria) I should have scored 12 points.
It is not only the fact that due to pip assessor having no evidential basis for her statement on my ability to walk (due to not even observing me walking) that I am worried about, I am also worried about as I am awaiting a work capibility assessment I fear the information in the pip report stating my walking ability will be used as part of my assessment to decide if I am in the right uc conditionaly group and on the basis of that they will leave me in the all requirements group and treat me as a able bodied person and have to do all the things a able bodied person can and when I refuse because I cant do it (like if they send me on a course were I am walking about all day) because I literally cant do it because I cant walk they will stop my benefits on the grounds of (as they see it) I can walk and dont need a wheelchair.
I am curently doing a mandatory reconsideration but I dont feel this will succeed as the decsion maker always agree with pip assessor (even though it has no evidential basis) and I am prepared to take to a tribunal but tribunals have upto a 2 year waiting list and I fear they will treat me as a able bodied person until I have had my tribunal. My condition although undiagnosed does literally reflect the symptoms of a stroke, I can assure you this is not an exageration although a stroke has been ruled out.
Is there anybody out there who can give me any advise or suggestions as to what to do about this.

Replies

  • steve51steve51 Community champion Posts: 7,175 Disability Gamechanger
    Hi @michael_m

    Good Afternoon & Welcome.

    I am one off the Community Champion’s here at Scope.

    Yes I have also had a Stroke due to a “Brain Condition”

    I have just gone through my “PIP” what a “great experience”

    We have got some good info & advice on here.

    I am very very happy in helping you if required????

    @steve51
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    HI and welcome,

    As difficult as it seems you need to ignore everything that was written in the report because you can't prove what did or didn't happen during your assessment.

    What you need to do now is prove that those descriptors apply to you and why, adding a couple of real life examples of what happened the last time you attempted that activity for each descriptor that applies to you.

    The moving around part of PIP, if you can stand and put 1 foot on the ground then you are classed as able to walk. You need to state how far you're able to walk without pain and discomfort. Unfortunately, if you bought your own wheelchair then it could be classed as a choice rather than a need.

    A letter from a GP and Consultant stating that you need to use a wheelchair for outside activities will not help your PIP claim. You need to state the reasons why you're unable to walk that distance and what would happen if you did walk it or what happened the last time you attempted to walk.

    This link will help you have more understanding of the PIP descriptors and criteria.

    Do be aware that most MR decisions remain the same so you'll very likely have to take it to Tribunal. Appearing in person will give you the best chance of a decision in your favour.

    For the work capability assessment for the mobilising descriptor they will also assess your ability to self propel a manual wheelchair and if they think you're able to do this then it's possible they will find you fit for work, so do bare that in mind, it's not just about the distance you can walk for this. This assessment is about your ability to do any type of work because it's about the work you can do and not the work you can't do.

    PIP and the work capability assessment are different benefits with totally different criteria and one doesn't affect the other.

    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • michael_mmichael_m Member Posts: 6 Listener
    Hi poppy123456 (and everyone else)
    Thanks for your advise

    With regards to walking, surely they have to consider the ‘time’ it takes you walk a certain distance and to be considered as ‘able to walk’ (for moving around question on pip form) you have to be able to walk at 30+ metres per minute. I base this on the ‘reasonable time’ section of pip regulations 2013 part 4 section 4d?, which defines a ability to walk as not more than twice as long as a non disabled person and I believe this means if you can only walk at LESS than 30+ metres per minute you are deemed as unable to walk due to not being able to do it in a reasonable time.

    I have applied for a disabled bus pass and my doctor has completed the evidence form and she has stated ‘I am unable to walk’ and in extra information section she has stated ‘struggles to walk more than 15 metres in 5 minutes’. Could I use this as evidence as to the pace and distance I can walk.

    Also I have now had a wheelchair assessment and it has been deemed that I do need one, could I use evidence of this to prove I do need to use a wheelchair. Although the wheelchair assessment was for a manual wheelchair it was discussed with wheelchair assessor that I would be better with a electric one as I struggle to mobilize myself in my wheelchair but I asked for a assessment for a manual wheelchair only as I am not allowed to have a electric wheelchair in my council flat (council says there not allowed)


  • DuffersMumDuffersMum Member Posts: 119 Pioneering
    I swear half of them make it up as they go along...my report clearly stated “I saw her walk 15m from waiting area to assessment room” then later on “She can walk 20m but no more than 50m aided” I mean it’s ridiculous....I also swear that at least 3 sections of my report had been copied and pasted from another person’s report....it’s very unfair but all done so they can turn you down in the hope you don’t appeal
  • cristobalcristobal Member Posts: 966 Disability Gamechanger
    @michael_m ...as Poppy has said you need to ask for a MR, send further evidence about how far you can walk and give examples...

    Can I make a suggestion?

    Before you ask for a MR be clear in your own mind exactly how far you can walk, whether you need aids etc. PIP isn't about using a wheelchair...

    The reason I say this is that in your post that a doctor said, "this gentleman can't walk" and that you need to use a wheelchair, another doctor says "struggles to walk more than 15metres in 5 minutes", and you say that "I can't walk" There is a contradiction between two doctors and you (I'm assuming that these were two different doctors?)

    Only you know your condition.

    Be clear in you own mind how far you can walk and then ask for MR...

  • michael_mmichael_m Member Posts: 6 Listener
    Hi Cristobal and everyone
    It was a specialist at hospital who declared me as unable to walk, this was based on his observations of me walking from my wheelchair to a gurney for a examination. He could see quite clearly I was struggling to move from my wheelchair to the gurney, a distance of only about 10ft and it took me an eternity to get there and I was clearly in pain and my legs were very weak and I was on the point of collapsing. His statement as to me not being able to walk therefore is reference to me not being able to move from one spot to another in a safe manner (risk of me falling) and not a a speed that would constitue walking. I therefore beleive this opinion was stating I cant walk in the context of a 'medical definition' not a physical one. But of-course the dwp have to consider the 'pace' you can move from one spot to another and to be deemed as being able to do descriptor 'moving around' you have to be able to do it as defined by reliability criteria (pip regulations 2013 part 4 section 4b?) which states reasonable time as no more than twice as long as someone without this condition would take, this is 30+metres per minute and thus anyone who cant walk at 30+ metres per minute would be deemed unable to that descriptor as they cant do it in 'a reasonable time' (in this case it is question 14 moving around on pip form).

    In regards to my doctor at the local practice she has declared me unable to walk based on the information from the specialist at hospital but when I have been to see her in her consultation room I have got out of my wheelchair and walked (as best as I can) to a chair by her desk and this is only a very short distance but still takes me many seconds to do and I am very unbalanced when I do this (cos I hate being in my wheelchair) and the statement struggles to walk more than 15 metres in 5 minutes is based on her observations of me walking from my wheelchair to the seat by her desk. Therefore when I state I cant walk I am not staiting I cant move from one spot to another I am merely stating I cant do it safely due to risk of collapsing as a result of weakness in my legs and cant do it at a speed which the dwp consider as walking (30+ metres per minute as defined in the reliabilty criteria).

    If there is anybody out there who can tell me if I could use my disabled bus pass evidence form (which states I cant walk/struggles to walk more than 15 metres in 5 mins) as evidence of my inability to walk (as defined by reliability criteria 'reasonable time' / 30+metres per minute) that would be very helpfull. I dont know if it would be accepted on the basis it wasnt provided for pip but I am thinking that because my mobility is going to be the same as for bus pass application as it would be for pip I dont see how I couldn't use it as evidence but I welcome advise on this from anybody who would have better knowledge than me.
    thanks folks
  • cristobalcristobal Member Posts: 966 Disability Gamechanger
    edited December 2019
    @michael_m ...I understand now...you're saying that you can walk but slowly...

    Personally I think that I'd still be inclined to say how far you can actually walk (as this might explain the DWP suggesting that you are 'faking the use of a wheelchair') and say that you walk slowly to keep safe/because of pain etc.

    You must do what's best for you...

    Good luck...
     
    PS If your doctor says that it takes 5 minutes to walk 15 metres then surely that is very good evidence...
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,392 Disability Gamechanger
    These comments are based on a complete misunderstanding of the assessment process. An HCP does not require an evidence base of functional testing. The fact they haven’t done a functional test doesn’t mean they can’t form an opinion. Your GP doesn’t stay over to establish your night time care needs. You’ve also probably not sat down and had a meal with them; shared a toilet with them; done your shopping with them; bathed in front of them and yet many people still believe a GP letter with no evidence base will somehow help them get PIP. 

    Similarly it is neither unfair nor made up to observe someone walk 15m and conclude that they could walk 20 to 50m. Had they concluded the person could walk 300m then maybe not but 20 to 50m? Absolutely. 

    If I saw a person consume a forkful of food with no difficulty what would be the reasonable inference from that? That they could most likely eat a meal or that they absolutely could not? The latter would be plainly ludicrous. I’m no fan of HCP reports but criticism without understanding is unfair and a degree of objectivity is required. 
  • DuffersMumDuffersMum Member Posts: 119 Pioneering
    I disagree with that...it’s an assumption...not a fact...the fact is they saw me walking 15m, they assume from that I can walk up to 50m...however said health professional cannot even get right which joints I had replaced, assuming once again it was my hips, when it was knees which I also clearly discussed with her and which was on my claim form.  From that I’d say she was pretty useless at observation and listening....
  • cristobalcristobal Member Posts: 966 Disability Gamechanger
    edited December 2019
    @duffersmum - although the assessors are fond of making assumptions e.g. Mr X can drive and therefore can work out the change from £20 when he pays for his shopping, I don't think this is the same thing.

    I very much doubt that any assessment will involve someone actually walking 50m nor watching someone eat, or cook, or get dressed..

    If the assessor has concluded that a claimant can walk 50m it will be based on what they have said in the application/ assessment interview, any medical evidence (if any, bearing in mind that most doctors will only have seen you walk fifteen feet when you go into their surgery), whether what the claimant says is consistent, and their own opinion. 

    It's not an assumption but an opinion based on the evidence.

    That said, I'm not saying that they get it right all of the time either...

    PS There is a 'get out' clause of course.

    The descriptor is 'more than 20m and up to 50m' so if the assessor concludes that someone can walk 21m then it would fall into 20-50m, and that isn't a lot different to what some people might claim. Unfortunately, as we all know, it's just the 'wrong' side of the threshold...
  • DuffersMumDuffersMum Member Posts: 119 Pioneering
    I understand all that, but my argument is, if the assessor wasn’t being observant at my assessment, and not listening to what I said or took any notice of what I’d put in my claim form, which was definitely the case as she got replacement  joints wrong, said I went to post office when I never mentioned that and said my legs are identical when she did her “tests” when they most definitely are not, how can they accept what she assumes about how far I can walk? 

    These assessments are a joke and all geared up to just making things up if you don’t give them answers they want to hear...how do I know this?? A friend of mine did the job for a while and had to pack it in because she couldn’t stand their underhand ways.
  • cristobalcristobal Member Posts: 966 Disability Gamechanger
    @duffersmum - I agree with you about making conclusions about things that weren't said...I had a hobby that I'd never done, and 'reading Shakespeare'..

    Good luck
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,392 Disability Gamechanger
    I disagree with that...it’s an assumption...not a fact...the fact is they saw me walking 15m, they assume from that I can walk up to 50m...however said health professional cannot even get right which joints I had replaced, assuming once again it was my hips, when it was knees which I also clearly discussed with her and which was on my claim form.  From that I’d say she was pretty useless at observation and listening....
    A HCP does not have to establish facts. That is solely the job of a decision maker and even then only on the balance of probabilities. They simply express a hopefully informed opinion. That’s why my earlier post said they don’t require an evidence base derived by functional testing. That’s made even clearer in the HCP assessors guidance which only allows functional testing in limited circumstances because the assessment is meant to be a conversation not a medical.

    I would agree that if someone can walk 15m indoors it’s leap to infer they can do 20-50m outdoors but there are 2 aspects of that worth pondering on:

    1 - pre PIP when medical professionals did medicals (the thing that many here and elsewhere call for a return to) this sort of inference was widespread and far more prevalent than it is under PIP. It certainly still happens but the number of times has reduced significantly. 

    2 - as I’ve already said above “ Similarly it is neither unfair nor made up to observe someone walk 15m and conclude that they could walk 20 to 50m. Had they concluded the person could walk 300m then maybe not but 20 to 50m? Absolutely.”

    You are welcome to disagree but legally that remains the current position. HCPs infer. DMs have been doing so since 1948 and tribunals also have no choice to do so else they’d never make an actual decision. 

    Clearly on your assessment they got some things absolutely and unequivocally wrong as you’ve described but you can’t use that to suggest that therefore any inferences they drew must also automatically be wrong. That’s not logical or sustainable and most decent tribunals would rip the approach apart.


  • DuffersMumDuffersMum Member Posts: 119 Pioneering
    But it infers that she was not observant and/or listening..surely they have to consider that? I mean saying my hip may continue to improve when it was my knee is shockingly poor, so how could she truthfully observe how I can walk if she wasn’t paying attention on so many other things? I’m sure I won’t win my appeal but I’ll give it a go as I do believe she was incompetent.
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    It doesn't matter what was or wasn't said, what matters is where you think you should have scored those points and your reasons why. You're concentrating on what was said in the report and this isn't going to help you. The assessment has gone, it's in the past, what matters now is how you present your case and doing this won't help it at all.
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • DuffersMumDuffersMum Member Posts: 119 Pioneering
    As i have said before...how on earth can you explain pain? It hurts a lot when I walk, so hence I don’t walk much...it doesn’t hurt as much when I drive because I’m not weight bearing when driving..what more can I say? I walk to the kitchen using a stick and hanging on to furniture as I go, stopping on the way...because it hurts...I can’t repeat that for an hour or two after...I do online shopping because it means I don’t have to attempt a supermarket because it hurts...

    what more can I say apart from pain hurts..how do give these examples I keep reading I should give? 
  • cristobalcristobal Member Posts: 966 Disability Gamechanger
    edited December 2019
    @duffersmum - personally I'd give the examples that you've just given..that's what I did.

    You are unable to walk far because the pain prevents you; you can't repeat even the limited distance you can walk because of the pain; you try to avoid walking because it's painful...

    What more is there to say?

    Edit - I might just add how far you can get, roughly, before you have to stop - but I think you've mentioned that earlier...
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    Walking around your home doesn't count for the mobility part, as i previously advised.
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • michael_mmichael_m Member Posts: 6 Listener
    yes thats true, the mobility part (question 14 on pip form) IS soley for stating how you het about outdoors, however they seem to ignore this fact and make there conclusions on how you walk about indoors even though they are not supposed to so poppy123456 is right
  • DuffersMumDuffersMum Member Posts: 119 Pioneering
    That was just an example of how do you describe pain..I could just as easily have said, I walk down the drive using 2 sticks, stopping on the way...because it hurts...I can’t repeat that for an hour or two after...I do online shopping because it means I don’t have to attempt a supermarket because it hurts...

    I can’t go to the supermarket because it hurts when I walk, so I do online shopping? Put all this one my claim form and they ignored everything...so why would it make any sense to repeat that on appeal?

    i just don’t understand how you describe pain which is what you all seem to say I need to do...hurting is hurting, pain is pain I don’t know how else to explain it... but of course that’s what they want...they want you to give up because is so sodding frustrating repeating yourself time after time but they just choose to ignore it and make a load of rubbish up instead...
  • chiariedschiarieds Community champion Posts: 6,897 Disability Gamechanger
    Hoping I'm not adding to your confusion @DuffersMum - Firstly, please look carefully at the link Poppy has already given. Here it is again: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/personal-independence-payment-assessment-guide-for-assessment-providers/pip-assessment-guide-part-2-the-assessment-criteria
    An understanding of this may help you.
    Secondly - shopping is not considered, so whether you do it online, or not, it's not worth mentioning
    Thirdly - I would disagree with you. Pain has all sorts of different natures.....it can be like toothache; it can be lancinating; burning; a dull ache, etc. It can radiate to other parts of your body. Most importantly, it's subjective, so everyone's experience of it may be different.
    The onus is therefore upon you to describe it, & where it is, so that another person may better understand. This is where again, you might be explaining it better, to give a couple of examples, again as Poppy has guided, as to how you felt when attempting this activity, & any difficulties you faced, basing it on how you were at the time of your assessment. Perhaps here, if applicable, you might mention your knee replacements, if this has hindered your walking, rather than saying the assessor got the wrong joints.
    It also seems logical that it could be assumed that following your total knee replacements there might be improvement in your walking. I'm not trying to be personal here; just objective.
    So, please look at the descriptors that are applicable to you, saying where you feel you should have gained points & why (again!) as Poppy has already advised.

  • DuffersMumDuffersMum Member Posts: 119 Pioneering
    I only wish my knee replacements had improved my walking, that was the case after the first one, sadly the second one hasn’t been as successful and it’s likely it will have to be redone, probably after I’ve had both my hips done, or possibly before...I have to go back and make an appointment with my consultant in February, he told me to leave it 2 years as if things haven’t improved by then they are unlikely to ever improve 😕 I did explain as best I could about the type of pain I have when I walk (and even now when I’m sitting) but they seemed to take no notice of it. Generally just falling to bits, can’t walk, obviously according to the DWP I shouldn’t be driving if I can’t walk, can’t work because I can’t walk or stand (or sit now 🙄) meanwhile others het higher rate mobility who work and drive...doesn’t make sense to me at all 🤷🏻‍♀️ But all in all the assessor did get the wrong joints but everybody seems to think that this is perfectly acceptable? She was useless, a nurse she may have been but she certainly wasn’t one who understands osteoarthritis!

    i do appreciate all the replies I’ve received I just find the whole ridiculous process frustrating 😡
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • DuffersMumDuffersMum Member Posts: 119 Pioneering
    Thanks Poppy, I have read that time and time again after you posted it and my claim form and assessment stated examples of how I walk, how far, how often and whether I can repeat it, looking at those examples and comparing them to my claim form I should have been awarded 12 points in moving around but I was awarded 10.  The main reason for this according to the decision letter I got definitely focuses on the fact that I drive..I doubt I will be able to change the decision at appeal because there isn’t really much more evidence I can give them but I will give it a go and my next review will be much more careful about how I phrase things so they can’t twist them and use against me...saying that I suspect I will be putting in a change of circumstances at some point next year as my right hip has deteriorated quite a lot since my assessment in August. I bet my consultant will be delighted to see me across the desk again...he was so worried about my right knee when it came to replacement as it was so bent and said it would be a complex operation and take much longer than a standard knee replacement...as it happens I was in and out of theatre in the usual time frame and he and I were delighted with the result....8 months later I had the left knee done which was nowhere near as complex but which has caused me nothing but pain ever since!  
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,392 Disability Gamechanger
    It doesn't matter what was or wasn't said, what matters is where you think you should have scored those points and your reasons why. You're concentrating on what was said in the report and this isn't going to help you. The assessment has gone, it's in the past, what matters now is how you present your case and doing this won't help it at all.
    But it infers that she was not observant and/or listening..surely they have to consider that? I mean saying my hip may continue to improve when it was my knee is shockingly poor, so how could she truthfully observe how I can walk if she wasn’t paying attention on so many other things? I’m sure I won’t win my appeal but I’ll give it a go as I do believe she was incompetent.
    It’s been said lots of times before but it bears repeating. You will never win a PIP award by challenging a HCP report. The report will be in evidence. You can’t stop that. You can discredit it slightly but that’s meaningless if you don’t know exactly what points you’re aiming for and haven’t provided evidence of that I.e. good, recent anecdotal examples of what happened the last few times you attempted a specific points scoring activity. You win PIP through the strength of your case not the weakness of 1 report. 

    A decision maker or tribunal only have to consider what’s in front of them. Cases turn on evidence; facts and law rather than opinion. Your opinion is that the HCP was not as observant as you think they ought to have been but there’s no legal way of proving that. You can’t tell a tribunal that a HCP ought to have seen something. You have no objective evidence of what they did or didn’t see. Okay the HCP got confused on some things. If it was in your claim pack and it’s as obvious an error as you say then the tribunal will pick up on it. 

    Finally, as I’ve already said twice, legally they don’t have to find facts so criticising them for not being factual is a fools errand. Legally 20 to 50m is absolutely within the range of reasonable inferences after seeing someone do 15m. If you don’t start by accepting the law as it is and refocus on your evidence then yes you absolutely will not win your tribunal. No tribunal will see that inference as unreasonable unless you strongly evidence otherwise.

    Start by going back to your claim pack and checking for example that the example you’ve given in this thread re: your mobility is in there and in there in several paragraphs of detail. Then ask yourself whether you’ve given yourself a second example of something bad happening with your mobility. If not then your case is weak and you need yo start thinking of the examples and getting them down in detail so you don’t forget them on the day.
  • DuffersMumDuffersMum Member Posts: 119 Pioneering
    My husband won his tribunal by proving the HCP’s report was a complete load of fabricated nonsense.  It was a few years ago and things may well have changed but at that time they agreed with him that the majority of her report had been copied and pasted and was totally irrelevant to his case.


  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    My husband won his tribunal by proving the HCP’s report was a complete load of fabricated nonsense.  It was a few years ago and things may well have changed but at that time they agreed with him that the majority of her report had been copied and pasted and was totally irrelevant to his case.


    Then he was very lucky because concentrating on the report could go against you. A badly presented case often leads to refusal. You've had a lot of advice over several different threads but how you present your case is your decision.

    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,392 Disability Gamechanger
    My husband won his tribunal by proving the HCP’s report was a complete load of fabricated nonsense.  It was a few years ago and things may well have changed but at that time they agreed with him that the majority of her report had been copied and pasted and was totally irrelevant to his case.


    The majority of the report had been copied and pasted from what? That makes no sense to me. It can’t have been copied and pasted from someone else’s report for example as the software only allows the opening of one case at a time last time I looked to prevent exactly that error occurring. What is it you believe it was copied and pasted from?

    It’s an interesting assertion you’re making about why/how he won but I also don’t see how you could know the basis for winning. If you win then you get a summary decision derived from a template. It absolutely does not have anything in that template along the lines you suggest. The only way you’d get the level of detail needed to be clear as to why he won would be if he asked for an SOR and ROP. Most people who win never do that. 

    People want to believe that their victory was achieved because a tribunal listened to their detailed picking apart of a HCP report but that’s never the case because 

    1 - the medical professional on the panel will never tolerate 20 to 40 minutes of someone in a broadly similar field being picked apart.

    2 - you’re overwhelmingly kicking at an open door with most panels. They know how poor the HCP reports can be; don’t need to dwell on the detail of it and need to spend their limited time asking questions around mobility and daily living. Indeed the more you go on about a HCP report in a tribunal the less patient the panel are likely to be as, as per my previous post, it’s simply not possible to get PIP entitlement by discrediting a HCP report. It’s legally and practically impossible. The other evidence has to have the strength to do that else the appeal fails. 

    Seen loads of cases where people have disregarded advice and put together a micro analysis of the HCP report and then wondered why the lost. Essentially because they did a poor claim pack; made a load of unevidenced assertions and took the HCP report as a personal affront to be rectified at all cost. They focus on the impossible task of showing someone lied rather than on the points they need to score.

    3 - nothing has changed of any significance to any of the above processes in the last few years which would impact what I’m saying above. 

    4 - sometimes a HCP report can be used to justify a supersession decision by DWP. A tribunal could in those circumstances find no grounds for supersession, which could be read as meaning they accepted that the HCP report was rubbish and nothing had changed. Of course to do that they would again need to examine the other evidence which suggested that was the case and thus even in supersession cases you can’t win an appeal solely on discrediting the HCP report. It’s always about what the other evidence is saying. 
  • DuffersMumDuffersMum Member Posts: 119 Pioneering
    The tribunal in my husbands case said to him (and I know this because I was sat with him) the assessment report on your condition bears no resemblance to your disabilities and we have no idea where the HCP got her assumptions from.

    As I said things may well have changed, this was many years ago when PIP was first rolled out..guessing they thought that by the HCP stayed she carried out the assessment in X town when in fact it was carried out in a different one made them think she wasn’t up to the job! His assessment was riddled with inaccuracies.  The tribunal chucked it straight out and awarded him care and mobility whereas HCP had scored him zero points on both.

    I am more than happy with my award,as I am only £10 a month worse off, the only reason I am appealing is principle..but as I’ve said next time they won’t be twisting things to suit because I will be recording it (yes I know how to go about doing this).
  • DuffersMumDuffersMum Member Posts: 119 Pioneering
    And I still say...how can you describe pain? It hurts..it’s hurts a lot...it always hurts...it’s ridiculous...easy to say I can’t pick up a pan of boiling water because my hands are swollen (not in my instance but just an example) and I may drop it and scold myself.  But how to do say I can’t walk because of pain in my hips etc any other way than “I can’t walk because of pain in my hips”

    easy for daily care, not easy for mobility....and it all comes down to how competent the HCP doing the assessment is.
  • cristobalcristobal Member Posts: 966 Disability Gamechanger
    @duffersmum said..".they won’t be twisting things to suit because I will be recording it (yes I know how to go about doing this)."

    I recorded my assessment and it didn't seem to make any difference to what the assessor said...

    Pain - I'd just describe it as best you can.. "It hurts..it’s hurts a lot...it always hurts." are all OK (or at least they were in my case)
  • DuffersMumDuffersMum Member Posts: 119 Pioneering
    cristobal said:
    @duffersmum said..".they won’t be twisting things to suit because I will be recording it (yes I know how to go about doing this)."

    I recorded my assessment and it didn't seem to make any difference to what the assessor said...

    Pain - I'd just describe it as best you can.. "It hurts..it’s hurts a lot...it always hurts." are all OK (or at least they were in my case)
    I put those sort of statements in my claim, but seems they weren’t enough...I will put them in my appeal but try and word them a little differently!  Honestly it’s like banging your head against a wall 🙄😳
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger


    I am more than happy with my award,as I am only £10 a month worse off, the only reason I am appealing is principle..
    This is what i just don't understand, sorry.

    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • cristobalcristobal Member Posts: 966 Disability Gamechanger
    @duffersmum - If you're only talking about £10 per moth I would have a think about whether it's worth it.

    When I say this I'm not saying 'don't bother' but, speaking personally, I found that with me I became so focused on a perceived injustice that it clouded my judgement and I should have ditched it long before I did. It made me ill and I became obsessed.

    Take into account also that your award could go down and if the 'upside' is only £10 I would try to balance that with the possible downside...

    That's my opinion, based on my experience. Everyone is different obviously...

    Happy New Year! 

    Good luck...


  • DuffersMumDuffersMum Member Posts: 119 Pioneering


    I am more than happy with my award,as I am only £10 a month worse off, the only reason I am appealing is principle..
    This is what i just don't understand, sorry.

    It’s not about the money, it’s about the principle...and about the HCP writing a load of rubbish...if the report had been accurate and I’d only gained the points which I have I would have left it and just been more careful at my next review about how I answer the questions...however the fact that the assessment report was so inaccurate has made me go through the (utterly useless) Mandatory Reconsideration process and then to appeal..the more they think they can get away with writing inaccurate nonsense the more they will do it.

    it has never been about the money for me...oh and I sent all my stuff off to DVLA to sort out the road tax and it’s all been lost in the post, original log book, original MOT certificate and original decision document from DWP so now I’ve got to go back and get new original documents and start all over again...DVLA are sending a new log book free of charge so that I can send it back to them again in order that they can then send me another new one...don’t government departments work well 😫🤦🏻‍♀️ 
  • CressidaCressida Member Posts: 694 Pioneering
    @DuffersMum No disrespect but I agree with @cristobal and @poppy123456. You sound so angry and seem to be arguing with anyone giving you advice and trying to help. If you suffer from chronic pain I'm sure this stress cannot help. For the sake of £10 is it really worth putting yourself through this? Life is very short. 
  • cristobalcristobal Member Posts: 966 Disability Gamechanger
    edited December 2019
    @ilovecats - that's a good idea.

    A tribunal may change the decision but they won't be able to correct any anomalies in the HCP report.

    If you complain they may change the content of the report - that's what they did in my case (to some extent)


  • chiariedschiarieds Community champion Posts: 6,897 Disability Gamechanger
    @DuffersMum - You write, 'Honestly it’s like banging your head against a wall.' I couldn't agree with you more. 
    You have been given the best possible advice, which you unfortunately choose to ignore.
    Some of us can only say about our own personal experiences; again you write, 'the fact that the assessment report was so inaccurate has made me go through the (utterly useless) Mandatory Reconsideration process.' Well I went through a Mandatory Reconsideration, & had my award increased to what I felt was the correct level, so it works for some people.
    It's not the fact that the assessment report was inaccurate that meant you didn't get the award you feel correct, but that you didn't write something different to better explain the difficulties you faced, as has been painstakingly mentioned by several here.
    Also, IMHO, if a person is in pain they can describe it as I've tried to say before.

  • DuffersMumDuffersMum Member Posts: 119 Pioneering
    chiarieds said:
    @DuffersMum - You write, 'Honestly it’s like banging your head against a wall.' I couldn't agree with you more. 
    You have been given the best possible advice, which you unfortunately choose to ignore.
    Some of us can only say about our own personal experiences; again you write, 'the fact that the assessment report was so inaccurate has made me go through the (utterly useless) Mandatory Reconsideration process.' Well I went through a Mandatory Reconsideration, & had my award increased to what I felt was the correct level, so it works for some people.
    It's not the fact that the assessment report was inaccurate that meant you didn't get the award you feel correct, but that you didn't write something different to better explain the difficulties you faced, as has been painstakingly mentioned by several here.
    Also, IMHO, if a person is in pain they can describe it as I've tried to say before.

    I have not ignored any of the advice I have been given, I’ve taken it all on board and thanked the people who have given it.  I have included lots of examples of my pain in my appeal stuff, I hope the panel take some notice of it, what more can I do.

    just because I don’t agree that the DWP can do no wrong, or that people disagree when I say the HCP was useless and totally fabricated her report, doesn’t mean I’m not allowed my opinion.  I worked for the DWP for many years, I know exactly how they do things.

    it seems that if you don’t agree with champions etc on here you get shouted down and told you are ignoring everything that’s written.  I can understand why people post once and never return.

    so thanks again for all the help, I won’t be posting again.
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    I'm sorry you feel that way. Most of those that have given you advice here are not Community Champions, the only exception to that is myself.

    I have to agree with the others that you do seem to have ignored all the advice you've been given but it's your hearing, so you must do what you think is right. Although i still don't quite understand your reasons for requesting the Tribunal when it's just based on principal, as you stated yourself that you're happy with the award you have.

    I'm not sure what working for DWP in the past has to do with your PIP decision because decision makers do not write assessment reports. They are nothing at all to do with DWP.

    I wish you good luck with the Tribunal.
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • CressidaCressida Member Posts: 694 Pioneering
    chiarieds said:
    @DuffersMum - You write, 'Honestly it’s like banging your head against a wall.' I couldn't agree with you more. 
    You have been given the best possible advice, which you unfortunately choose to ignore.
    Some of us can only say about our own personal experiences; again you write, 'the fact that the assessment report was so inaccurate has made me go through the (utterly useless) Mandatory Reconsideration process.' Well I went through a Mandatory Reconsideration, & had my award increased to what I felt was the correct level, so it works for some people.
    It's not the fact that the assessment report was inaccurate that meant you didn't get the award you feel correct, but that you didn't write something different to better explain the difficulties you faced, as has been painstakingly mentioned by several here.
    Also, IMHO, if a person is in pain they can describe it as I've tried to say before.

    I have not ignored any of the advice I have been given, I’ve taken it all on board and thanked the people who have given it.  I have included lots of examples of my pain in my appeal stuff, I hope the panel take some notice of it, what more can I do.

    just because I don’t agree that the DWP can do no wrong, or that people disagree when I say the HCP was useless and totally fabricated her report, doesn’t mean I’m not allowed my opinion.  I worked for the DWP for many years, I know exactly how they do things.

    it seems that if you don’t agree with champions etc on here you get shouted down and told you are ignoring everything that’s written.  I can understand why people post once and never return.

    so thanks again for all the help, I won’t be posting again.
    @DuffersMum sorry you feel this way, this forum is a friendly place where people come to look for advice (mainly) or to offer advice to others in similar situations. I don't think anyone has posted that the DWP can do no wrong and nobody is suggesting that your opinion is not valid. Of course that works both ways, just because you had a bad experience it doesn't mean everyone else has. In my case I was also outraged that the HCP had missed things I said or said things I felt were inaccurate but when I realised my award was 'fair' I accepted that the HCP's are only human and I for one wouldn't want their job in a million years. I did feel your constant negativity about the process would have been quite upsetting for anyone waiting for their f2f. Please read back through your comments and see how people have tried to support you with suggestions going forward before you decide to label everyone on here. By the way I am just a poster the same as you not a champion of any sort. 
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